WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Bob Jewett said:
The term "deflection" for the effect is technically incorrect. Only recently has its cause been well understood. In England they seem to call it "throw" and it used to be called "throw-off" which complicates things because "throw" means something else in the US.
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The vast majority of players here play English 8 ball, with a smattering of snooker players. I have never heard of anyone playing those games who's even discussed deflection, let alone know chapter and verse on it. It certainly isn't known as 'throw', but snooker commentators, for instance, will often say "the ball has been thrown off line by the side (English)", which can mean deflection, swerve or throw, I guess.

What I'm trying to say is there's no specific term for it that is widely used - it is what it is and people just get on with it and adjust to it subconsciously. I'd never heard of deflection or throw until i joined this forum and I know damn good players, including world champions, who don't really know what they are. Feel and memory muscle are more important than physics and mathematics, I think.

The few hundred serious 9 ball players will be more aware of the concepts discussed ad infinitum on this site, however, but even then, many will play with a predator because they think it is a better cue, not because it is the lowest deflector.
 
TheThaiger said:
Amongst many others. Yet I come up with a nice complimentary one for him in return, praising his typing skills, and get banned for it.

Justice? Not in this ole world.
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Yup, and you "praised" the gender of females in the process. Life is tough for a shamble, I tell ya.
 
Seek to "throw" balls in, not "thow" balls out. CJ Wiley

TheThaiger said:
The vast majority of players here play English 8 ball, with a smattering of snooker players. I have never heard of anyone playing those games who's even discussed deflection, let alone know chapter and verse on it. It certainly isn't known as 'throw', but snooker commentators, for instance, will often say "the ball has been thrown off line by the side (English)", which can mean deflection, swerve or throw, I guess.

What I'm trying to say is there's no specific term for it that is widely used - it is what it is and people just get on with it and adjust to it subconsciously. I'd never heard of deflection or throw until i joined this forum and I know damn good players, including world champions, who don't really know what they are. Feel and memory muscle are more important than physics and mathematics, I think.

The few hundred serious 9 ball players will be more aware of the concepts discussed ad infinitum on this site, however, but even then, many will play with a predator because they think it is a better cue, not because it is the lowest deflector.
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The throwing/deflection is like anything else someone focuses too much on - It gets worse the more you think about it.

The main thing to be leery of is the dreaded "skid". This is a real danger and to prevent it you must hit balls firmer when cutting them in. That's another reason I use the "Touch" of Inside and hit everything a bit firmer. To AVOID skidding the balls.

For some reason I noticed at the Tunica tournament that balls skid more on the Diamond Tables. I'm not sure why it was so bad at that tournament. I'm not sure if it was the cloth, balls, dirt, humidity, or what it was, but SEVERAL balls skidded on me and I saw it happen to other players even worse.

The main thing with "throw" or whatever you want to call it is to control it and make it your "friend", not your "enemy". Either accept it, embrace it, and control it, or be at it's mercy, it's your choice. If you choose to try to avoid this issue it will come up when you least want it or expect it.

Seek to "throw" ball in, not "thow" balls out. CJ Wiley
 
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CJ Wiley said:
That clears some things up for me, BoB, thanks. We used to use "throw" and deflection, but the squirt/swerve/slide were just slang words that could be used a variety of ways

There's really only a few themes and variations on spin/deflection and if you jump the ball you can get another couple of deviations. It's just never been any part of conversations I've had with other players. Only on this Forum do they seem particularly important.

It's just comical to use some of these words in describing pool shots.

I would think sliding could mean something else besides "not rolling smoothly on the cloth", and it brings to mind the "new cloth effect".

Maybe since some of these words are 100 years old we could coin some new phrases and words. Who knows, they may have started out in a jokingly manner and just "caught on". :thumbup:
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Let me get this right....you don't know the language, and are unwilling to learn it, so you want to make up a new language?? If that isn't the definition of ignorance and arrogance, I don't know what is. You get caught with your pants down, and instead of just pulling them up, you want everyone else to pull theirs down too. That sure fits your definition of the "emperor has no clothes" statements.:rolleyes: You spent years learning how "to do", maybe it's about time you spent a little time learning how "to talk so others understand you".
 
im really liking the pinning the ball technique CJ, it comes in very handy when when precision english is needed in tight spots! great technique for 14-1 players, i bet! I now divide the tip up into an "octagon" it feels like i am cutting into the cue ball.
 
ENGLISH! said:
dr_dave said:
That's correct. With a gearing amount of outside english, the CB rolls against the OB during contact instead of sliding. Because there is no sliding, there is no throw or spin transfer.

The term "gearing" is used (and has been for a long time) because while the CB is in contact with the OB, the balls rotate together with no relative sliding motion between them, as if they had gear teeth preventing the sliding. In other words, while the balls are in contact, the motion looks like that of meshing gears rotating together. Being a mechanical engineer, I've always liked this metaphorical analogy, but I can see how if somebody hadn't learned about the term before, it might be misunderstood or misinterpreted.
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Thanks Dave,
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You're welcome.

ENGLISH! said:
However, I thought that it is was explained earlier that the term 'gearing' was the term being used because it was the appropriate amount of spin to counteract the collision induced throw & place no spin transfer onto the OB.
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That is correct. This is one use of the word "gearing," when used in the phrase "gearing outside english." Although, in this case, one "gear" (the OB) is stationary and the other "gear" (the CB) is rotating around as it "meshes" (like a planet gear rotating around the sun gear in a planetary gear drive).

ENGLISH! said:
The highlighted portions above refer to the balls 'rotating together' while 'the motion looks like meshing gears (plural) rotating together'.

That's my point of the term being counterintuitive, as it implies two(2) circular objects rotating in opposite directions.
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Another use of the term "gearing" in pool is "gearing spin," where the CB and OB are rotating in opposite directions with no relative sliding between the ball surfaces. This happens with small-cut angle shots (and with outside english shots with slightly less or slightly more than a gearing amount of outside english). During contact, there is sliding at first (because the CB does not have "gearing outside english"), but the sliding transfers enough spin to the OB, at which point the sliding stops (all during contact). At this point, the balls are "geared" together turning in opposite directions without any sliding between the balls.

In summary, the term "gearing" is used to indicate any situation where the motion and/or spin of the balls is such that there is no relative tangential sliding motion between the ball surfaces.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
naji said:
I always said, at slow speed or stun shooting with english there will be throw with or without english
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... unless there is a gearing amount of outside english, in which case there is absolutely no throw.

naji said:
At medium to high speed shooting with top rolling there will be no throw with either english or center top
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There is throw with any cut shot that doesn't have gearing outside english. The amount of throw is less at faster speeds (except at small cut angles) and/or with lots of inside english and/or with top or bottom spin, but there still is throw.

Regards,
Dave
 
The name of the game at the championship level is reducing unnecessary calculations.

Yes, the angles you are dealing with are more consitent because you aren't altering them with outside spin. I see players go through a rack spinning AND hitting the ball differently on every shot. This will work in the short term, and will break down over time.

The name of the game at the championship level is reducing unnecessary calculations. This means SPEED and SPIN and controlling how the cue ball influences the object ball.

If you try to hit the same type shot every chance you get and MAKE the table play your game you will develop a new confidence. No longer will you care how the balls are laying or the difficulty level.

You will play every shot as if they are "just a shot" and find a way to make the table conform to your style of play. Just like in other things in life that we've found is the opposite of "common sense", playing the "easiest" shot with the "correct" spin is NOT the most effective way to play.

Watch some video of legendary Buddy Hall play. He seems to hit the ball the same speed every time. Of course there's exceptions where he slow rolls a ball or spins it to either curve it or change the angle off the rail.

Before long every shot will seem like a "straight in shot" if you make it that way (mentally of course). Try hitting actual straight in long shot with different speeds and spins and see how consistant you are. I understand that angled shots are different, but I'm just making an example of how precision is achieved. "By shooting your best shot as much as possible."

So, to learn this you must try to hit the same type shot and speed. This is something I encourage you to experiment with. The way I do it is to cue the ball slightly to the inside EVERY time to get the FEEL FOR IT (play 9Ball like this for 2-3 hours straight). Once you understand better how the cue ball responds it will open up a new way of playing and looking at pool. When I say cue it inside I do mean continue to use high, middle and low, you're just ALWAYS favoring the inside for this particular training.

Again, you don't try to spin it, you just let the cue go STRAIGHT through the ball and watch the effect on the object ball. The object ball is what you watch after contact, NOT the cue ball.
 
talk about how to make balls while others talk about a hundered ways they miss

TheThaiger said:
The vast majority of players here play English 8 ball, with a smattering of snooker players. I have never heard of anyone playing those games who's even discussed deflection, let alone know chapter and verse on it. It certainly isn't known as 'throw', but snooker commentators, for instance, will often say "the ball has been thrown off line by the side (English)", which can mean deflection, swerve or throw, I guess.

What I'm trying to say is there's no specific term for it that is widely used - it is what it is and people just get on with it and adjust to it subconsciously. I'd never heard of deflection or throw until i joined this forum and I know damn good players, including world champions, who don't really know what they are. Feel and memory muscle are more important than physics and mathematics, I think.

The few hundred serious 9 ball players will be more aware of the concepts discussed ad infinitum on this site, however, but even then, many will play with a predator because they think it is a better cue, not because it is the lowest deflector.
Click to expand...

So do snooker players talk about how "throw" causes them to play poorly?

Is there anyone getting any better focusing on what "can go wrong" in a pool shot? The laws of suggestion seem to indicate that if we focus too much on one aspect of life it will magnify.

No wonder some players talk about how to make balls while others talk about a hundered ways they miss.
 
hit most of your shots the same speed and your game will jump up

Pay Up Sucker said:
im really liking the pinning the ball technique CJ, it comes in very handy when when precision english is needed in tight spots! great technique for 14-1 players, i bet! I now divide the tip up into an "octagon" it feels like i am cutting into the cue ball.
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Yes, this is the secret to hitting powerful "kill shots" and "stunning" the cue ball instead of "slow rolling" it.

Find a way to hit most of your shots the same speed and your game will jump up and so will your confidence in dealing with difficult table layouts.
 
CJ Wiley said:
...We've (myself and all "Road Players" that I know) played all over the country for MANY years and NEVER heard the verbage that's used on this Forum with any regularity. Most of it doesn't even apply to playing, gambling, reaching your "Highest Speed", Competing or Winning in Pool.
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CJ,

That doesn't surprise me one bit because most road players don't read and/or write pool instructional materials or communicate often with pool instructors and students of the game.

I like all of the road and gambling phrases and terms too. In fact, I have many of them defined in my online glossary of pool terms and phrases (in addition to all of the terms and phrases used in standard pool instructional materials). However, the road/gambling terms and phrases don't provide enough vocabulary to describe all of the intricacies of the game or the physics behind the game. You don't need to know this language to be a top player, but you certainly need to have an intuitive feel for the physics effects to play well. The language also helps when communicating with others in an instructional setting or in written material read by others who know and appreciate the language.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Pay Up Sucker said:
dont worry CJ, there are only about 10 people in the world that discuss that verbage, we unfortunately have about 8 of them here on AZ lol :D
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Let me sum it up for those that can't handle actually using language....just whack da sucker in da hole. There, that's today's lesson for you. I realize it's just not the same without adding a picture of myself in each post, but, it is what it is.
 
Neil, just to help you out, from Wikipedia:

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder[1] in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. This condition affects one percent of the population.[2][3] First formulated in 1968, it was historically called megalomania, and it is closely linked to egocentrism.
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dr_dave said:
CJ,

That doesn't surprise me one bit because most road players don't read and/or write pool instructional materials or communicate often with pool instructors and students of the game.

I like all of the road and gambling phrases and terms too. In fact, I have many of them defined in my online glossary of pool terms and phrases (in addition to all of the terms and phrases used in standard pool instructional materials). However, the road/gambling terms and phrases don't provide enough vocabulary to describe all of the intricacies of the game or the physics behind the game. You don't need to know this language to be a top player, but you certainly need to have an intuitive feel for the physics effects to play well. The language also helps when communicating with others in an instructional setting or in written material read by others who know and appreciate the language.

Regards,
Dave
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I agree, Dave. Plus, I think it's terminology that any instructor should want to learn if they expect to communicate well with those students who are studying pool in today's world.

Roger
 
gear effect? When you hit a golf club anywhere but the middle of the face

Pay Up Sucker said:
dont worry CJ, there are only about 10 people in the world that discuss that verbage, we unfortunately have about 8 of them here on AZ lol :D
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Who are the other 2? LoL




All about Gear Effect



Too many questions have come up recently that require knowing about gear effect. Not just hand-waving and intuitive explanation, but the ability to estimate numbers. I can't put it off any longer; I have to do the homework.

First of all, what is gear effect? When you hit a golf club anywhere but the middle of the face, the clubhead will twist. With drivers and fairway woods, the twist will impart the opposite twist to the ball. That is, if the clubhead rotates clockwise, the ball's spin will be counter-clockwise -- just like two gears meshing. Sounds a bit arcane, but it is responsible for all sorts of interesting things, like adjustable weight screws that claim to cause a draw or fade, and the advice that a driver's "sweet spot" is high on the face.

This article presents an analysis that allows answering questions like:
How much weight needs to be moved to actually induce a draw or fade (e.g.- the screw weights you see on drivers)?
Does shaft torque have any impact on resisting gear effect?
Can you really get more distance by hitting the ball high on the clubface?
Dana Upshaw reported that he greatly decreased a long-drive competitor's spin by going to a flexible tip and lower loft. Vertical gear effect is the only way I could imagine to get the sort of results that Dana got, but it requires that the shaft's tip stiffness be a major factor in how much gear effect there is. So how does shaft stiffness influence vertical gear effect?
I am updating my article on optimizing the launch parameters for real drivers. It requires knowing whether vertical gear effect provides enough spin reduction to make a significant difference in distance.
All these questions require a quantitative knowledge about gear effect. Not precise knowledge perhaps, but at least good ballpark estimates. This article, after a tutorial introduction to gear effect, presents the results of analysis in a summary form. The subsequent pages present the analysis itself, and detailed answers to the interesting questions, along with more diagrams and photos.
 
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