WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

If people want to see what this looks like with pool balls, the following video illustrates and explains it fairly well:
Hi Dave,

So it's more of a 'rolling effect' than an actual 'gear effect' because the center of the spin is not stationary or near stationary. The center of the CB spin is traveling along the tangent line, hence the CB is 'rolling on the OB' hence applying no or little collision induce throw. Is that correct or nearly correct?

Thanks in advance,
That's correct. With a gearing amount of outside english, the CB rolls against the OB during contact instead of sliding. Because there is no sliding, there is no throw or spin transfer.

The term "gearing" is used (and has been for a long time) because while the CB is in contact with the OB, the balls rotate together with no relative sliding motion between them, as if they had gear teeth preventing the sliding. In other words, while the balls are in contact, the motion looks like that of meshing gears rotating together. Being a mechanical engineer, I've always liked this metaphorical analogy, but I can see how if somebody hadn't learned about the term before, it might be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Regards,
Dave
 
Gearing english is used to prevent transferred spin and throw, which are caused by the balls' surfaces rubbing (sliding) against each other.

Very helpful information.

So, if I understand this correctly, a bit of outside helps you cinch the shot, while a "touch" of inside might give you better CB control off a rail?
 
The term "gearing" is used (and has been for a long time) because while the CB is in contact with the OB, the balls rotate together with no relative sliding motion between them, as if they had gear teeth preventing the sliding.

In another metaphor, I like to look at follow as a sort of rack and pinion gearing, with the table bed being the rack and the CB being the pinion gear. Helps to explain why you aren't really over-spinning the CB, even when you practically scalp the top of it. One gear is just rolling over the other like in this animation:
 

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The term "gearing" is used (and has been for a long time) because while the CB is in contact with the OB, the balls rotate together with no relative sliding motion between them, as if they had gear teeth preventing the sliding. In other words, while the balls are in contact, the motion looks like that of meshing gears rotating together. Being a mechanical engineer, I've always liked this metaphorical analogy, but I can see how if somebody hadn't learned about the term before, it might be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dave,

However, I thought that it is was explained earlier that the term 'gearing' was the term being used because it was the appropriate amount of spin to counteract the collision induced throw & place no spin transfer onto the OB. The highlighted portions above refer to the balls 'rotating together' while 'the motion looks like meshing gears (plural) rotating together'.

That's my point of the term being counterintuitive, as it implies two(2) circular objects rotating in opposite directions.

I am familiar with the term as it is applied to the 'gear effect' cause by an off center hit of the curved face of a 'wood' golf club hitting a golf ball & thus applying side spin to the golf ball.

I am not inclined to argue a difference of opinion on whether or not the metephor is applicable. I am merely pointing out the possible misunderstanding it could create with individuals that have a common knowledge of 'gears'.

Best Regards with Appreciation,
 
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Nowhere did I write "gearing inside english." That makes no sense whatsoever. The term "gearing" refers only to the amount of outside (not inside) english that results in absolutely no throw. Here's the definition from my online glossary of pool terms:
gearing outside English: the amount of outside English that results in no sliding between the cue ball and object ball during contact. Instead, during contact, the CB rolls on the OB like two meshing gears. The result is no throw.​
Much more info (including video demonstrations) can be found here:
Check out this page (including the videos) if you haven't done so yet. It might help clear some stuff up.

Regards,
Dave

Sorry Dave, Bank brought up earlier to my attention, you said outside all along my bad.

I always said, at slow speed or stun shooting with english there will be throw with or without english
At medium to high speed shooting with top rolling there will be no throw with either english or center top
 
"Dead Stroke" "The Zone" "Power Pins" "Power Draws" "Force Follows" "Roll Out"

Thanks Dave,

However, I thought that is was explained earlier that the term 'gearing' was the term being used because it was the appropriate amount of spin to counteract the collision induced throw & place no spin transfer onto the OB. The highlighted portions above refer to the balls 'rotating together' while 'the motion looks like meshing gears (plural) rotating together'.

That's my point of the term being counterintuitive, as it implies two(2) circular objects rotating in opposite directions.

I am familiar with the term as it is applied to the 'gear effect' cause by an off center hit of the curved face of a 'wood' golf club hitting a golf ball & thus applying side spin to the golf ball.

I am not inclined to arguing a difference of opinion on whether or not the metephor is applicable. I am merely pointing out the possible misunderstanding it could create with individuals that have a common knowledge of 'gears'.

Best Regards with Appreciation,


"Swerve, Squirt, "Sliding", "Nut Hugger", "Veer", "Induced Throw", "Meshing Gears", "Pinion Gears", Spin Ratios, and now 'Gear Effect":shrug: ...???

No wonder {The Game} doesn't have the Power,Thrill and Adventure it had in the 80s and 90s. Let's change the terminology to "Dead Stroke" "The Zone" "Power Pins" "Power Draws" "Force Follows" "Roll Out" "Ahead Sets" "Stake Horses" "High Dollar Matche$", "High Speed", "Tush Hog", etc.

We've (myself and all "Road Players" that I know) played all over the country for MANY years and NEVER heard the verbage that's used on this Forum with any regularity. Most of it doesn't even apply to playing, gambling, reaching your "Highest Speed", Competing or Winning in Pool.

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CLINTEASTWOOD.CLASSICWESTERN.jpg
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CJ,

I hear you. I have only been on AZB since June when I came on to buy a couple of shafts. One has to learn a whole different vernacular & when in Rome, speak Italian.

Regards,

PS What type & hardness of tip do you prefer & why, if you don't mind?
 
I use Tips called Xcaliber.

CJ,

I hear you. I have only been on AZB since June when I came on to buy a couple of shafts. One has to learn a whole different vernacular & when in Rome, speak Italian.

Regards,

PS What type & hardness of tip do you prefer & why, if you don't mind?

I know, but who chose these words? Can't they be less.......well, you know .... I don't think you could imagine Paul Newman and Jackie Gleason using these words. And NONE of the older Champions would ever say "squirt" about anything that applies to pool. LoL

I use Tips called Xcaliber.....they're difficult to get, but I have some if anyone's curious. They're like the "Kbrand", only less expensive.
 
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CJ,

Thanks. I would guess that you prefer a harder than medium tip. Am I correct? Either way could you elaborate a bit on tip hardness & why? There are a few asking about tips in other threads & I'm fairly sure your ideas would be welcome.

Thanks in advance,
 
"Swerve, Squirt, "Sliding", "Nut Hugger", "Veer", "Induced Throw", "Meshing Gears", "Pinion Gears", Spin Ratios, and now 'Gear Effect":shrug: ...???

No wonder {The Game} doesn't have the Power,Thrill and Adventure it had in the 80s and 90s. Let's change the terminology to "Dead Stroke" "The Zone" "Power Pins" "Power Draws" "Force Follows" "Roll Out" "Ahead Sets" "Stake Horses" "High Dollar Matche$", "High Speed", "Tush Hog", etc.

We've (myself and all "Road Players" that I know) played all over the country for MANY years and NEVER heard the verbage that's used on this Forum with any regularity. Most of it doesn't even apply to playing, gambling, reaching your "Highest Speed", Competing or Winning in Pool.



Actually, it all applies to playing at a high speed. It just isn't necessary to know to play at a high speed. It's very important to know for anyone that wants to actually teach the game. Because if you don't know it, then you start making things up that really don't apply to explain what you think might be happening instead of actually knowing what is happening.

Knowledge about the game has advanced a lot in the last 10-15 years while you were gone. Maybe it's time to "catch up" instead of just knocking what you don't know about yet.???
 
Go to Dr.Dave's website.Dave is an engineering professor by profession.

High speed video doesn't lie and creates situations that require descriptive wording especially for teaching or for discussion.
 
"there's nothing new under the sun"

Go to Dr.Dave's website.Dave is an engineering professor by profession.

High speed video doesn't lie and creates situations that require descriptive wording especially for teaching or for discussion.

I appreciate the work people have put into this matter.

My only point was "who chose the words?" squirt/swerve/sliding? just curious, that's all, "there's nothing new under the sun".....except some of these words. :wink:

None of these concepts are new, just re worded. My question is simple: Who re worded them, does anyone know?
 
here's some words used by "RoadPlayers", in case you want to "speak their language".

CJ,

I hear you. I have only been on AZB since June when I came on to buy a couple of shafts. One has to learn a whole different vernacular & when in Rome, speak Italian.

Here's some words used by "RoadPlayers", in case you want to "speak their language".

I'll do some research and find out what technical terms are used by the older generation of players for these technical pool discussions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George- Word that means something is good. “the movie was george” or “the game is george” We also use double george to mean really good. This can be signaled to another roadplayer by putting their hand over their chest.
Tom- The opposite of george and simply means something is bad. If the game is a tom game then you shouldn’t play. This can be signaled by brushing your nose with your finger. Double tom for emphasis.
Stalling or laying down- playing “under your speed” , missing balls on purpose or anything to make yourself appear to play less than you really do.
Lemon or lemonade- losing on purpose with the intention of coming back at a later time to beat either the person you played or someone else. Enables you to bet higher because someone already saw you lose and underrates your game. Lemons require you to stall.
Jar- means to put something in someones drink to make them play bad and lose. Even if a drink hasn’t been opened it can be jarred by shooting the substance in the bottle or can with an insulin needle or syringe.
Spotbook- the book that you keep the names and personal information about someone that tells how to beat them out of the most money, how much they will bet, how much they can be spotted, what they look like, where they play, what game they like and don’t like, and anything else that will help win the maximum money off of them.
Spotsheet- a piece of paper with all the information you need for a certain location that has information on everyone in the room that has to do with gambling.
Mark- someone that has been targeted to be hustled or conned
Chip- used in reference to drugs that keep you up (amphetamines)
Shortstop- someone that thinks they play well but are not capable of beating any real players.
Steerman- someone that tells roadplayers where they can go to win money and gives them the information that goes in their spotbook. A good steerman will make 20% of the winnings for giving a good “steer”.
Stakehorse or backer- someone that puts up the money for a player and usually will split the winnings with the player 50-50 or 60-40 depending on the statis of the player and how desperate he is for action.
Bankroll- refers to the money that you have to gamble with. Most gamblers will keep a “roll” of money in their front pocket for show.
Flash- to show a potential mark a roll of money seemingly unintentially.
Nit- someone that is tight with their money and “won’t bet fat meat is greasy.” “no gambling nit”
Nose open- refers to when a sucker is beyond the point of no return and is chasing his money trying to win it back, but is in a trap and will probably lose all he has and all he can borrow.
Sucker- a loser or someone that always finds a way to lose his money.
Scuffler- someone that hangs around bars or pool rooms looking for suckers that can’t possibly win. They usually make most of their living doing this.
Roadplayer- the premier pool hustlers. They may go years without losing because they play really well and always know who they are playing before they play. They always have spotbooks and access to the best steermen.
Going off- means losing most if not all of your money gambling
Sharking- to intentially try to distract your opponent by either saying something or doing something while they are shooting a shot.
Double steer- to give someone a steer to play a certain game, but actually being in with the other person. This is common among hustlers and stakehorses, especially in the big city pool rooms.
Double steer lemon- Pretending to set up a double steer, but actually being in with the first guy for the purpose of getting someone else into a game. Because of the double steer format the winning player would have to split the money with the person setting it up and if it is really a lemon then you are appearing to lose twice as much as you really are and you have the player thinking that he has really won and will tell people that are in with him so that they might get caught up in a future game. This is only done by experienced roadplayers and hustlers.
Dump- to lose a stakehorses money on purpose and splitting it with the player later at a secret meeting place.
Knockers - People that tell others the level of players game so they won't play. Knockers do this to feel important and useful, but as a result keep the action in a pool room to a bare minimum. Knockers are hated by road players.
Detectives - They are like knockers, but sometimes use all the information they come up with to gamble themselves. They know how everyone in town plays and are useful to hustlers because they give them information...sometimes for free, but usually want a "piece of the action" in return.

* From CJ Wiley's Blog on AZ Billiards
 
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I appreciate the work people have put into this matter.

My only point was "who chose the words?" squirt/swerve/sliding? just curious, that's all, "there's nothing new under the sun".....except some of these words. :wink:

None of these concepts are new, just re worded. My question is simple: Who re worded them, does anyone know?
The best source for information about the sources/uses of pool/billiard/snooker words is Mike Shamos's "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards" which you can get delivered to your house for under $10.

The term "squirt" seems to have been coined by Jack Leavitt prior to 1978 when Byrne described it in his "Standard Book of Pool and Billiards" and used Jack's term. That the effect was known long before is clear because diagrams illustrating back-hand english date back to 1839 and Shamos points out a source that described it but did not name it in 1806. The term "deflection" for the effect is technically incorrect. Only recently has its cause been well understood. In England they seem to call it "throw" and it used to be called "throw-off" which complicates things because "throw" means something else in the US.

Swerve is traced back to the prolific British author Riso Levi who put the name in print in 1912. Although it is mostly a British term, it has been adopted on forums in the place of "curve" to describe half-masse shots and shallower.

Sliding -- meaning not rolling smoothly on the cloth -- is a little more obvious, I think, and Shamos refers to Hoppe's book, "Billiards As It Should Be Played" (1941). Shamos points out that it also applies to the wide arc that balls take when banked off newly-recovered cushions.

As for them being re-worded ... which other words do you think have priority?
 
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ENGLISH!
That's my point of the term being counterintuitive, as it implies two(2) circular objects rotating in opposite directions.

I am familiar with the term as it is applied to the 'gear effect' cause by an off center hit of the curved face of a 'wood' golf club hitting a golf ball & thus applying side spin to the golf ball.
You apparently have no trouble with the term for golf, but there aren't two circular objects rotating in opposite directions there either.

I think maybe you're a contrarian (look up "euphemism").

pj
chgo
 
You apparently have no trouble with the term for golf, but there aren't two circular objects rotating in opposite directions there either.

I think maybe you're a contrarian (look up "euphemism").

pj
chgo

Careful, doesn't TheThaiger have that one trademarked, courtesy of Sean?

:grin:
 
You apparently have no trouble with the term for golf, but there aren't two circular objects rotating in opposite directions there either.

I think maybe you're a contrarian (look up "euphemism").

pj
chgo

PJ,

Are you implying that you are using the word 'contrarian' as a euphemism for something more offensive or were you referring back to the 'gearing' term?

In golf the club is traveling on an arch & its' 'motion' is similiar to an opposite 'gear' relative to the spin/rotation it puts on the golf ball even though the center of 'gravity' & center of rotation are moving & not stationary.

As I said, I am not inclined to 'argue' the applicability of the 'metaphor'. I was merely attempting to clear up the vernacular & point out the possible confusion it could create to those individuals with plain, simple, common knowledge of 'gears' rotating in opposite directions.

To me, the term 'gearing' is counterintuitive & perhaps 'throw nuetralizing english/spin' would be a better desciption. 'Gearing' seems to more appropriately describe 'spin transfer'.

It seemed that Mr. Naji was posssibly having a bit of a problem with the terminology.

When I make a definite judgment as to just what I 'think' you are, perhaps I wll assign the appropriate word to you or maybe I'll use an euphemism

Have a good evening.
 
ENGLISH!
When I make a definite judgment as to just what I 'think' you are, perhaps I wll assign the appropriate word to you or maybe I'll use an euphemism.
Gee, wouldn't wanna miss that. Maybe someone will quote it for me.

pj
chgo
 
Who knows, they may have started out in a jokingly manner and just "caught on".

The best source for information about the sources/uses of pool/billiard/snooker words is Mike Shamos's "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards" which you can get delivered to your house for under $10.

The term "squirt" seems to have been coined by Jack Leavitt prior to 1978 when Byrne described it in his "Standard Book of Pool and Billiards" and used Jack's term. That the effect was known long before is clear because diagrams illustrating back-hand english date back to 1839 and Shamos points out a source that described it but did not name it in 1806. The term "deflection" for the effect is technically incorrect. Only recently has its cause been well understood. In England they seem to call it "throw" and it used to be called "throw-off" which complicates things because "throw" means something else in the US.

Swerve is traced back to the prolific British author Riso Levi who put the name in print in 1912. Although it is mostly a British term, it has been adopted on forums in the place of "curve" to describe half-masse shots and shallower.

Sliding -- meaning not rolling smoothly on the cloth -- is a little more obvious, I think, and Shamos refers to Hoppe's book, "Billiards As It Should Be Played" (1941). Shamos points out that it also applies to the wide arc that balls take when banked off newly-recovered cushions.

As for them being re-worded ... which other words do you think have priority?

That clears some things up for me, BoB, thanks. We used to use "throw" and deflection, but the squirt/swerve/slide were just slang words that could be used a variety of ways

There's really only a few themes and variations on spin/deflection and if you jump the ball you can get another couple of deviations. It's just never been any part of conversations I've had with other players. Only on this Forum do they seem particularly important.

It's just comical to use some of these words in describing pool shots.

I would think sliding could mean something else besides "not rolling smoothly on the cloth", and it brings to mind the "new cloth effect".

Maybe since some of these words are 100 years old we could coin some new phrases and words. Who knows, they may have started out in a jokingly manner and just "caught on". :thumbup:
 
Gee, wouldn't wanna miss that. Maybe someone will quote it for me.

pj
chgo

I heard that sound all the way over here, Pat... <plonk!>.

I don't like rummaging through the trash, but if the wind blows a little plastic bag tumbleweed across my path, I'll quote it for you.

-Sean <-- wonders if PJ will publish his Ignore list in his .sig?... Nah, Pat's not that OCD by any stretch... :D
 
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