Unknown Case.. production knock off?

[classiccues]

A - not "for" - with. Ask him if he ever worked with Mike Roberts at any time in any capacity? Does he even know Mike personally? Ever spent any time at a show with Mike or been in Mike's shop?

B. - "production" is a relative term. When the cases are all the same exact construction and measurements then they are being produced in a systematic manner than only differs from an assembly line by scale and method.

C - the snap closure is a time honored method of closing cases and much cheaper and easier to install than latches. It also removes the need to put a big hunk of metal right on the front of an otherwise sleek case. Brilliant thought to use a snap like so many other case makers in other fields have done. I am sure that Mike Roberts was quite relieved to see that this Thomas case was not a 1:1 copy of his work but instead a revolutionary improvement.

All this dancing around rather than to simply admit that Ron flat out copied the It's George case???

Just be proud of it. Copied and "improved". That's how I do it when I copy someone, I try to improve on what they did and give them credit for the ideas I took.

Edited to add: Sorry for being a little snarky....touchy subject and not in the best of moods at the moment.

I could care less for your issues and moods. Your accusation of Ron making unmarked Its George cases has no basis in fact and you are taking a swing at him, in the way that only a scumbag would because Ron has no desire to be on AZ and you know it. The fact is his cases had no markings for a while and were never sold as an Its George at anytime.

You know the answer to A, and its no ones business. the fact is he never worked for its george. There is not ONE payroll stub made out to Ron, ever. The association is their business. It will be in Rons memoirs, buy a copy when its published.

B- No, in this case as everyone reading knows, production meaning production line environment. He does not and hever did that. Each Thomas case is made one at a time, by Ron Thomas, by hand. He does get a little help from his wife.

C- Ron Thomas put the snap on that type of case to hold the lid in place before anyone else. So its his design in reference to this case.

So whats actually been learned here... Anyone that wants to talk to Ron and ask him directly can call him, his number is on his website. The second thing that is known throughout the industry is John will do anything, to smear someone else.

If Mike Howerton had any sense, he would call Ron, and verify the story, then ban you for life, for being such a lowlife. You haven't been back 3 months and you start sh*t like this.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

I could care less for your issues and moods. Your accusation of Ron making unmarked Its George cases has no basis in fact and you are taking a swing at him, in the way that only a scumbag would because Ron has no desire to be on AZ and you know it. The fact is his cases had no markings for a while and were never sold as an Its George at anytime.

I never said that Ron Thomas made unmarked It's George cases. Nor did I imply that. That would be theft and I never said that, hinted at it or otherwise made any comment that could reasonably be construed as saying that Ron Thomas used It's George parts to make It's George cases without permission.

I also never ever ever ever said that Ron or anyone else sold the cases he made as It's George or that he ever attempted to pass them off as It's George cases.

Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth Joe.

You know the answer to A, and its no ones business. the fact is he never worked for its george. There is not ONE payroll stub made out to Ron, ever. The association is their business. It will be in Rons memoirs, buy a copy when its published.

Once again you are mincing words. I asserted that Ron worked WITH It's George/Mike Roberts. You know like hung out with, helped out from time to time, was familiar WITH the way things were done, where supplies were bought that sort of thing. I only asked if Ron had ever worked WITH Mike Roberts in any way.

B- No, in this case as everyone reading knows, production meaning production line environment. He does not and hever did that. Each Thomas case is made one at a time, by Ron Thomas, by hand. He does get a little help from his wife.

Ok, we can agree to disagree. Next time I bake a batch of cookies and I use a cookie cutter to form them I will tell everyone that each cookie was lovingly made one at a time by hand.

C- Ron Thomas put the snap on that type of case to hold the lid in place before anyone else. So its his design in reference to this case.

Yes, he added a snap to a lid on a container. Like thousands and millions of case makers before him. Made a major difference in the case between his case and It's George.

So whats actually been learned here... Anyone that wants to talk to Ron and ask him directly can call him, his number is on his website. The second thing that is known throughout the industry is John will do anything, to smear someone else.

I didn't start the thread. The thread was started by someone else who said that they heard that a "well respected" case maker made knockoffs for a while. That turns out to be 100% true as Ron Thomas did in fact make It's George knockoffs for a while, then he moved to Centennial knockoffs which is what he makes today. A knockoff is a product that is in design and function substantially like another product which came before it. I know that I don't need to tell you this but perhaps some of the readers are unclear.

There is no smear. Ron did this and continues to do it. Just like Fellini knocked off the Gina Cases, and Centennial knocked off Fellini, and Engles knocked off Fellini as did Bill McDaniel and Schon, and McDermott knocked off Centennial, and It's George knocked off Centennial a bit and Ron Thomas knocked off It's George and Centennial and we knocked off Fellini and Centennial - a long lineage of knockoffs of this nested tube slip cover style of cue case.

In my eyes it's only honest to give credit to your influences and who came before you. They should be honored as the shoulders you stand on if you are building on their work.

If Mike Howerton had any sense, he would call Ron, and verify the story, then ban you for life, for being such a lowlife. You haven't been back 3 months and you start sh*t like this.

JV

Joe, I didn't start anything. This thread was started by someone else. I haven't stated a single thing that isn't true. Mr. Thomas knows that he did in fact work WITH Mike Roberts from time to time. We can call several people in Shreveport, longtime members of the billiard industry who all have sterling reputations to verify this fact.

Ron did IN FACT make knockoffs of It's George cases. Not copies, not counterfeits, knockoffs with one design change, the addition of a snap instead of a latch.

And when it comes to starting trouble Joe, may I remind you that the ONLY reason for you to make a quip about "chinese case makers" as you did above was to attempt to incite me to anger. I didn't get angry Joe as I expect this type of thing from you. I know that I have caused this in you by continually pummeling you over the years and for that I do apologize. Even if I were right I had no right to continually fight with you and especially to fight with you in the way I did. But that's water under the bridge and I fully expect that you will harbor ill feelings for a long time and continue to attempt to to draw me into a fight with insults.

With that said Joe, I stated the truth of it. You are a Ron Thomas dealer if I read your site correctly. You are also a bit of a billiards historian. So to me I would think that you would want to honor those who were making cases before Ron Thomas and honor them along with praising Ron for carrying on the legacy and even improving on the cases in his eyes. And in fact you make that connection on your site while Ron on his does not.

"Cases by Ron Thomas
Ron Thomas has been making the Fellini style cue case for over 20 years. That's longer than the original run of cases by Fellini, Centennial and Its George combined. Ron's an expert craftsman and chooses only top materials. The finest tube style case produced TODAY. Furthermore these cases are made right here in the USA, in Louisiana" (if I could make one correction the cases Ron makes are more in the Centennial style than the Fellini style. The Fellini style is done with the hand-folded ends which Ron reportedly refuses to do. GTF Premier cases are done in the Fellini style, I can show a picture if you need it)

And one last little thing. You said Ron stated he hated the latches. I remember that I met Ron at the Super Billiards Expo in the late 90s I think and all of his cases had latches on the front. Heavy duty latches similar to the ones we use on GTF but rectangular. This would have been well after the period of It's George knockoffs shown in this thread. So can you ask Ron if he began to like latches again when he decided to use them? Because I specifically complimented him on those latches and their sturdiness. After all I had my share of latch problems with Instroke and I am completely sympathetic to Ron's reported hatred of latches.

I will try and find a picture of those latches and update the thread. And next time you talk to Ron please tell him a sincere thank you from me. Without him GTF cases would not exist. I am very proud to say that without Ron's push I wouldn't have gotten into this style of case. Because of him I now am able to make a style of case I have always admired greatly and feel honored to have been able to join the long line of great case makers who work in this style.

Have a good day Joe, may peace be with you.

Edited: Found one image so far of a Ron Thomas with the latch I am talking about, will add more as I find them.

Found one: this is the latch I was talking about that Ron used for a while. It's not pretty but damn that was a sturdy one. And it was in use as far as I can tell well after the It's George knockoff style period of Ron's case making.

P.S. It's George cases are also back in business. Maybe someone should ask Mike Roberts what his feelings on Ron Thomas cases were back in the day. I notice you write that Ron has been making cases for 20 years. That means that he started when It's George was in full swing around 1990. I wonder what Mike Roberts thought about his friend starting a case business justy down the road a ways and making essentially the same case? Sounds an awful like how things are done here in China when a brother/partner/friend goes off and opens a competing business making the same product.

Will that be in the memoir as well?

 

[azhousepro]

Just as an fyi, yes I have received the reports of John being out of line and deserving to be banned for this terrible thread.

Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I am not receiving the reports.

Mike

 

[classiccues]

I never said that Ron Thomas made unmarked It's George cases. Nor did I imply that. That would be theft and I never said that, hinted at it or otherwise made any comment that could reasonably be construed as saying that Ron Thomas used It's George parts to make It's George cases without permission.

I also never ever ever ever said that Ron or anyone else sold the cases he made as It's George or that he ever attempted to pass them off as It's George cases.

Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth Joe.

Yes, apparently Ron Thomas made some unmarked knockoffs of It's George and yes this is one of them.

You should read what you write, because you said it. Now you want to wordsmith around it, go ahead. But be a man for once in your life and own something that you mean. Stop being a coward and step up to the plate.

Yes, he added a snap to a lid on a container. Like thousands and millions of case makers before him. Made a major difference in the case between his case and It's George..

Makes the difference in this case.

I didn't start the thread. The thread was started by someone else who said that they heard that a "well respected" case maker made knockoffs for a while. That turns out to be 100% true as Ron Thomas did in fact make It's George knockoffs for a while, then he moved to Centennial knockoffs which is what he makes today. A knockoff is a product that is in design and function substantially like another product which came before it. I know that I don't need to tell you this but perhaps some of the readers are unclear.

Well if anyone knows about knockoffs, its definately you.

Joe, I didn't start anything. This thread was started by someone else. I haven't stated a single thing that isn't true. Mr. Thomas knows that he did in fact work WITH Mike Roberts from time to time. We can call several people in Shreveport, longtime members of the billiard industry who all have sterling reputations to verify this fact..

Again, their past relationship is not anyones business. Nor will I outline what I was told. But your insinuations on what Ron might have picked up is out of line and speculation at best.

And when it comes to starting trouble Joe, may I remind you that the ONLY reason for you to make a quip about "chinese case makers" as you did above was to attempt to incite me to anger. I didn't get angry Joe as I expect this type of thing from you. I know that I have caused this in you by continually pummeling you over the years and for that I do apologize. Even if I were right I had no right to continually fight with you and especially to fight with you in the way I did. But that's water under the bridge and I fully expect that you will harbor ill feelings for a long time and continue to attempt to to draw me into a fight with insults...

You couldn't puimmel a wet sock. All I did was clarify this case wasn't made in China, you take it personally that is your character flaw.

With that said Joe, I stated the truth of it. You are a Ron Thomas dealer if I read your site correctly. You are also a bit of a billiards historian. So to me I would think that you would want to honor those who were making cases before Ron Thomas and honor them along with praising Ron for carrying on the legacy and even improving on the cases in his eyes. And in fact you make that connection on your site while Ron on his does not.

"Cases by Ron Thomas
Ron Thomas has been making the Fellini style cue case for over 20 years. That's longer than the original run of cases by Fellini, Centennial and Its George combined. Ron's an expert craftsman and chooses only top materials. The finest tube style case produced TODAY. Furthermore these cases are made right here in the USA, in Louisiana" (if I could make one correction the cases Ron makes are more in the Centennial style than the Fellini style. The Fellini style is done with the hand-folded ends which Ron reportedly refuses to do. GTF Premier cases are done in the Fellini style, I can show a picture if you need it)

Yes, in the style. BTW I have seen you post MANY cases and do not give credence to the style of case in your postings.

And one last little thing. You said Ron stated he hated the latches. I remember that I met Ron at the Super Billiards Expo in the late 90s I think and all of his cases had latches on the front. Heavy duty latches similar to the ones we use on GTF but rectangular. This would have been well after the period of It's George knockoffs shown in this thread. So can you ask Ron if he began to like latches again when he decided to use them? Because I specifically complimented him on those latches and their sturdiness. After all I had my share of latch problems with Instroke and I am completely sympathetic to Ron's reported hatred of latches.

He said he hated them, he never said he didn't use latches. Even in your picture the case you bring up doesn't have the shoulder strap, so it doesn't have the snap on the STRAP. But again, you knew that design was on shoulder straps, and tried to muddy the waters with something that clearly was of a different design. Could a shoulder strapped Thomas exist with a latch? Possibly....

I will try and find a picture of those latches and update the thread. And next time you talk to Ron please tell him a sincere thank you from me. Without him GTF cases would not exist. I am very proud to say that without Ron's push I wouldn't have gotten into this style of case. Because of him I now am able to make a style of case I have always admired greatly and feel honored to have been able to join the long line of great case makers who work in this style.

I removed this section because I will not stoop to your level and sling innuendos. But anyone who wants to know why GTF cases exist, call Ron Thomas and ask him about the closest he ever came to China.

P.S. It's George cases are also back in business. Maybe someone should ask Mike Roberts what his feelings on Ron Thomas cases were back in the day. I notice you write that Ron has been making cases for 20 years. That means that he started when It's George was in full swing around 1990. I wonder what Mike Roberts thought about his friend starting a case business justy down the road a ways and making essentially the same case? Sounds an awful like how things are done here in China when a brother/partner/friend goes off and opens a competing business making the same product.

Will that be in the memoir as well?

Maybe, but anyone who wants to know Rons history can get on the phone and get a history lesson direct from the source. They do not need you to put your spin on it and try and sell it as something it wasn't. Which is typical for you, I'll give you that. You would think after all the pummeling I gave you, you'd try and write truths once in a while and leave the innuendos on the back burner. I guess you'll never learn, and its not what I expect, its what EVERYONE expects. :smile:

JV

 

[Chopdoc]

I have no idea who made that case.

The one person making the most noise and claiming the greatest expertise had no idea who made this case.

Why is this still going on?

The case has been identified.

Why not take this somewhere else?



.

 

[JB Cases]

Yes, apparently Ron Thomas made some unmarked knockoffs of It's George and yes this is one of them.



You should read what you write, because you said it. Now you want to wordsmith around it, go ahead. But be a man for once in your life and own something that you mean. Stop being a coward and step up to the plate.

Unmarked meaning UNSIGNED by Ron Thomas. That is the whole point of the thread which is to IDENTIFY an unmarked case. The case IS an It's George knockoff, THAT is undeniable.

Makes the difference in this case.

Ok Joe, adding a snap changes the case from an It's George knockoff to something new and brave. You do a lot of making cues in the "classic" style so I will defer to your expertise in how much a design has to differ in order for it to not be a "knockoff".

Well if anyone knows about knockoffs, its definately you.

That would be absolutely correct. Because not only do I study other cases and the history of cases I have also been knocked off more than any other case maker. I also give full credit to any and all influences when I use ANY element from any other case maker.

Again, their past relationship is not anyones business. Nor will I outline what I was told. But your insinuations on what Ron might have picked up is out of line and speculation at best.

I have not insinuated anything. Ron knows Mike Roberts and worked WITH him from time to time. Then Ron went and started making cases that were substantially similar to It's George cases. Some, including me, would say they rise to the level of knockoffs of It's George. I am not sure what you think I am speculating about. My information comes from people who have been around Ron Thomas and Mike Roberts for more than 30 years or so, people who are heavily involved in the billiard business. It's as good as gold and I will bet my life on it.

You couldn't puimmel a wet sock. All I did was clarify this case wasn't made in China, you take it personally that is your character flaw.

You're right Joe, I am overly sensitive and I shouldn't have taken your quip as an attempt to rile me up.

Yes, in the style. BTW I have seen you post MANY cases and do not give credence to the style of case in your postings.

Because I have given credit somewhere else with the first case of that style that I have done. I don't do it with every case that I post on AZB after the first one.

He said he hated them, he never said he didn't use latches. Even in your picture the case you bring up doesn't have the shoulder strap, so it doesn't have the snap on the STRAP. But again, you knew that design was on shoulder straps, and tried to muddy the waters with something that clearly was of a different design. Could a shoulder strapped Thomas exist with a latch? Possibly....

Ok, sorry for being nitpicky, I am sensitive. Anyway the heavy duty latch he did use for a while was excellent for it's durability.

I removed this section because I will not stoop to your level and sling innuendos. But anyone who wants to know why GTF cases exist, call Ron Thomas and ask him about the closest he ever came to China.

I am not sure what you mean but what I mean is this. Ron Thomas called Roy Malott to tell him that as long as Roy was buying my cases he would not sell to him any longer. This was when I first started back making cases about 5 months in and Roy had purchased maybe 5-6 cases from me. GTF cases weren't even in discussion with Roy at that time. Roy called me up as soon as Ron told him that and asked me if I could make that style of case. I said I'd be happy to try and that's what started me on the path of making the Fellini/Centennial case that we named GTF. So were it not for Ron doing that to Roy I woudn't be making this case today and for that I thank him because it's an awesome style and every time we finish a batch I fall in love with it all over again.

Maybe, but anyone who wants to know Rons history can get on the phone and get a history lesson direct from the source. They do not need you to put your spin on it and try and sell it as something it wasn't. Which is typical for you, I'll give you that. You would think after all the pummeling I gave you, you'd try and write truths once in a while and leave the innuendos on the back burner. I guess you'll never learn, and its not what I expect, its what EVERYONE expects. :smile:

JV

Well I tried that and Ron wouldn't tell me so not "anyone" can learn the story from the source, or at least one side of the source. I just don't think Mike Roberts was too thrilled to see Ron Thomas making cases that were substantially like his.

Some folks here are quick to denigrate a cue maker for making a knockoff but when someone like Ron Thomas makes them it's off limits to use the word knockoff in the same sentence as his name. To me that's not the right way to go about it. Embrace it, say that you love the style and you are PROUD to make knockoffs and work in a style you love.

I am not trying to denigrate Ron's work at all. I have never said one bad thing about his cases on here or to anyone else. The guy makes a great case. As good as Centennials and some much better. I didn't think that the It's George knockoffs were as good as It's George but I think that could be ascribed to inexperience at the time he was doing them. But the later ones have always been excellent with no flaws that I could find.

I just want there to be clarity here and also some fairness. If you or any one is going to call people knockoff artists or other wise say they steal designs then you have to be fair and call out your friends for the same thing if they do it.

Ron is more than welcome to set the record straight on the relationship between him and Mike Roberts and educate us all as to how he came to be making cases. He can send you an email and you can copy it to the forum. If anything I said has been in error I will profusely and deeply apologize after I verify Ron's story with my friends in Shreveport.

 

[cueaddicts]

Hey John, is my case getting close ????

 

[JB Cases]

The one person making the most noise and claiming the greatest expertise had no idea who made this case.

Why is this still going on?

The case has been identified.

Why not take this somewhere else?



.

I said I didn't know when I first saw it. Had I checked my image collection I would have chimed in that's it's a Ron Thomas. I am not sure what you mean about what's going on?

What's going on is that we are having a discussion on the history of an unmarked It's George knockoff that Ron Thomas made and trying to decipher whether Ron worked WITH Mike Roberts or not BEFORE going off on his own to make similar cases.

Joe Van Buren is tiptoeing around that question for some reason unknown to me. I don't know why the fact that Ron made It's George knockoffs at one time in his case making career is a big deal but it's simply the fact of the matter as the original poster described it.

There is really nothing in this thread that should be upsetting to anyone as far as I can see it. Joe seems to feel that I am smearing Ron in some way. Not at all, the guy worked with It's George and at some point wanted to make his own cases, not a big deal, it's how a lot of cue makers got started.

I just like my understanding of history to be as accurate as possible.

 

[JB Cases]

Hey John, is my case getting close ????

Yes, it will be done by next Friday. Way too late but better than never.

 

[JB Cases]

All roads lead back to Harvey Martin. I knew I had see the type of closure Ron used on an earlier case.

Here is a similar (not a snap but the exact same leather tab-style) one used by Martin in the 40s/50s maybe.

And also Martin used the draw latch first as well as far I know:

Also found this image of an old Brunswick case with a snap closure. Sorry Joe but although Ron might have been
the first to apply this technique for keeping the lid closed to an It's George/Centennial type case he wasn't the first to
use it on cue cases.

 

[classiccues]

Ok Joe, adding a snap changes the case from an It's George knockoff to something new and brave. You do a lot of making cues in the "classic" style so I will defer to your expertise in how much a design has to differ in order for it to not be a "knockoff"..

No the snap distinguishes it from being an Its George, as an identifier, this thread is about identifying.

That would be absolutely correct. Because not only do I study other cases and the history of cases I have also been knocked off more than any other case maker. I also give full credit to any and all influences when I use ANY element from any other case maker..

So you've knocked off and been knocked off. However just because the Cowboy case was popular and copied, you would have to cite your other "original" designs that have been copied. Because IMHO the Porper case has been the most copied case in my opinion available on the market.

I have not insinuated anything. Ron knows Mike Roberts and worked WITH him from time to time. Then Ron went and started making cases that were substantially similar to It's George cases. Some, including me, would say they rise to the level of knockoffs of It's George. I am not sure what you think I am speculating about. My information comes from people who have been around Ron Thomas and Mike Roberts for more than 30 years or so, people who are heavily involved in the billiard business. It's as good as gold and I will bet my life on it...

Yes and since Ron has given me permission to cite whatever I want from our conversations I could go into the entire story. However it would just be one side that NO one is entitled to hear. My information is from Ron Thomas and lets just say that the simple answer is they were friends, there was a partnership on the table, never saw fruition and that was the end of that. End of story.

Because I have given credit somewhere else with the first case of that style that I have done. I don't do it with every case that I post on AZB after the first one. ...

So has Ron, he doesn't have to post it on his website, and he doesn't have to justify it with you.

Ok, sorry for being nitpicky, I am sensitive. Anyway the heavy duty latch he did use for a while was excellent for it's durability....

No, you're a troublemaker, nitpicking is the least of your problems.

I am not sure what you mean but what I mean is this. Ron Thomas called Roy Malott to tell him that as long as Roy was buying my cases he would not sell to him any longer. This was when I first started back making cases about 5 months in and Roy had purchased maybe 5-6 cases from me. GTF cases weren't even in discussion with Roy at that time. Roy called me up as soon as Ron told him that and asked me if I could make that style of case. I said I'd be happy to try and that's what started me on the path of making the Fellini/Centennial case that we named GTF. So were it not for Ron doing that to Roy I woudn't be making this case today and for that I thank him because it's an awesome style and every time we finish a batch I fall in love with it all over again..

You know damn well this isn't what happened. Ron wasn't going to let Roy put Ron Thomas on the case made in China and then say Ron Thomas made it here. Just like the bullsh*t masking crap you guys did with GTF in the beginning. Headquarters in Chicago, even that was BS, it was always Headquartered in Indianapolis/Xiamen.

Well I tried that and Ron wouldn't tell me so not "anyone" can learn the story from the source, or at least one side of the source. I just don't think Mike Roberts was too thrilled to see Ron Thomas making cases that were substantially like his. ..

No you didn't John. You came across with what you were told by other people, and Ron told you to f**k off. You acted like a jerk and you got treated like one.

Some folks here are quick to denigrate a cue maker for making a knockoff but when someone like Ron Thomas makes them it's off limits to use the word knockoff in the same sentence as his name. To me that's not the right way to go about it. Embrace it, say that you love the style and you are PROUD to make knockoffs and work in a style you love.

Ron Thomas makes a tube style case in the tradition of the tube style case. Its a tribute case.

I just want there to be clarity here and also some fairness. If you or any one is going to call people knockoff artists or other wise say they steal designs then you have to be fair and call out your friends for the same thing if they do it..

Lets see, if you want to build an oval tube case, what is it going to look like?

Ron is more than welcome to set the record straight on the relationship between him and Mike Roberts and educate us all as to how he came to be making cases. He can send you an email and you can copy it to the forum. If anything I said has been in error I will profusely and deeply apologize after I verify Ron's story with my friends in Shreveport.

Since I am trying to talk Ron into coming here on his own, I'll leave it and hope he decides to.

JV (----FTR Ron didn't promise me any cases in making his case.. no pun intended :smile:

 

[JB Cases]

No the snap distinguishes it from being an Its George, as an identifier, this thread is about identifying.

Ok. I don't think anyone here thought that this case was an It's George. However in the world of trade dress the test is whether the average consumer could reasonably think that the product of one company came from another company based on appearance. And using that test back in the day before we were all able to have the internet and newsgroups to use this case certainly looks enough like an It's George to pass that test. Furthermore the original poster even commented that he felt it to be a knockoff.

So you've knocked off and been knocked off. However just because the Cowboy case was popular and copied, you would have to cite your other "original" designs that have been copied. Because IMHO the Porper case has been the most copied case in my opinion available on the market.

For the purpose of the thread we don't need to go into the details of who has been copied more. I have been extensively copied as has Porper, Whitten, and everyone since Ernie first created the Gina case that led to Fellini all the way up to GTF and beyond.

Yes and since Ron has given me permission to cite whatever I want from our conversations I could go into the entire story. However it would just be one side that NO one is entitled to hear. My information is from Ron Thomas and lets just say that the simple answer is they were friends, there was a partnership on the table, never saw fruition and that was the end of that. End of story.

Ok, so a friendship that looked like a possible partnership but ended up with Ron Thomas instead becoming a competitor by making his own version of the It's George case. So I was correct in saying that Ron had worked WITH Mike. I appreciate the confirmation from you since you are the closest person to Ron in the thread and when you say you are talking to him I believe you.

So has Ron, he doesn't have to post it on his website, and he doesn't have to justify it with you.

If you say so. No one HAS to do anything. I merely gave my opinion on giving credit. Just as you said cue makers should give credit in the Diamond Jack/Gina-JD Cue Knockoff thread. It appears that you and I agree on this when it comes to cue makers and not when it comes to case makers.

However I can certainly understand not wanting to acknowledge that the impetus to make cases stemmed from a possible partnership with the company being knocked off. That could be a little awkward as they say.

No, you're a troublemaker, nitpicking is the least of your problems.

Yes trouble is my middle name and that starts with T and rhymes with P and that stands for Pool.

You know damn well this isn't what happened. Ron wasn't going to let Roy put Ron Thomas on the case made in China and then say Ron Thomas made it here. Just like the bullsh*t masking crap you guys did with GTF in the beginning. Headquarters in Chicago, even that was BS, it was always Headquartered in Indianapolis/Xiamen.

My apologies but I know for certain that this is exactly how it happened. Roy called me up and asked if I could make the Fellini type case and I said I thought I could. He said Ron had called him out of the blue and cut him off for buying from me.

I am not clear what you are talking about with "masking"? In the beginning Roy had two other people investing in GTF and the "headquarters" was supposed to be in Chicago and so that's what went on the label. We could go into an argument about labels and markings but the bottom line is that from the first time the cases were introduced on this forum no one hid the origin of where the cases are made. The investors were not named at the time and other than Roy they have never been named. When you received the cases that you did there was a note handwritten from Roy addressed to you. So from that moment on you were fully aware that Roy was involved with the cases. No one tried to hide anything from you. And as you say with Ron and Mike's relationship, no one is obligated to detail it on a forum.

But we all like juicy gossip and the more intrigue the better.

So back to this one, your contention if I understand it correctly is that Ron Thomas told you that Roy Malott wanted to have cases made in China and brand them as Ron Thomas cases and not let anyone know that they were made in China. You say that Roy proposed this to Ron and Ron refused.

Well I can't say for sure that Roy didn't propose to Ron that "Thomas" cases could be made here before or after GTF cases came into being. Although I would have say that if it was before Roy ever asked me to make this style then Roy would have been making a huge leap of faith in making such an offer as he wouldn't have had at that time any way to make these cases. But Roy is a person who thinks in possibilities long before he has the capabilities so I wouldn't put it past him to have offered to Ron to try and have Thomas-branded cases made in China. But I am certain Roy didn't offer to attempt to put them on the market as having been USA-made by Ron.

If Ron says otherwise then I'd say at this point it's you and I speaking about two men who aren't here in the conversation and that this is something that they need to work out between them. I can say that AFTER we began making GTF cases it was clear that we COULD make cases at least as well as Ron Thomas so in that sense it would be fully possible to do private label work for Ron and make cases exactly as he makes them, side snap included.

No you didn't John. You came across with what you were told by other people, and Ron told you to f**k off. You acted like a jerk and you got treated like one.

Yes, I told the story of Ron working for It's George as I heard it and asked for correction/verification. Ron confronted me at the SBE and denied working FOR It's George and refused to answer me when I asked him if he had worked WITH it's George. You can say I acted like a jerk but the reality of it is that Ron did in fact work with It's George as you have now confirmed and he did in fact make knockoffs of the It's George cases when he started out. I only mentioned this because you and others have tirelessly labeled me a knockoff artist while constantly failing to mention that your own supplier and friend Ron Thomas has built his entire career on knocking off It's George and Centennial cases.

Ron Thomas makes a tube style case in the tradition of the tube style case. Its a tribute case.

A tribute to whom?

Lets see, if you want to build an oval tube case, what is it going to look like?

If I WANT it to look like It's George then that's what it will look like.

Since I am trying to talk Ron into coming here on his own, I'll leave it and hope he decides to.

Excellent. It would be nice to have him here to speak for himself and if he were here and active I can guarantee that he will get more business from the many folks who wold love to have a Ron Thomas case directly from him.

JV (----FTR Ron didn't promise me any cases in making his case.. no pun intended :smile:

Great. It's nice to know that you don't sell your support in return for merchandise. Your integrity is legendary.

Have a nice night.

 

[classiccues]

A - not "for" - with. Ask him if he ever worked with Mike Roberts at any time in any capacity? Does he even know Mike personally? Ever spent any time at a show with Mike or been in Mike's shop?

Look what didn't get blown away in the wind....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=86673&highlight=china+case&page=4
John Barton says.....One last thing, for those who say Ron Thomas is a saint. The way I hear it is that Mike Roberts from George says that Thomas worked for him for two weeks and Mike went on vacation and Ron copied all the supplier information and quit and then opened shop as Thomas Cue Cases two weeks after that. I don't know if this story is true or not but it damn sure doesn't put Thomas in the best light if true. I welcome correction from anyone who knows more about this.

You have no problem stating rumors when you need to push your product over other peoples. So no need to go to innuendos John, can you be a man now? Worked FOR him its YOUR words... But the fact is Ron was never in that shop without Mike, according to him, for any length of time. Ron's introduction to the facility to where the tubes were made were by a cuemaker. His leather suppliers were found by him. Ron and Mike were supposed to form a partnership because Mike had more orders than time. But since he couldn't show Ron on paper, what was going on, Ron backed out. Thats the story first hand, directly from one of the parties involved.

John says...Just be proud of it. Copied and "improved". That's how I do it when I copy someone, I try to improve on what they did and give them credit for the ideas I took.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=97247&highlight=china+case&page=2 John says about GTF cases..The other point I want to make is that these cases are not knockoffs. They are newly designed pieces that improve, in my opinion, on those that have gone before. I have studied the Fellini, Centennial, George, and Thomas cases to determine how I could bring something new to the table in this genre of cases. There are very specific things that have been done to insure that these cases are the most protective of this style. There are other things that have been done to insure that the functions of all the brands I have mentioned have been met or exceeded.

So are you the only one that can say they made an improvement and not want their new product to be called a knockoff? Do you think you should have special latitude that Thomas can't have? I mean he says he feels he improved the its George case when he did his. So his can't be unassociated wth the term knockoff? Nice try dingleberry..

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Look what didn't get blown away in the wind....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=86673&highlight=china+case&page=4
John Barton says.....One last thing, for those who say Ron Thomas is a saint. The way I hear it is that Mike Roberts from George says that Thomas worked for him for two weeks and Mike went on vacation and Ron copied all the supplier information and quit and then opened shop as Thomas Cue Cases two weeks after that. I don't know if this story is true or not but it damn sure doesn't put Thomas in the best light if true. I welcome correction from anyone who knows more about this.

You have no problem stating rumors when you need to push your product over other peoples. So no need to go to innuendos John, can you be a man now? Worked FOR him its YOUR words... But the fact is Ron was never in that shop without Mike, according to him, for any length of time. Ron's introduction to the facility to where the tubes were made were by a cuemaker. His leather suppliers were found by him. Ron and Mike were supposed to form a partnership because Mike had more orders than time. But since he couldn't show Ron on paper, what was going on, Ron backed out. Thats the story first hand, directly from one of the parties involved.

If you would provide the link to the thread you are quoting from you will allow the readers to see the context that this statement was made in. If I remember correctly the context was that Roy was being attacked as if he dropped Ron in favor of GTF cases when in fact it was the exact opposite. Ron was being portrayed as this poor little case maker being oppressed by the evil dealer who dumped him for some cheaper cases made in China. But in fact Roy has supported Ron for many years with larger orders than all of Ron's other dealers combined and Ron unceremoniously dumped him completely out of the blue for dealing with me. So I told the story as is was told to me and as you quoted above welcomed correction. None was forthcoming back then by you or anyone else.

And I am quite happy to hear Ron's side of it even if it's funneled through you many years later. Ron could have told me himself at the SBE when I asked but he chose not to.

John says...Just be proud of it. Copied and "improved". That's how I do it when I copy someone, I try to improve on what they did and give them credit for the ideas I took.

That is correct, if I use anyone else's ideas then I try to do something that improves on them in my opinion. If I can't then I say that I couldn't improve on it and am stealing a great idea because it is the best way to do it that I know of.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=97247&highlight=china+case&page=2 John says about GTF cases..The other point I want to make is that these cases are not knockoffs. They are newly designed pieces that improve, in my opinion, on those that have gone before. I have studied the Fellini, Centennial, George, and Thomas cases to determine how I could bring something new to the table in this genre of cases. There are very specific things that have been done to insure that these cases are the most protective of this style. There are other things that have been done to insure that the functions of all the brands I have mentioned have been met or exceeded.

So are you the only one that can say they made an improvement and not want their new product to be called a knockoff? Do you think you should have special latitude that Thomas can't have? I mean he says he feels he improved the its George case when he did his. So his can't be unassociated wth the term knockoff? Nice try dingleberry..

JV

The word knockoff is used derisively to mean inferior clone more often than it is used positively to mean improved version. In this conversation which you can also link to for the reader's benefit I was trying to dinstinguish between the negative use of the word and the positive use of the word. I was also being defensive as one can get when being attacked or maligned.

The thing is that I clearly in this statement give credit to those who came before me for their influences and state clearly that I felt I had made some design improvements over those predecessor's work. That is a far different discussion than if I had ignored them completely and claimed to be the best ever.

I claim no special privileges Joe. On my website and in my writings I am very proud to acknowledge those who came before me. I thank them for creating the styles and models that I can build on. As with Instroke I then also create designs and innovations that others can build on and the cycle continues. The difference is that I honor my ancestors and some others choose not to. Morally I think that my way is the better way to go, maybe not but it's simply something I feel is right to do so I do it.

 

[classiccues]

Ok. I don't think anyone here thought that this case was an It's George. However in the world of trade dress the test is whether the average consumer could reasonably think that the product of one company came from another company based on appearance. And using that test back in the day before we were all able to have the internet and newsgroups to use this case certainly looks enough like an It's George to pass that test. Furthermore the original poster even commented that he felt it to be a knockoff.

Are they similar, sure they are. But there is a makers mark per se in the snap. Would it take someone who really knew the cases to distinguish that, absolutely.

Ok, so a friendship that looked like a possible partnership but ended up with Ron Thomas instead becoming a competitor by making his own version of the It's George case. So I was correct in saying that Ron had worked WITH Mike. I appreciate the confirmation from you since you are the closest person to Ron in the thread and when you say you are talking to him I believe you

We found your version in another thread, we'll use that since you can't bring yourself to say it now. Yes, I talk to Ron.

My apologies but I know for certain that this is exactly how it happened. Roy called me up and asked if I could make the Fellini type case and I said I thought I could. He said Ron had called him out of the blue and cut him off for buying from me.

OK here we have two guys that remember it very differently. I will concede to leave it at that.

I am not clear what you are talking about with "masking"? In the beginning Roy had two other people investing in GTF and the "headquarters" was supposed to be in Chicago and so that's what went on the label. We could go into an argument about labels and markings but the bottom line is that from the first time the cases were introduced on this forum no one hid the origin of where the cases are made. The investors were not named at the time and other than Roy they have never been named. When you received the cases that you did there was a note handwritten from Roy addressed to you. So from that moment on you were fully aware that Roy was involved with the cases. No one tried to hide anything from you. And as you say with Ron and Mike's relationship, no one is obligated to detail it on a forum.

See John, again you have misremembering problems. You said to me in one of your e-mails, that there was Roy and the other guy, who will remain nameless for now, being GTF. When I received case one, the brown case I did the test on, it came via the other guy. Him and I have some e-mail history as he liked to buy and sell cues. That case had NO markers that Roy was involved. The other two that were gifts from you for doing the review came from Roy but went to PTM and I did not get them until much later. In fact we know I didn't get the Blue one till very recently.

So back to this one, your contention if I understand it correctly is that Ron Thomas told you that Roy Malott wanted to have cases made in China and brand them as Ron Thomas cases and not let anyone know that they were made in China. You say that Roy proposed this to Ron and Ron refused.

Well I can't say for sure that Roy didn't propose to Ron that "Thomas" cases could be made here before or after GTF cases came into being. Although I would have say that if it was before Roy ever asked me to make this style then Roy would have been making a huge leap of faith in making such an offer as he wouldn't have had at that time any way to make these cases. But Roy is a person who thinks in possibilities long before he has the capabilities so I wouldn't put it past him to have offered to Ron to try and have Thomas-branded cases made in China. But I am certain Roy didn't offer to attempt to put them on the market as having been USA-made by Ron.

If Ron says otherwise then I'd say at this point it's you and I speaking about two men who aren't here in the conversation and that this is something that they need to work out between them. I can say that AFTER we began making GTF cases it was clear that we COULD make cases at least as well as Ron Thomas so in that sense it would be fully possible to do private label work for Ron and make cases exactly as he makes them, side snap included..

Again, my version right from Ron. GTF born after Ron's refusal to do a chinese made case.

Yes, I told the story of Ron working for It's George as I heard it and asked for correction/verification. Ron confronted me at the SBE and denied working FOR It's George and refused to answer me when I asked him if he had worked WITH it's George. You can say I acted like a jerk but the reality of it is that Ron did in fact work with It's George as you have now confirmed and he did in fact make knockoffs of the It's George cases when he started out. I only mentioned this because you and others have tirelessly labeled me a knockoff artist while constantly failing to mention that your own supplier and friend Ron Thomas has built his entire career on knocking off It's George and Centennial cases...

I never confirmed he worked "with" him either. WTF are you taking? He admitted to almost getting in with Mike with ZERO experience. Just out of friendship and the fact he had extra money. You are a knock off artist because MOST of your cases are knock offs of someone elses aesthetics (look-style). Is there a case you HAVEN'T knocked off? Knocking off one case is one thing, knocking off an industry is another.

Excellent. It would be nice to have him here to speak for himself and if he were here and active I can guarantee that he will get more business from the many folks who wold love to have a Ron Thomas case directly from him....

First, Ron is passing the home stretch. He says his hands cannot do the number of cases he has been doing. My suggestion to anyone that wants to get them, is find them and buy them. From Billiardcue.com, Fourkingscues, us, whomever has them. You will not regret the purchase.

Great. It's nice to know that you don't sell your support in return for merchandise. Your integrity is legendary.

Have a nice night.

Well you already knew that...

JV

 

[classiccues]

If you would provide the link to the thread you are quoting from you will allow the readers to see the context that this statement was made in. If I remember correctly the context was that Roy was being attacked as if he dropped Ron in favor of GTF cases when in fact it was the exact opposite. Ron was being portrayed as this poor little case maker being oppressed by the evil dealer who dumped him for some cheaper cases made in China. But in fact Roy has supported Ron for many years with larger orders than all of Ron's other dealers combined and Ron unceremoniously dumped him completely out of the blue for dealing with me. So I told the story as is was told to me and as you quoted above welcomed correction. None was forthcoming back then by you or anyone else.

And I am quite happy to hear Ron's side of it even if it's funneled through you many years later. Ron could have told me himself at the SBE when I asked but he chose not to..

This all I am going to comment on.. I did post a link as to be fair. In that thread, as I read it you and Tommy got into a pissing match about the way Roy treated Engles and Thomas. There was absolutely ZERO reason for you to bring up "your" version of Thomas and Roberts. None. Same thing applies with this thread. You needed to muddy the waters. You take every opportunity to prove what everyone knows.

BTW According to Ron, you posted that BS first, then he came to you at the SBE. You would think that this should have been the other way around.

Sticking up for your friend/dealer is honorable, I get it. I do it myself. However bringing someone down in order to prop them up, not so much.


JV

 

[JB Cases]

Are they similar, sure they are. But there is a makers mark per se in the snap. Would it take someone who really knew the cases to distinguish that, absolutely.

Ok settled then.

We found your version in another thread, we'll use that since you can't bring yourself to say it now. Yes, I talk to Ron.

Bring myself to say what? My version then was what I was told at the time and I repeat I asked for correction. You could have called Ron back then and provided his side of it. So far we don't actually have Mike Robert's version of events and that might be quite different.

OK here we have two guys that remember it very differently. I will concede to leave it at that.

Fair enough.

See John, again you have misremembering problems. You said to me in one of your e-mails, that there was Roy and the other guy, who will remain nameless for now, being GTF. When I received case one, the brown case I did the test on, it came via the other guy. Him and I have some e-mail history as he liked to buy and sell cues. That case had NO markers that Roy was involved. The other two that were gifts from you for doing the review came from Roy but went to PTM and I did not get them until much later. In fact we know I didn't get the Blue one till very recently.

Well in that case I had nothing to do with your review. I do remember being asked whether you should be sent a case for review and I said that I thought they should because you would tend to be the harshest critic due to the history between yourself and myself and if we survived your critique then it would be good. And we did because you published what I felt was an unbiased critique untainted by your well-known anti-China stance. Years later you claim that you were offered many cases for a positive review which I know for a fact no such offer was made by myself or Roy. If Bob made that offer then it was on his own and without permission from Roy.

But the fact that you claim it does beg the question then if your positive review was your true observations on the case or was it positively slanted because you had expectation of compensation for a positive review?

Per the private exchanges between you and me on this subject I came away with the idea that if you are telling the truth that you were offered ten cases in return for a positive review that then you DID sell your review. So here is your chance to clear it up.

Did you sell your review in return for the promise of ten cases? Or was your review done purely because you were asked to provide one for your expertise on cases. I know that my advice to Bob and Roy was to ask you to review the case on it's merits rather than it's origins and I felt that you did that. At the time I felt you gave a pretty fair review and even went beyond by posting a picture of the case with your Bushka inside and turned upside down.

Again, my version right from Ron. GTF born after Ron's refusal to do a chinese made case.

Well that version doesn't jibe with how it actually went down. Roy had no possible way to make a chinese version of this case without me and the very first time I was asked to make this case was the day Roy called me highly pissed that Ron had called him out of the blue to say he was refusing to sell Roy any more cases as long as Roy bought ANY cases from me. If not for that then there would be no GTF cases.

I never confirmed he worked "with" him either. WTF are you taking? He admitted to almost getting in with Mike with ZERO experience. Just out of friendship and the fact he had extra money. You are a knock off artist because MOST of your cases are knock offs of someone elses aesthetics. Is there a case you HAVEN'T knocked off? Knocking off one case is one thing, knocking off an industry is another.

Well then our sources differ. But for the moment let's take Ron at his word through you. If I understand you correctly at this point, Ron and Mike talk and Ron is asked to invest in It's George. That falls through because Ron is not happy with the information he is getting on the state of the company. Ron then goes off to make cases and chooses to make cases which are substantially similar to It's George cases but with no markings on some of them. Is that about right?

First, Ron is passing the home stretch. He says his hands cannot do the number of cases he has been doing. My suggestion to anyone that wants to get them, is find them and buy them. From Billiardcue.com, Fourkingscues, us, whomever has them. You will not regret the purchase.

I agree with this. Ron's cases are excellent and people should snap them up as best they can. Ron should find an apprentice who is willing to buy the business and carry on the tradition of these fine cases.

Well you already knew that...

JV

Yes, Joe, your integrity is never in question. You are one of the most consistent people I know in this business.

 

[JB Cases]

This all I am going to comment on.. I did post a link as to be fair. In that thread, as I read it you and Tommy got into a pissing match about the way Roy treated Engles and Thomas. There was absolutely ZERO reason for you to bring up "your" version of Thomas and Roberts. None. Same thing applies with this thread. You needed to muddy the waters. You take every opportunity to prove what everyone knows.

BTW According to Ron, you posted that BS first, then he came to you at the SBE. You would think that this should have been the other way around.

Sticking up for your friend/dealer is honorable, I get it. I do it myself. However bringing someone down in order to prop them up, not so much.


JV

I will go read it and if it's as you say then I will certainly apologize for interjecting the story where it didn't belong.

Ron is correct that I posted the story I heard first and then he came to me at the SBE. I didn't say otherwise. However at the SBE I asked him to clarify and he refused. Ron Thomas has some grudge against me that goes way back beyond the creation of GTF and what has followed there and I have zero idea what it is about.

I had done nothing but heap praise on his cases and done nothing to deserve him calling up my dealer and telling him to stop selling my cases or else.

As for bringing down that's hardly true. However it happened Ron had some relationship with Mike Roberts and instead of becoming a partner he became a competitor instead making cases substantially like the It's George models at the time.

Edit: I just went back and read the first thread. I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for. I told the story as accurately as I knew it and it was in response to Roy being attacked unfairly. I welcomed correction and none was offered even by those who were in contact with Ron. I feel that I reported the news accurately.

 

[JB Cases]

I never confirmed he worked "with" him either. WTF are you taking? He admitted to almost getting in with Mike with ZERO experience. Just out of friendship and the fact he had extra money. You are a knock off artist because MOST of your cases are knock offs of someone elses aesthetics (look-style). Is there a case you HAVEN'T knocked off? Knocking off one case is one thing, knocking off an industry is another.
JV

Well, my concept of making cases is to be able to to do any style I wish to attempt and so far nothing I have wanted to make has been out of reach. I am not sure why setting up a studio workshop with the ability to do all types of cases, and not just cue cases, is considered a bad thing by you.

To point out the obvious you also make your living in part by "knocking off" the style and design of what are considered classic cue designs. Bit like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think? And no, Joe I am not saying that you make copies. You take the elements you like and recombine them into new arrangements. Pretty much what we do except that we strive to also build better cases as well.

I know that you make statements about our work that you wish to be true Joe but in fact here are a bunch of threads showing off our creativity in both decoration and construction which are in direct contrast to your slurs.

I understand that you say that there are no well respected case makers in China. Since I am in China I guess that includes me. I think my customers have a different opinion Joe. Be that as it may since you chose to make that statement (innocently, as you claim) I offer up a list of the things we have done to stand in contrast to your assertions. I believe that our body of work in the past five years says plenty about what we do and how we do it.

Our portfolios:

www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html
www.gtfcases.com
www.sterlingcuecases.com



General Case Information:

State of the Art in Case Making

Removable Interior Concept
- Another Removable Interior Concept -

John's Case Collection

The History of Cue Cases

Sterling Cases Website

John Barton's Criteria For Evaluating A Case

Free Case Pattern for Aspiring Case Makers

Jay Flowers' First Case

Full Circle - Birth of the J.Flowers Tribute Line

Cue Protection - What is enough?

Case Art - Jiasen Masterpiece Collection

The Goat Case by Jiasen


Counterfeit J.Flowers Tribute Cases - Information

JB Cases Video Interview


DJAY Designed JB Cases.

Case Maker List

______________________________________________________________________________

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TommyT's Case


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2011 Yearbook
Darcy
Cases Made For Chinese Customers
History - Brunswick/AE Schmidt "Hustler" Case
Texas
Karen Barton Designs
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All Paul2
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Long Tom - First JB Case with removeable interior
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GTF Cases:

Tooled GTF Cases
GTF Tooled 2012

 

[JB Cases]

Speaking of Shreveport and the people in the biz there:

This is a case we did for a Bill Schick cue that Roy owns.

Bill made five ivory pieces engraved to match the ivory four oval windows in
the cue and the last one with his engraved signature.
We made windows for the ivory pieces to be slipped
inside for display and removed for shipping if needed.