Lifting points on titlist, easy repair?

trouble ahead?

KJ- I'm glad you weighed in on this. I appreciate the advice of someone who's point of view comes from actual experience rather than speculation.

I'll certainly keep what you have said in mind, but I was pretty careful when I inspected the Titlist I just converted with similar damage to this one and I believe it will hold up a very long time. Time, of course, will tell.

I'm very mindful of the fact that my reputation hangs in the balance, and the decision I made was anything but hasty.

I spoke to the cue's owner about exactly the concerns you have expressed about the integrity of the splice, and explained that it might not hold up if there was hidden damage, and that I don't have much experience with Titlist cues. The owner is not particularly risk adverse and we decided to proceed. The cue turned out very well and makes no strange sounds so far.

If the cue was falling apart, or if it had signs of water damage or abuse, or if it had a bend through the splice, it would be another story perhaps, but as it stands, at least on the one I converted, I reckon I would do the same thing again. On the one I did recently, the damage seemed to be localized: the rest of the splice seemed fine; the cue showed many decades of use, but not necessarily abuse.

I completely get it that pool cues reside in an odd little niche in the world and are used in a demanding way, but they are made with materials common to many other things. Old furniture, for example. Same materials, same adhesives. And furniture often sees service even harder than pool cues. Loose joints and the like are often successfully repaired without disassembling the whole piece for a total rebuild. Throw in modern adhesives and the success rate is even better.

You've got me on guard here since your experience with cues is so much more extensive than mine...none the less, I think a case-by-case approach is not unreasonable.

If it is large enough in diameter to yield a reasonable joint size plus a little wiggle room to even up the points, I would not mind buying the Titlist the OP has his eye on if it was an attractive price.

Once again KJ, thank you so much for the knowledgeable input.

PS- Paul, you were answering while I was typing! Yours was the other opinion I was going to solicit. Thanks!
PPS- Reclusive and eccentric...right on the money! The genius part...not so much. (this refers to me of course, not Paul!)
Robin Snyder
 
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Paul Dayton said:
Well built and well maintained furniture from 200+ years ago doesn't come apart on its own and the glues don't fail.
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My family used to restore furniture and as I remember it, this isn't true. I grew up in a house furnished with pieces from famous estates such as Carnegie and Mellon...as well as many pieces from other sources.

Many of these pieces were of the highest quality and lived pampered lives in wealthy estates. These were not garage sale pieces. But my parents, and later me under their supervision, had to engage in restoration. The joinery separated, glues failed, woods moved. Essentially yes, it just comes apart on its own...with time and age.

So I am still not convinced that what one calls a "solid" cue blank is necessarily in much better shape than the one this post is about.

No disrespect to Mr Dayton, of course. I am merely an amateur trying to understand.



.
 
Old wood

All things considered I suppose a Prather, Davis, or other top-notch blank would suit most people better. But for a hopeless romantic like me, all that history in my hand gives me a chill! All the action that cue has had to fade! All of those long gone players! Sorry, it just knocks me out. I can't resist it.

I get the same thrill from vintage race cars. Rump!Rump!Rump!Rump! The sounds of history.
I once heard Fangio's Maserati run, full bore, with Stirling Moss at the wheel. Unforgettable!!

The guy I did the Titlist conversion for is a first rate player. I'm absolutely dying to see the cue in heavy action.

Robin Snyder
 
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My comments were regarding this cue in particular. Some of the "Food for thought" is the fact that
the glues of that era are aging. They weren't all that great when they were fresh. Now they're 75 yrs older.
This was the primary reason for the full-splice in the first place because they didn't have the greatest of
confidence in the glues that they had available. They knew that the greater the glue surface area,
the greater the chance of their glues holding up. The full-splice is a very effective way of doing this.
But 75 yrs??? Who knew?? Or who could have imagined?

Epoxy has provided the greatest advancement in pool cue construction since the leather tip.
Well actually, all of our glues and adhesives have improved dramatically.
Super-glue by itself has caused a revolution.

I'm not denigrating any cues of this type that are 'out there' and still in existence.
Nor any of the repairs that have been performed to keep some of these agents of history in the game.
That's basically what cue repair is about.
But I don't think it unreasonable to suppose that age, as it does with all things, is taking it's toll here.
Each cue's life will be different. This cue of topic has it's own story.
I think age and continued or sudden drying play a part in it.
Can this cue be repaired???........probably and who knows, it may last another 75 yrs.

All IMHO, KJ
 
Lifting points

These were mass produced. Not much quality control. May have been
a bad Monday morning for the glue man or the clamp man. maybe this was a bad batch of wood. Sure you can cobble it back together, and then you will have a cobbled together cue of unknown quality. Sure any competent cuemaker could fix the point, hell any hobby wood worker could do that. Ever wonder why the point not only broke loose, but pulled away from the point channel. Old guy told me never force wood to do something it doesn't want to do. So the repair becomes bending the wood back to a position it doesn't want to be in. I would never ever put my name on a conversion like this.
 
cutter said:
Old guy told me never force wood to do something it doesn't want to do. So the repair becomes bending the wood back to a position it doesn't want to be in. I would never ever put my name on a conversion like this.
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That makes sense to me.

One has to wonder though, how many cues would pull apart in such a way if the glue failed? In other words, as the wood ages, stress changes. I imagine that many that have not come apart have similar stress, it's just unseen because the glue is holding.


.
 
Cobbled? Or skillfully repaired?

Steve- Thank you for your opinion.

It seems you are saying that Titlists in general, for the reasons you site, are simply not suitable for conversion once they are flawed....nasty old production cues to begin with, nasty old glue and all that.

As Chopdoc asked, if a cue of this age "looks OK", is the glue necessarily better? Is the visually sound one really that much better? Same age, same glue. Of course everyone would much rather have an immaculate blank to work with but as I said previously, it's art, it's problem solving.

Ryan, for one, has showed photos of cues he has repaired that were very badly damaged, far worse than this lifted point...we're talking completely destroyed. Myself, I'm not sure I would even know where to begin with such a mess. After his amazing repairs, there were no signs of the damage. And they certainly were not "cobbled together".

So what, to you, constitutes "cobbled together"? To me, it would be a repair that didn't look good or one which was mechanically unsound, or one that diminished the performance of the cue somehow.

On the Titlist I recently completed, and on many of the imperfect Titlists I've seen with a raised point or two, even slight pressure would put the point back where it belonged. Wood certainly does have a mind of it's own, but I see no problem whatsoever here. I don't think using a few grams of pressure will affect anything. Again, I take a case by case approach to things like this: some I will deem fixable, some not.

The same thing holds true in other fields. Welded-up engine blocks on race engines are not particularly uncommon. Shit happens. Don Garlits had an engine he called "Old Scarface" because the block had been welded so many times. But it was still straight and sound, and it helped him win yet another championship. I suspect he actually liked the way it looked. He knew from experience what would work and what would not and proceeded with confidence.

Just as an aside, I wish I had a dollar for every engine, or car, for that matter, I've brought back to life in the last 50 years which had been given up for dead. They were not cobbled together, they were lovingly, skillfully repaired.

I'm not attacking your point of view, just trying to understand it.

Robin Snyder
 
Paul Dayton said:
Well built and well maintained furniture from 200+ years ago doesn't come apart on its own and the glues don't fail. It takes a lack of care on some scale, be it too humid, too dry, too hot, physical abuse or something else, to produce the sort of glue failure seen on the OP's cue. If a genuinely solid cue is is converted properly, there is no reason why it should fail just because of the passage of time.

The original cue in this thread is something I wouldn't admit touching. If forced by circumstances to help a dear friend, I would tell him that I know a reclusive, eccentric genius, who might be able to help but no one can ever know who he/she is or where they come from. Perhaps this mystery person might wrap the point section of the cue with some strangely colored lined, i.e purple with white speck leaving a little space between turns of the wrap then soak the entire front of the cue in very thin super glue. Later on the front would have to be turned clean and maybe used for pool or roasting marshmallows, depending on the results.
Click to expand...

From the mouth of a great Cue Maker and someone who brought things back from the dead while keeping the furniture in line with the period of time built. You could say he is wrong but than you would be wrong.
 
carguy said:
Steve- Thank you for your opinion.

It seems you are saying that Titlists in general, for the reasons you site, are simply not suitable for conversion once they are flawed....nasty old production cues to begin with, nasty old glue and all that.

As Chopdoc asked, if a cue of this age "looks OK", is the glue necessarily better? Is the visually sound one really that much better? Same age, same glue. Of course everyone would much rather have an immaculate blank to work with but as I said previously, it's art, it's problem solving.

Ryan, for one, has showed photos of cues he has repaired that were very badly damaged, far worse than this lifted point...we're talking completely destroyed. Myself, I'm not sure I would even know where to begin with such a mess. After his amazing repairs, there were no signs of the damage. And they certainly were not "cobbled together".

So what, to you, constitutes "cobbled together"? To me, it would be a repair that didn't look good or one which was mechanically unsound, or one that diminished the performance of the cue somehow.

On the Titlist I recently completed, and on many of the imperfect Titlists I've seen with a raised point or two, even slight pressure would put the point back where it belonged. Wood certainly does have a mind of it's own, but I see no problem whatsoever here. I don't think using a few grams of pressure will affect anything. Again, I take a case by case approach to things like this: some I will deem fixable, some not.

The same thing holds true in other fields. Welded-up engine blocks on race engines are not particularly uncommon. Shit happens. Don Garlits had an engine he called "Old Scarface" because the block had been welded so many times. But it was still straight and sound, and it helped him win yet another championship. I suspect he actually liked the way it looked. He knew from experience what would work and what would not and proceeded with confidence.

Just as an aside, I wish I had a dollar for every engine, or car, for that matter, I've brought back to life in the last 50 years which had been given up for dead. They were not cobbled together, they were lovingly, skillfully repaired.

I'm not attacking your point of view, just trying to understand it.

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

I like your attitude.

It reminds me of my bikes. All old. All "cobbled together" by many people's standards. But my old Triumph won first in show against almost 300 Harleys and turned in 11 second times on the strip. The parts on that bike span from 1962 to 1978 Trimph as well as various years of Harley and Asian makes as well as custom parts of course. I know guys who picked on the bike that built "customs" by ordering parts out of catalogs. To each his own I guess.

Some may wish to just walk away from certain cues while others will take them on. There is valuable perspective from both camps I think. In the end one must simply decide for one's self.

There is a lot of experience among those commenting in this thread and I find such things invaluable to those of us observing and learning about cues.

Thanks guys! :thumbup:


.
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carguy said:
Steve- Thank you for your opinion.

It seems you are saying that Titlists in general, for the reasons you site, are simply not suitable for conversion once they are flawed....nasty old production cues to begin with, nasty old glue and all that.

As Chopdoc asked, if a cue of this age "looks OK", is the glue necessarily better? Is the visually sound one really that much better? Same age, same glue. Of course everyone would much rather have an immaculate blank to work with but as I said previously, it's art, it's problem solving.

Ryan, for one, has showed photos of cues he has repaired that were very badly damaged, far worse than this lifted point...we're talking completely destroyed. Myself, I'm not sure I would even know where to begin with such a mess. After his amazing repairs, there were no signs of the damage. And they certainly were not "cobbled together".

So what, to you, constitutes "cobbled together"? To me, it would be a repair that didn't look good or one which was mechanically unsound, or one that diminished the performance of the cue somehow.

On the Titlist I recently completed, and on many of the imperfect Titlists I've seen with a raised point or two, even slight pressure would put the point back where it belonged. Wood certainly does have a mind of it's own, but I see no problem whatsoever here. I don't think using a few grams of pressure will affect anything. Again, I take a case by case approach to things like this: some I will deem fixable, some not.

The same thing holds true in other fields. Welded-up engine blocks on race engines are not particularly uncommon. Shit happens. Don Garlits had an engine he called "Old Scarface" because the block had been welded so many times. But it was still straight and sound, and it helped him win yet another championship. I suspect he actually liked the way it looked. He knew from experience what would work and what would not and proceeded with confidence.

Just as an aside, I wish I had a dollar for every engine, or car, for that matter, I've brought back to life in the last 50 years which had been given up for dead. They were not cobbled together, they were lovingly, skillfully repaired.

I'm not attacking your point of view, just trying to understand it.

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

Well I see your point on old machinery and engines, but you can't weld wood. Bet you don't straighten bent push rods or bent connecting rods.
You buy new ones and put them in as replacements. If you had a warped and cracked head, is it worth the time and money to do the necessary work. You could dismantle the titleist and make a new rear end for it, but is it worth it. They aren't that rare. Now if it was a real George or Gus, well then you might want to tear it apart and replace some parts. I redid an old Titleist conversion for someone whose Grandfather had owned the cues for 30 years. Except for sentimental reasons it wasn't worth the time, plus it was probably never going to really get played. Ryan does some amazing work, but ask him, and most of the time, the cost is way more than the cue is worth. Plus he rebuilds them with new parts. Not a lot of parts to a full splice and replacing any of them is not practical. Cobble may be a bit harsh, but I've seen a lot of repairs that where not done in a craftman like manner. Squirting in some glue and binding it up doesn't address the root problems.
 
TomHay said:
From the mouth of a great Cue Maker and someone who brought things back from the dead while keeping the furniture in line with the period of time built. You could say he is wrong but than you would be wrong.
Click to expand...

I won't be calling Paul "wrong" about anything real soon.

Of the 7 or 8 cues I own by other cuemakers; one is a Dayton, and I like it a LOT!

Like so many other things, there are very many ways to skin a cat which all work just fine.

As with almost everything, if you ask 10 experts, you'll get 12 or 13 answers.

When I want to know what's on the other side of the mountain, I go there and look around so I can draw my own conclusions.

Robin Snyder
 
Robin,

If I got the right deal I would buy it just to see what I could do. If its personal it is what it is.

To deal with a customer that might have another result implanted in their head, I give myself enough headaches in a day without self infliction of more.

I think the true answer is where is the cue going and what could be considered as promises that person might think.
 
them good ol' days.....

Steve-
cutter said:
Well I see your point on old machinery and engines, but you can't weld wood.
******No, but epoxy is the next best thing.

Bet you don't straighten bent push rods or bent connecting rods.
******Actually, I have straightened at least my share of pushrods out of necessity. They outlived the car. Rods, well I've straightened a few twisted ones (secret technique), but no, none that were properly bent.

You buy new ones and put them in as replacements.
******I get new ones when I can. But I've worked on cars most people have never even heard of. I'll make a list some time just for laughs. I mean, how many people have worked in a DAF dealership? How 'bout Wortburg? NSU? TVR? etc, etc, etc.(just the meager tip of the iceberg). I learned to do with what I could get, and still get top notch results. It's a judgement thing.

If you had a warped and cracked head, is it worth the time and money to do the necessary work.
******Warped and cracked head? No real worries there, up to a point. Weld it up, machine it down

You could dismantle the titleist and make a new rear end for it, but is it worth it. They aren't that rare. Now if it was a real George or Gus, well then you might want to tear it apart and replace some parts. I redid an old Titleist conversion for someone whose Grandfather had owned the cues for 30 years. Except for sentimental reasons it wasn't worth the time, plus it was probably never going to really get played. Ryan does some amazing work, but ask him, and most of the time, the cost is way more than the cue is worth. Plus he rebuilds them with new parts. Not a lot of parts to a full splice and replacing any of them is not practical.
******A guy asked me recently if I could put different veneers in his green-veneered Predator sneaky. (He had seen one with red veneers, so he figured...)
Cobble may be a bit harsh, but I've seen a lot of repairs that where not done in a craftman like manner.
******Boy, ya got that one right. I've seen some real beauties. My favorites are the ones involving Plastic Steel. On the OUTSIDE!!
Squirting in some glue and binding it up doesn't address the root problems.
******See, now ya got me thinking. Perhaps a vacuum bag to force the glue in deeper....However, so far, so good. If that repaired splice I just did blows up while my guy is shooting the winning 9 ball, I'll let you know. :)
Click to expand...

Robin Snyder
 
It all depends....

TomHay said:
Robin,

If I got the right deal I would buy it just to see what I could do. If its personal it is what it is.

To deal with a customer that might have another result implanted in their head, I give myself enough headaches in a day without self infliction of more.

I think the true answer is where is the cue going and what could be considered as promises that person might think.
Click to expand...

Tom- Bullseye. It depends on the customer. My guy is a gamer and we pressed on. I think all will be cool. I'd do it again in a heartbeat!
By the way, this one stayed one-piece. It's now 58 3/4"(up from 56), nice and skinny, forward balanced, ferrule-less, and plays great. You should try one!

Robin Snyder
 
Chopdoc said:
My family used to restore furniture and as I remember it, this isn't true. I grew up in a house furnished with pieces from famous estates such as Carnegie and Mellon...as well as many pieces from other sources.

Many of these pieces were of the highest quality and lived pampered lives in wealthy estates. These were not garage sale pieces. But my parents, and later me under their supervision, had to engage in restoration. The joinery separated, glues failed, woods moved. Essentially yes, it just comes apart on its own...with time and age.

So I am still not convinced that what one calls a "solid" cue blank is necessarily in much better shape than the one this post is about.

No disrespect to Mr Dayton, of course. I am merely an amateur trying to understand.



.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention old furniture. We have a wood bed circa 1915 or so. Today moving it to clean under it a section that was glued together let loose. First time this has happened in the 40 years we have had this bed. So down to the basement it went and a little clean up of the damaged area,bottle of glue and some clamps and it's fixed.
 
KJ Cues said:
This cue isn't worth repairing and here's why.
The glue is breaking-down and loosing it's adhesion/bonding properties.
At present, it's happening just at the tips of the points.
The same glue was used throughout the cue's construction which means that eventually, it will all let loose.
Just gluing the tips of the points down won't stop that. With time, this cue will start making noises.
That would be your first clue that it's coming apart from the inside out. You won't stop it.


"Cheap fix" & "easy repair" are terms that have no place in cue repair.
Do it right or live to regret it.
Whether you put your name on the repair or not won't make any difference.
When the cue comes apart, you'll be remembered as the one who 'fixed it'.
BTW, what's your rep worth? Rep never comes cheap & easy.
I don't shy away from a challenge but this one is suicide.

KJ
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly
 
TomHay said:
Robin,

If I got the right deal I would buy it just to see what I could do. If its personal it is what it is.

To deal with a customer that might have another result implanted in their head, I give myself enough headaches in a day without self infliction of more.

I think the true answer is where is the cue going and what could be considered as promises that person might think.
Click to expand...


What is the right deal? Make me an offer I have a couple of Titlist cues in the same condition that I am more than will to part with.

Make a reasonble offer and pay with paypal I can ship in the morning!!
 
Exactly Ryan. I hear you also have some pet turkeys too. The wild ones are hard to tame.

At least you did until Thanks Giving.
 
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