Bad habit. You should develop a new habit where you follow the rules. It is clearly and demonstrably a defensive shot. Not grey area, no room for question. Very simple. "Didn't intend to pocket a ball".
KMRUNOUT
scoring defensive shots in apa
- Thread starter lorider
- Start date
Bad habit. You should develop a new habit where you follow the rules. It is clearly and demonstrably a defensive shot. Not grey area, no room for question. Very simple. "Didn't intend to pocket a ball".
KMRUNOUT
I think your assessment above is more in keeping with the APA rules. You highlight another problem...the skill level of the scorekeeper can greatly influence the accuracy of the scorekeeping. On my 9 ball team, our 3 usually keeps score. There have been many times in which I have to convince her that the shot I played was a safe. She simply doesn't understand what I was trying to do, and doesn't recognize the defensive shots I play sometimes. If I wasn't honest and diligent, maybe I could sandbag my way down to an 8
KMRUNOUT (also likes this discussion)
I refrained from making a comment till now I can't believe it's gone this far. In APA matches there are really only 2 things that can happen when a player comes to the table.
Option 1: They are trying to make a shot.
Option 2: They are trying to play safe.
If you hit the towards the pocket with enough force to get it there, full speed, pocket speed or any other speed, it's a shot.
If you have a fully makeable shot with in your skill level, and based on other shot's you've made and it's at a critical point in the game and mysteriously miss a shot ie: 2 way shot also leaving yourself safe in the process guess what you get marked as a defensive shot, period... end of story no questions asked.
If you same as above shoot a incredible 3 rail bank for know reason, when you had simple shot on that ball or another, guess what defensive shot. Why you ask because if your as competitive as you want someone to believe then you would make the high percentage shot therefore extending you turn at the table rather than taking some 2 out of 100 low percentage shot.
Cheaters always look for a loop hole or way around a situation... The only way to keep it honest is to follow the system as it is designed the rest will take care of it self.
http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Please click on the link and watch the Video... This should settle this, there is really no reason to continue arguing.
Black Cat
Option 1: They are trying to make a shot.
Option 2: They are trying to play safe.
If you hit the towards the pocket with enough force to get it there, full speed, pocket speed or any other speed, it's a shot.
If you have a fully makeable shot with in your skill level, and based on other shot's you've made and it's at a critical point in the game and mysteriously miss a shot ie: 2 way shot also leaving yourself safe in the process guess what you get marked as a defensive shot, period... end of story no questions asked.
If you same as above shoot a incredible 3 rail bank for know reason, when you had simple shot on that ball or another, guess what defensive shot. Why you ask because if your as competitive as you want someone to believe then you would make the high percentage shot therefore extending you turn at the table rather than taking some 2 out of 100 low percentage shot.
Cheaters always look for a loop hole or way around a situation... The only way to keep it honest is to follow the system as it is designed the rest will take care of it self.
http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Please click on the link and watch the Video... This should settle this, there is really no reason to continue arguing.
Black Cat
I refrained from making a comment till now I can't believe it's gone this far. In APA matches there are really only 2 things that can happen when a player comes to the table.
Option 1: They are trying to make a shot.
Option 2: They are trying to play safe.
If you hit the towards the pocket with enough force to get it there, full speed, pocket speed or any other speed, it's a shot.
If you have a fully makeable shot with in your skill level, and based on other shot's you've made and it's at a critical point in the game and mysteriously miss a shot ie: 2 way shot also leaving yourself safe in the process guess what you get marked as a defensive shot, period... end of story no questions asked.
If you same as above shoot a incredible 3 rail bank for know reason, when you had simple shot on that ball or another, guess what defensive shot. Why you ask because if your as competitive as you want someone to believe then you would make the high percentage shot therefore extending you turn at the table rather than taking some 2 out of 100 low percentage shot.
Cheaters always look for a loop hole or way around a situation... The only way to keep it honest is to follow the system as it is designed the rest will take care of it self.
http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Please click on the link and watch the Video... This should settle this, there is really no reason to continue arguing.
Black Cat
Let me get this straight. You are saying that if I play a 3 rail bank shot with the intent of potting the ball you would mark it as defensive because of the probability of making the shot?
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If you had the opportunity to shoot that same ball in another pocket with an easier shot, or you had another higher probability shot that you could make and use for position on the next shot, and you for whatever reason decided to take a 2 out of 100 shot and missed, yep I'd make that as a defensive shot.
Reason being if your really trying to win and not run up innings no one would take that shot to begin with. I've been playing league 11 years straight with no breaks sometimes 2 - 3 nights per week. There's not much I haven't seen.
Black Cat
P.S. This is not directed at anyone particular, I just don't understand why this has gone so far. It's really not that complicated to understand.
Who cares? It's gotta be the longest, civil thread this forum has seen in a while. Great job, everyone! :thumbup:
If you had the opportunity to shoot that same ball in another pocket with an easier shot, or you had another higher probability shot that you could make and use for position on the next shot, and you for whatever reason decided to take a 2 out of 100 shot and missed, yep I'd make that as a defensive shot.
Reason being if your really trying to win and not run up innings no one would take that shot to begin with. I've been playing league 11 years straight with no breaks sometimes 2 - 3 nights per week. There's not much I haven't seen.
Black Cat
P.S. This is not directed at anyone particular, I just don't understand why this has gone so far. It's really not that complicated to understand.
What if the easier shot doesn't leave you in a postion to continue the run or you risk breaking up problem balls for your opponent? In those cases it might be best to try a low percent shot with INTENT of making it. That is not a defensive shot. Read the rules in the APA manual.
It's really a case by case situation, if I know you as a highly skilled player and I've seen you kick and bank with the best of them then in that situation I would probably not mark it as a defense. But, there would definitely have to not be any other viable solutions, and I'm only using that as a example. It makes a difference if someone walks up and takes a wack at it or, measures the Diamonds. But, for the most part you can tell if someone is or not is what I'm really getting at.
Black Cat
If you had the opportunity to shoot that same ball in another pocket with an easier shot, or you had another higher probability shot that you could make and use for position on the next shot, and you for whatever reason decided to take a 2 out of 100 shot and missed, yep I'd make that as a defensive shot.
Reason being if your really trying to win and not run up innings no one would take that shot to begin with. I've been playing league 11 years straight with no breaks sometimes 2 - 3 nights per week. There's not much I haven't seen.
Black Cat
P.S. This is not directed at anyone particular, I just don't understand why this has gone so far. It's really not that complicated to understand.
although i have not played league as long as you i have seen quite a bit also.
i play 5 nights a week. apa, napa and a non sanctioned bcapl format league.
let me apply your percentage anology to the scenario in my op.
the player has 2 balls left. 1 is 99.9% makeable " you never know"
lets say the 6 ball. the other is the 5 with a 50% chance.after looking over the yable he decides to make the 5 knowing he can get on the 6 with no problem " lets say 80%."
if he shoots the 6 1st he only has 10% chance of making the 5 and quite possibly hooking himself behind an opponents ball ultimitely giving his opponent ball in hand.
i am going for the 50% ball everyy time vs the 99.9 % shot knowing i may not have a clean shot at my last ball resulting in giving my opponent bih.
by your anology if i miss the 50% shot i am playing defense. i am sorry i just dont agree.
was posting basically the same thing at the same time.:grin-square:
mine was just a more long winded version.
i said the same thing earlier.
aint that just amazing how civil every one is in a thread concerning apa.
yea good job everyone.:grin-square:
It's really a case by case situation, if I know you as a highly skilled player and I've seen you kick and bank with the best of them then in that situation I would probably not mark it as a defense. But, there would definitely have to not be any other viable solutions, and I'm only using that as a example. It makes a difference if someone walks up and takes a wack at it or, measures the Diamonds. But, for the most part you can tell if someone is or not is what I'm really getting at.
Black Cat
My concern with this attitude is that you need to be moving around the table to really know what is and is not viable. If you're sitting at a table keeping score, you don't have a good view of the table.
was posting basically the same thing at the same time.:grin-square:
mine was just a more long winded version.
Hahaha!
What kills me in this is that the people marking unwarranted safeties don't understand that is just as bad as not marking safeties at all. I've even had this discussion with a few of the observers in Vegas. Which are simply LO's that have volunteered for the most part. Some are better than others. But trust me. There is nothing worse than arguing whether a shot was or wasn't safe with a SL3 that is sent there to observe. Its like arguing a speeding ticket with a rookie cop.
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Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk
1st. Question how many people watched the video in my original post?
2nd. All I'm getting at is situational, very few times is an example going to come up as I described. Additionally there is always a shot of some sort available high or low percentage.
But the argument remains, 1. Are you trying to make a shot or,? 2. Are you playing defense? What is the skill level of the player in question? Did they just run 5 balls and mysteriously miss what should have been a simple shot and not leave themselves a shot on the next ball, or just miss it while leaving themselves a shot on the next ball? All of these things come into play or they should, if I'm playing a S/L 2 who can't make 2 balls in a row then I'm going to judge what they do differently then a S/L 6 or, 7 who can run an open table at will. The argument that because a 2 way shot is taken and happened to go shouldn't be marked as a defense is one of judgment. Was it pushed toward the pocket or shot towards the pocket? Did the shooter get shape on the next shot or did they leave themselves hard not expecting the ball to fall. Did the shooter start walking to where the CB is supposed to be going, or to their chair?
There are so many things that go into making the call, but honestly say I rarely get it wrong. But, with that being said veteran players should be keeping score anyway not the 2 or 3 just because no one else want's to do it. And, for the most part the only people that worry about whether or not a defense was marked are the one's trying to run up innings anyway. I play in what fluctuates as the 2nd and 3rd Largest APA League in the Country, there are a lot of things we all do over here the right way.
And, while I'm at it we also complete formal handicap reviews 1 per session, that's 3 per year where each Division Writes up all Players who are playing above or below their S/L and when warranted S/L's are raised or lowered accordingly.
Not trying to argue only shed some light on what should be very simple.
Please watch the Video, it really explains a lot. http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Black Cat
2nd. All I'm getting at is situational, very few times is an example going to come up as I described. Additionally there is always a shot of some sort available high or low percentage.
But the argument remains, 1. Are you trying to make a shot or,? 2. Are you playing defense? What is the skill level of the player in question? Did they just run 5 balls and mysteriously miss what should have been a simple shot and not leave themselves a shot on the next ball, or just miss it while leaving themselves a shot on the next ball? All of these things come into play or they should, if I'm playing a S/L 2 who can't make 2 balls in a row then I'm going to judge what they do differently then a S/L 6 or, 7 who can run an open table at will. The argument that because a 2 way shot is taken and happened to go shouldn't be marked as a defense is one of judgment. Was it pushed toward the pocket or shot towards the pocket? Did the shooter get shape on the next shot or did they leave themselves hard not expecting the ball to fall. Did the shooter start walking to where the CB is supposed to be going, or to their chair?
There are so many things that go into making the call, but honestly say I rarely get it wrong. But, with that being said veteran players should be keeping score anyway not the 2 or 3 just because no one else want's to do it. And, for the most part the only people that worry about whether or not a defense was marked are the one's trying to run up innings anyway. I play in what fluctuates as the 2nd and 3rd Largest APA League in the Country, there are a lot of things we all do over here the right way.
And, while I'm at it we also complete formal handicap reviews 1 per session, that's 3 per year where each Division Writes up all Players who are playing above or below their S/L and when warranted S/L's are raised or lowered accordingly.
Not trying to argue only shed some light on what should be very simple.
Please watch the Video, it really explains a lot. http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Black Cat
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OK, the rule is cut and dried... and for exactly one person in the room, deciding whether or not to mark a safety is a no-brainer.
Unfortunately, that one person, the shooter, is not the guy keeping score.
So the scorekeepers are forced to resort to a subjective intepretation of what they see.
If you ever saw a safety, and the shooter didn't announce it, but you marked it anyway, you made a subjective interpretation.
Do you feel 'interpretation' doesn't happen, or shouldn't happen? Because right here on the APA website, they openly admit it does.
So whatever word you want to use ("subjective", "opinion", "judgment") the scorekeeper does have to make a guess about what he just saw.
He makes his best guess as to the shooter's intent, and marks accordingly.
KM, we have an honest disagreement.
There's no need to say I'm "cheating", that word makes me sound like a shitty human being who's trying to twist the rules to my advantage. I'm not. I'd mark the shot the same way whether it's my teammate or my opponent shooting. So it may help or hurt my team.
Since you consider intent king, it certainly is not my INTENT to gain an unfair advantage, or to ruin the handicapping system, or to unfairly 'ding' someone with a safety they didn't deserve.
We've been doing well in this thread keeping it civil, so please don't wreck that by calling me a cheater. It's rude and there's no reason for it.
---
We actually mostly agree -
We agree intent determines whether a shot is a safe or not.
We agree the percentage of the shot is irrelevant, if you're playing a 2-way
Where we disagree is in this one case whether the shooter's intent was to pocket a ball. Since neither of us is the shooter, both of us is forced to make a guess about his intent.
My guess would be "he had no intention of pocketing a ball", and I'd be very skeptical even if he told me otherwise.
Your guess is "he's playing a 2-way shot", apparently just because he said so.
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1st. Question how many people watched the video in my original post?
2nd. All I'm getting at is situational, very few times is an example going to come up as I described. Additionally there is always a shot of some sort available high or low percentage.
But the argument remains, 1. Are you trying to make a shot or,? 2. Are you playing defense? What is the skill level of the player in question? Did they just run 5 balls and mysteriously miss what should have been a simple shot and not leave themselves a shot on the next ball, or just miss it while leaving themselves a shot on the next ball? All of these things come into play or they should, if I'm playing a S/L 2 who can't make 2 balls in a row then I'm going to judge what they do differently then a S/L 6 or, 7 who can run an open table at will. The argument that because a 2 way shot is taken and happened to go shouldn't be marked as a defense is one of judgment. Was it pushed toward the pocket or shot towards the pocket? Did the shooter get shape on the next shot or did they leave themselves hard not expecting the ball to fall. Did the shooter start walking to where the CB is supposed to be going, or to their chair?
There are so many things that go into making the call, but honestly say I rarely get it wrong. But, with that being said veteran players should be keeping score anyway not the 2 or 3 just because no one else want's to do it. And, for the most part the only people that worry about whether or not a defense was marked are the one's trying to run up innings anyway. I play in what fluctuates as the 2nd and 3rd Largest APA League in the Country, there are a lot of things we all do over here the right way.
And, while I'm at it we also complete formal handicap reviews 1 per session, that's 3 per year where each Division Writes up all Players who are playing above or below their S/L and when warranted S/L's are raised or lowered accordingly.
Not trying to argue only shed some light on what should be very simple.
Please watch the Video, it really explains a lot. http://youtu.be/wzfvYHM3CEs
Black Cat
yea i watched the video.
according to what you look for in determining defensive you would have a field day marking my innings.
sometimes i can make a kick shot you would not believe and miss the easiest hanger you ever saw all in the same match. even missed a shot with bih last night, was that a defensive shot ?
i am a 5 and beat a 7 3-2 in 6 innings sun night.
lost to a 4 last night3-3 in 15 innings.
you never can tell which lorider will show up from night to night, the one that plays like a 7 on one night and a 3 the next.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the video. Well Lorider I don't think it would be that difficult at least no more difficult than anyone else. How many times have you taken a shot for granted just knowing you were going to make it didn't focus and missed? Doesn't matter BIH or not it happens, question is how do you perform historically? However when you missed the BIH last night did you miss on purpose or were you playing safe? Most people would think that you were attempting to make the shot, so no safety would be marked.
It all comes down to as others have said to Intent, it's a big difference between the only shot you have on the table is a 3 rail kick, vs. you take a 3 rail kick because you don't want to take a higher percentage shot and use that to get position on the next ball. If that were the case and your playing a shooter and not a banger wouldn't you question the intent or not. I think it's pretty clear, I was in an APA Tournament once I played defense on a guy all he had was a 5 rail kick guess what he did, he measured the shot went 5 rails and made the shot. My point in that is it was his only option.
Black Cat
Banks
Banned
It's people like you that have caused my 8b defensive percentage to skyrocket to .8 !!!
Of course, once you've had a "7" night, everybody and their mother whines and cries about how you're such a sandbagger. Nobody complains when you play like a 3, though!
Unless he's a good 7, a 9 or it determines a hill/hill win/loss(hail mary shot), that's going down as a D all day long. 5 rails.. dude's lucky to get a hit. If he's below a 7/9 and says he wasn't at least trying to prevent BiH, start asking him what he wants to put on that shot to try it again.
No, although it appears that some on this thread may mark it that way, depending on your skill level.
One thing I've noticed on this thread is that differing opinions seem to run about 50/50 on what constitutes a defensive shot. So, does anyone really think there is not a "gray area" involved with the rule interpretation? And yes, I've seen/watched the video, 3 or 4 times. This is why the scoring system will never be perfect, too much subjectiveness on the scorekeepers part. We can only do the best that we can with what we have to work with.
As someone else posted, I too call all my safties, usually before I shoot them. Sometimes they are so obvious that I don't call it until I see my scorekeeper not marking it.
Maniac