Bonus Ball

Let me ask for a clarification then, please. :)

Would you participate in a pool event funded by anyone who acquired their funds illicitly? I'm reading those words you wrote: truth, legality, and morality.

Ohhhhh, I see...the old "six degrees of separation" defense. :)

At some point we can make the argument that there is always some pee in the pool, so let me answer your question as best I can: I would NOT knowingly, willingly, and/or directly be involved with or be a party to an enterprise designed and intended to defraud the innocent.

J
 
Ohhhhh, I see...the old "six degrees of separation" defense. :)

At some point we can make the argument that there is always some pee in the pool, so let me answer your question as best I can: I would NOT knowingly, willingly, and/or directly be involved with or be a party to an enterprise designed and intended to defraud the innocent.

J

You, my friend, are in the minority. :smile:
 
I had a test league in Canada that was amazing!

Can you post a link to the website that had the league results, participation, etc. you have said this multiple times but honestly I have not seen one other person post on here the same. The website of this amazing league would go a long way.
 
You, my friend, are in the minority. :smile:

Thanks JAM, you're pretty unique as well. :thumbup:

One last note here. Often one's circumstances make is easier to preach a particular position, but when their circumstances change, and change they will, that becomes the true test.

Be well.

J
 
Thanks JAM, you're pretty unique as well. :thumbup:

One last note here. Often one's circumstances make is easier to preach a particular position, but when their circumstances change, and change they will, that becomes the true test.

Be well.

J

Truer woulds could not be spoken. Very well said. :smile:

So what does the Bonus Ball promoter do for a living? Has anybody broached this subject?
 
I just don't get the whole construction delays stuff because I think you could find a space and do your thing. After all the porn guys manage to do it by renting a nice house for the week. I feel that if you did that then no one would care what was happening inside the warehouse.


JB,

to answer this specifically, I spent probably $40,000,000 to $50,000,000 in building out space for biz, residential improvements, all using State Licensed contractors over the past 15 years, it was a constant on going thing, not a build it and use it-finished done. We were constantly adapting our business offices to fit the needs of our business-we had about 50,000 sqft. Also owned apt buildings and a 80 door Motel(still own that one). I've had about 100,000 sqft of residential dozen living space for myself over that period of time I again had licensed contractors do the work. thats my credentials in vegas alone.


In LA i have almost 10,000 sqft house, which as usual im getting work done on.


Before I moved to Vegas in 91ish I had 2 retail stores I leased as gray shell space and built them out in norcal. So point is i'm far from being a GC but I know my around the trades a bit.


In Vegas universally when you have anything built, work done by any trade based in Vegas you will get the wood put to you-some way some how. I warned Larry about this. The casino's that go up real fast have "juice" and their own inspectors which is a enormous help. the tradesmen who live/work in Vegas are 90% drunk and degenerate gamblers, they are late, no-show, do shobby work and their contractor bosses are just as bad. The smartest thing we could do for jobs was bring in the Trades from LA to do the job and put them in a hotel, that works for a week or two until they get board and go out after that they are shot too.

in stark contrast in LA I make a few calls, get bids and quality work, its a breeze. there is noplace more difficult to get anything done that Vegas, they steal all toe tools too. go to a vegas pawn shop and youll see 40 Saz-Alls in the back(or what they are called).

Even after all those years experience I got robbed for $325,000. I hired a contractor to put in a floor inside a building that had 35' tall lid, so i could have double the sqst. I checked with the contractors board, clean for 27 years. I was making progress payments(I was in Germany so I didnt get verification of work & was in bad shape with my back). Not much work was done, a sub didnt get paid for the steel $140,000 and called me, i knew i was in trouble I had cut that check 3 -4 weeks before hand. In the end he clipped a bar for $700K and me for $325K left town to Utah never to be seen again, no recourse for me. That was a exception cause of the collapse, for a total loss like that. but along the way only once did I have a guy that was ok a electrician, however he robbed my biz partner for $25,000 for work on his house.


its the wild wild west there and even tho i was there for 20 years, didnt matter-nobody can fade it there. I saw Larry getting screwed long before he did and warned him, I wanted to be wrong but i wasnt. Nobody but casino's can get it right in Vegas. they are all bad.
 
I'm sure you know plenty about $$$. :thumbup:

But to say there is no point of marketing until the project is done makes no business sense at all. :D

your right if its really going to open, or you KNOW for sure when your launching. However if the launch date has been moved a few times(for what ever reason) Its a heavy pen to lift up to write the check for promotion. The launch and promotion have to be sycronised, For example in 1976 if you started the iPhone advertising it would have been a bit soon, as people were not aware of smart phones and what they can do. So all that advertising $$$ back in 76 would have been poorly spent.


the time to market is when you know of a firm launch date or quarter, month etc. then ramp up the marketing the closer you fall to that date, which is sort os what they did in Oct, they shot the video's last fall sometime(I doint recall the exact dates) they put up the site and links to the video's and came to AZB(a good idea in pool these days) and got the players(pro's) behind them. even Paid them for a MONTH and not one of them hit a ball-they did that in good faith.

I personally haven't spoke to Larry since I helped him an a small favor back in nov, he has my number. I lived a mile away from where he is building out the stadium and made my self available to him for free anytime for consultation should he want to talk to someone who knows his way around the mine field of doing biz in Nevada(not too bad there actually). He knows he can call me anytime for help.

What I think, and this is just a guess is going on is he got kicked in the teeth a few too many times in Vegas by contractors(it is different there see my post above) and the County possibly. what ever has caused the delays has taken a toll on him financially and emotionally. I dont get emotional about biz, but I think Larry does in this case as he really appears to care about what he is doing.


If you add all that up, i dont think there will be a launch date announced until the ink is dry, and the last nail is in so to speak. Which means the marketing and publicity will not be sycronised as optimally and it could be for BB, however the damage another failed launch date can cause is more harmful than, less than ideal marketing. so its the lesser of 2 evils.


thats how i see it

I wish Larry the best and he can have my help anytime he likes. thats all I can do. might not be much but probably better than nothing

best
eric
 
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Bonus Ball may or may not happen as a professional league at this point in time. That much we know. I have absolutely no business advice to offer Larry. It's his money and he is free to spend it as he choses, "He who has the gold makes the rules." Fatboy can relate!

I sympathize with Larry and do not put him in the same category as Trudough by any means. I believe his intentions are good and he is not out to deceive anyone. I can't same the same for Trudough. IMO he used the pool players and discarded them when his scheme failed.

Larry went in his pocket and paid all these guys three grand who came out to Vegas in December, a big chunk of change. I admire his tenacity and wish him well in the future. We need people like Larry Chiborak involved in the billiard industry. It's men like him that will ultimately make a difference in the future of this sport. He is not sitting on the sidelines and b-tching and moaning, he is on the playing field fighting the good fight. I don't even know the guy but if I ever meet him I will shake his hand and say thanks! :thumbup2:


thanks Jay, and I agree with you 1000% on everything. Larry has been good from everything I have seen. I dont see any monkey biz here at all.
 
JB,

to answer this specifically, I spent probably $40,000,000 to $50,000,000 in building out space for biz, residential improvements, all using State Licensed contractors over the past 15 years, it was a constant on going thing, not a build it and use it-finished done. We were constantly adapting our business offices to fit the needs of our business-we had about 50,000 sqft. Also owned apt buildings and a 80 door Motel(still own that one). I've had about 100,000 sqft of residential dozen living space for myself over that period of time I again had licensed contractors do the work. thats my credentials in vegas alone.


In LA i have almost 10,000 sqft house, which as usual im getting work done on.


Before I moved to Vegas in 91ish I had 2 retail stores I leased as gray shell space and built them out in norcal. So point is i'm far from being a GC but I know my around the trades a bit.


In Vegas universally when you have anything built, work done by any trade based in Vegas you will get the wood put to you-some way some how. I warned Larry about this. The casino's that go up real fast have "juice" and their own inspectors which is a enormous help. the tradesmen who live/work in Vegas are 90% drunk and degenerate gamblers, they are late, no-show, do shobby work and their contractor bosses are just as bad. The smartest thing we could do for jobs was bring in the Trades from LA to do the job and put them in a hotel, that works for a week or two until they get board and go out after that they are shot too.

in stark contrast in LA I make a few calls, get bids and quality work, its a breeze. there is noplace more difficult to get anything done that Vegas, they steal all toe tools too. go to a vegas pawn shop and youll see 40 Saz-Alls in the back(or what they are called).

Even after all those years experience I got robbed for $325,000. I hired a contractor to put in a floor inside a building that had 35' tall lid, so i could have double the sqst. I checked with the contractors board, clean for 27 years. I was making progress payments(I was in Germany so I didnt get verification of work & was in bad shape with my back). Not much work was done, a sub didnt get paid for the steel $140,000 and called me, i knew i was in trouble I had cut that check 3 -4 weeks before hand. In the end he clipped a bar for $700K and me for $325K left town to Utah never to be seen again, no recourse for me. That was a exception cause of the collapse, for a total loss like that. but along the way only once did I have a guy that was ok a electrician, however he robbed my biz partner for $25,000 for work on his house.


its the wild wild west there and even tho i was there for 20 years, didnt matter-nobody can fade it there. I saw Larry getting screwed long before he did and warned him, I wanted to be wrong but i wasnt. Nobody but casino's can get it right in Vegas. they are all bad.

I can relate to that and in many ways it seems very similar to to building in China.

But what I don't understand is that they can't find a building already built, go in and put up some scaffolding and make a makeshift set that works and do it.

I think you know and I know that the "set" is only a small space and is easily controlled. I mean I have been around several pool events that are being filmed and the playing arena is tightly controlled as far as what the viewers see. They move into a shopping mall and set up scaffolding around the table, rig the lighting, have a control booth and for four days they produce a live broadcast that is slick and professional.

So why is this so different for Bonus Ball. Surely they can't be dependent on charging for admission? Or is it because of wanting to have a an actual facility in place, Bonus Ball HQ so to speak where people can come and experience that it's not a makeshift thing?

If that then I can definitely understand the delay.
 
I can relate to that and in many ways it seems very similar to to building in China.

But what I don't understand is that they can't find a building already built, go in and put up some scaffolding and make a makeshift set that works and do it.

I think you know and I know that the "set" is only a small space and is easily controlled. I mean I have been around several pool events that are being filmed and the playing arena is tightly controlled as far as what the viewers see. They move into a shopping mall and set up scaffolding around the table, rig the lighting, have a control booth and for four days they produce a live broadcast that is slick and professional.

So why is this so different for Bonus Ball. Surely they can't be dependent on charging for admission? Or is it because of wanting to have a an actual facility in place, Bonus Ball HQ so to speak where people can come and experience that it's not a makeshift thing?

If that then I can definitely understand the delay.


From what I have been told, China is difficult as well.

I agree with you again, I dont understand why they "Bit" so much off before they had fully tested the game(by using a temporary solution for a TV table) like they do at Us Open or derby etc. They could have launched a soft or mini season with a moth to month lease on a space in Vegas(pleanty of that there) and had a scaffold/seating co come in build out the seating and Nathan is doing the video/audio.

Had that worked then they could have worked out some if the yet be known bugs(cause it aint launched) and then went on from there developing their product/brand.


Not starting out like a TAR studio(not a knock, its great for what it is but too small for BB's idea), but not a full blown permanent arena. I think the correct biz move would have been something between TAR and what is going on now would have been the best solution for them.


start in the middle, soft opening mini season with less teams and "Grow" into a full blown venue. Thats how I would have proceeded and the players I paid to play and chose would have got behind it as they have BB.

I hope Larry can do it, like I said I'll do what I can. Love to see pool blow up big, cue sports in general for that matter
 
From what I have been told, China is difficult as well.

I agree with you again, I dont understand why they "Bit" so much off before they had fully tested the game(by using a temporary solution for a TV table) like they do at Us Open or derby etc. They could have launched a soft or mini season with a moth to month lease on a space in Vegas(pleanty of that there) and had a scaffold/seating co come in build out the seating and Nathan is doing the video/audio.

Had that worked then they could have worked out some if the yet be known bugs(cause it aint launched) and then went on from there developing their product/brand.


Not starting out like a TAR studio(not a knock, its great for what it is but too small for BB's idea), but not a full blown permanent arena. I think the correct biz move would have been something between TAR and what is going on now would have been the best solution for them.


start in the middle, soft opening mini season with less teams and "Grow" into a full blown venue. Thats how I would have proceeded and the players I paid to play and chose would have got behind it as they have BB.

I hope Larry can do it, like I said I'll do what I can. Love to see pool blow up big, cue sports in general for that matter

I have a feeling the project is a go big or go home type thing. Feels to me like a plunge. So much about the whole thing makes absolutely no sense that all I can come up with is Larry wanted what Larry wanted and he has the check book so thats how it was done.

We have seen the same thing several times in the recent past. No surprise if it happens again.
 
I have to respectfully disagree here. Do you think the MLB, PGA, NBA, NFL, or UFC got to where they are at because they worked around other leagues or organizations schedules??

Granted, I don't think BB is going to work out. That's my personal opinion. But if they are "in it to win it" so to speak, and they have the funding to do so......no offense, but sorry for those other promotions luck.

Obviously working together is a good thing, but if pool is ever going to have a dominant league or organization take control, they're going to have to step on some toes, just like organizations in other games/sports had to do.

Business is business, and if BB has the funding and takes off, shit happens....
I agree. Its just how things are. Maybe promoters of existing events should institute a policy that if you miss one year at an event due to playing in a competing event you must sit out the next year as well. That would at least force players to take a real look at what makes sense for them in the long term.

Of course it will never happen but its an interesting point to ponder.
 
In the "Stop making new pool games" thread, Barry Bremner announced early this morning that he is no longer working with Larry Chiborak on the Bonus Ball pro league. I think this is an important enough development to warrant repeating what Barry said in this thread about whether Bonus Ball is still alive.

Here's what Barry said:

"Not part of the WPBL Boon Doogle, Chiborak took that over from me and has made this mess on his own. I am still a shareholder of Bonus Ball and VP of World Wide Sport of Billiards. Larry is dead to me.

I am promoting Bonus Ball on my own and still would like to sell my shares in the World Wide Sport of Billiards. Larry is in hiding and won't answer my emails or texts. Has anyone beside Nathan really talked to him in the last three months. Since I discovered the contractor mess and verbally lashed out at him for all the stupidy he has done since going solo on this project, he has refused to talk to me. I guess I'm fired as VP but I have not received that information in writing as of yet. I am waiting!

I have since found out that he has brought in several other investors into a new corporation without my knowledge. I wish him well but I have many concerns about the direction he has taken. I am also concerned about the players getting paid. I have no evidence that he has the funds and actually have more reason to believe he will not have the funds. We have asked for financials from him (law in Canada for shareholders) but he has never produced them. I have suggested to some of the professionals that they protect themselves this time by demanding air fare and a months of wages up front! I also suggest that they have the play-off money put forth into a trust fund with the lawyer of their choice. Simply just good business."​

Here's the original post: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4125956&postcount=56
 
In the "Stop making new pool games" thread, Barry Bremner announced early this morning that he is no longer working with Larry Chiborak on the Bonus Ball pro league. I think this is an important enough development to warrant repeating what Barry said in this thread about whether Bonus Ball is still alive.

Here's what Barry said:

"Not part of the WPBL Boon Doogle, Chiborak took that over from me and has made this mess on his own. I am still a shareholder of Bonus Ball and VP of World Wide Sport of Billiards. Larry is dead to me.

I am promoting Bonus Ball on my own and still would like to sell my shares in the World Wide Sport of Billiards. Larry is in hiding and won't answer my emails or texts. Has anyone beside Nathan really talked to him in the last three months. Since I discovered the contractor mess and verbally lashed out at him for all the stupidy he has done since going solo on this project, he has refused to talk to me. I guess I'm fired as VP but I have not received that information in writing as of yet. I am waiting!

I have since found out that he has brought in several other investors into a new corporation without my knowledge. I wish him well but I have many concerns about the direction he has taken. I am also concerned about the players getting paid. I have no evidence that he has the funds and actually have more reason to believe he will not have the funds. We have asked for financials from him (law in Canada for shareholders) but he has never produced them. I have suggested to some of the professionals that they protect themselves this time by demanding air fare and a months of wages up front! I also suggest that they have the play-off money put forth into a trust fund with the lawyer of their choice. Simply just good business."​

Here's the original post: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4125956&postcount=56

Shiiiiiiiit.

Bonus Ball IS going to happen. I cant say its going to make a boat load of cash but for sure it will happen.

Maybe someone should ask Barry when he was let go from Bonus Ball. From what Ive seen, especially on here is that Barry was a big negative for Bonus Ball. He got into arguments, made himself look stupid and then of course because everyone assumed he was the Bonus Ball guy that made them look stupid also. Barry was/is an embarassment to himself.

I wouldnt want to stereotype but he seems very trailer trashesque to me. I dont live in a palace but I dont act like a complete idiot either. There were discussions on here that he engaged in with members where if they were pro bonus ball I am sure a lot of bandwagon jumpers would have came on board also. People who are respected because they call them as they see them or for what they've done for billiards on their own. This was a huge negative for Bonus Ball and it was all because Barry wouldnt keep his mouth (fingers) shut.
 
there has been a lot of collateral damage to the players(who can least afford it), for example Rodney, Appleton are living in Vegas now(not for the buffets) because of the promise of BB. If it dont fly they dont get a refund.


Here is another one with out naming names, one of the BB players runs a tour, he moved around all his tour dates so he could do BB & his tour, well thats a mess and the amateur players in his tour have no idea the grief its cost him, or themselfs because some of the regional events are cancelled now. So they lost and didnt know it.

Lots of fall out,

however I did hear from the top, things look good. Now are we rearranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic?

or is SOMETHING really happening?


I was there saw the space, it was leased, i know the rent $, its big, I know the player payroll its big, so $$$ has been spent. that's why I still am optimistic, but optimism is also the fuel for any scam(please dont bring this topic up), I know that side of biz too-not proud of it. But man if something dont happen before July BCA at the Rio-wow the shits gonna hit the fan.


hope it goes off and the players do great, starting any new thing is work, time and always over budget.

best
eric:)
 
I'm curious. You say you made your number available and helped with a small favor, yet previously you stated that no one but casinos gets things done, and you yourself have been ripped off multiple times, but this doesn't happen If you are juiced in, and you aren't.

Last I checked, you aren't a casino.

Could you please explain what help are you to the project?


your right if its really going to open, or you KNOW for sure when your launching. However if the launch date has been moved a few times(for what ever reason) Its a heavy pen to lift up to write the check for promotion. The launch and promotion have to be sycronised, For example in 1976 if you started the iPhone advertising it would have been a bit soon, as people were not aware of smart phones and what they can do. So all that advertising $$$ back in 76 would have been poorly spent.


the time to market is when you know of a firm launch date or quarter, month etc. then ramp up the marketing the closer you fall to that date, which is sort os what they did in Oct, they shot the video's last fall sometime(I doint recall the exact dates) they put up the site and links to the video's and came to AZB(a good idea in pool these days) and got the players(pro's) behind them. even Paid them for a MONTH and not one of them hit a ball-they did that in good faith.

I personally haven't spoke to Larry since I helped him an a small favor back in nov, he has my number. I lived a mile away from where he is building out the stadium and made my self available to him for free anytime for consultation should he want to talk to someone who knows his way around the mine field of doing biz in Nevada(not too bad there actually). He knows he can call me anytime for help.

What I think, and this is just a guess is going on is he got kicked in the teeth a few too many times in Vegas by contractors(it is different there see my post above) and the County possibly. what ever has caused the delays has taken a toll on him financially and emotionally. I dont get emotional about biz, but I think Larry does in this case as he really appears to care about what he is doing.


If you add all that up, i dont think there will be a launch date announced until the ink is dry, and the last nail is in so to speak. Which means the marketing and publicity will not be sycronised as optimally and it could be for BB, however the damage another failed launch date can cause is more harmful than, less than ideal marketing. so its the lesser of 2 evils.


thats how i see it

I wish Larry the best and he can have my help anytime he likes. thats all I can do. might not be much but probably better than nothing

best
eric
 
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