Pro Pool players courting disaster

[The Renfro]

No offense Lenny but I don't think you likely know anything about the cost structure if you think shutting down for a bye week will cost thousands for Bonus Ball... Aside from the sunk costs which will go on every single week of the year if BB is in session or not I do not see where the meter runs on anything but overhead which is sunk... No match.. no need to pay the players, refs or staff for that weekend...

We are talking about DCC, Ultimate 10-Ball,The Southern Classic, The US Open, The 3 US Open CSI Events, the bar table championships and the Turning Stone events....

These events are all over the calendar and have been for years... SO some of them are likely a moot point when BB has a standard season of 26 weeks so only some will need to be worked around...

Here is the issue as I see it.. By refusing to work around the promoters whose shoulders Larry is now trying to stand on he is creating a lot of animosity in the industry from promoters and fans alike..

Without the events mentioned would we even have pro players for BB to fill rosters with? These events are what created our perception of who the pros are and if they go away and BB fails then what? Or BB succeeds and the other tournaments go away... Where will the new talent for the rosters be developed and tested??

This a slippery slope and it did not have to be... I think the advice to not work around other tournaments came from a bad source and Larry had stated in the past that he would work with promoters if possible.. He told me that in person... Barry was the one who told me that it was upto the players and no events would be worked around...

If he works with the existing promoters they will likely respond in kind... I know the pool playing audience is not the target market but I can guarantee that if a pool player's friends who don't play start watching it and get given down the road it can't be good for anyone....

Chris

 

[nathandumoulin]

No offense Lenny but I don't think you likely know anything about the cost structure if you think shutting down for a bye week will cost thousands for Bonus Ball... Aside from the sunk costs which will go on every single week of the year if BB is in session or not I do not see where the meter runs on anything but overhead which is sunk... No match.. no need to pay the players, refs or staff for that weekend...

Actually Lenny was actually spot on.

Season 1 and 2 will run almost back to back, and then we have someone interested in leasing the studio during the off time. Every week we take off costs a significant amount.

 

[justadub]

I was sent a message that the person did not understand why people are undermining a new entity investing in pool. I do not get it either but it certainly is very telling at the same time.

Surely you guys can understand why there is a bit of a backlash by now....

If Bonus Ball had worked with the promoters of the existing BIG events, and tried to work around them, instead of scheduling on top of them, you would have had very little of the backlash you are seeing now. Yes, there would be the usual pot shots that anything on the internet generates, but you would not be seeing the serious statements of concern by many people very invested in this industry.

Wanna know why? Because if you all were working together, the industry as a whole thrives. But when you schedule on top of MAJOR existing events, people are going to push back.

Now this is the point where you say "the players have a choice to play in what ever events they so choose, we allowed them to do so..." or some such. That doesn't address the issue, it deflects from it. If you didn't have 40 some odd of the better players in the country tied up with your product, where do you think they would be when Tunica rolls around? Pretty easy guess. Yet now those same players have to choose... Some will, some won't. But the turnout is going to be smaller, regardless.

You will also say that the promoter of these events could have come to you folks to see what could be done....yet those folks have had their events scheduled far before Bonus Ball existed. Why should they be coming to you? It would have been rather easy for you folks to be able to account for any of this when generating your schedules, as the big events have been publicized for some time now. And oddly enough, those folks tend to work around each others schedules so that there isn't conflict. Pretty amazing, huh?

Next up you will cite how you built this multi million dollar facility, and that it just can't be shut down for someone else's event. Perhaps I missed it, but were you planning on running 52 weeks a year? Somehow I doubt it. I fully believe that if you folks wanted to, you could have accounted for the major events and built down time into your schedule to accommodate it. I am sure there will be production and promotion duties that can be fit into such times, facility maintenance and upkeep, and no doubt countless other things that I am unaware of. The point it you could have worked around it, you just chose not to work around it.

I feel like you folks decided that you were gonna do what you were gonna do, and to hell with anyone else. I think that others here feel similarly. And I think that is what is putting folks off. I said it months ago, and I'll say it again. You guys really dropped the ball when you didn't set up a public relations plan of action from the get go. This has been a PR nightmare since I've been aware of the project, and I'm here quite regularly.

I just wish you guys might acknowledge that folks are upset because of the schedule conflicts, instead of saying "I don't understand why everyone is wishing us to fail before we even start". If you say that can't see the reasons for the backlash, I would have to say that I don't believe you.

You may very well have a great product. It's a shame that it had to be launched this way. And that it had to divide members of the industry, rather than build with them.

 

[The Renfro]

Actually Lenny was actually spot on.

Season 1 and 2 will run almost back to back, and then we have someone interested in leasing the studio during the off time. Every week we take off costs a significant amount.

OK cool enough then Nathan... if there is a lease of the studio involved between seasons then that clouds the water for sure...

That does possibly explain how things have progressed....

Thanks,
Chris

 

[CJ Wiley]

How many people in the United States will work for free, and even worse PAY TO WORK?

Yes sad most amateurs think pool consists 1 or 2 nights a week on a 7 foot pool table. The industry can blame itself for that.

The issue with Pro Tournaments now is only 15% of the players make a profit.

Imagine a business that only paid 15% of their employees.....I doubt if they would ever go back to work and I don't think people would be encouraging them to go in the first place (knowing the odds were 7/1 against making money).

I have no "dog in the fight" either, I just look at it more as a business proposition. It would be tough for me to work a job where the odds were 7/1 AGAINST me getting a paycheck after I did all the work to prepare (for the job) and then spend almost a week working and paying expenses.

This really isn't being a Pro, being a Pro means getting guaranteed money, back when I was playing several of us were making over 100,000 a year on sponsorship, and other "pool related ventures"....I know Earl was making almost $200,000 a year on sponsorship alone. Now the top players make $500 a month.....this is very sad indeed, and really not worth the risk.

I hope all the tournaments fill up, but the reality is 80% of the players will be financially in the red for going. I, for one can't blame them for staying home instead of going up against this unfair situation. How many people in the United States will work for free, and even worse PAY TO WORK? 'The Game is the Teacher' .com

 

[tanco]

Actually Lenny was actually spot on.

Season 1 and 2 will run almost back to back, and then we have someone interested in leasing the studio during the off time. Every week we take off costs a significant amount.

There is not going to be a season 2. I will bet on it.

 

[brandoncook26]

The issue with Pro Tournaments now is only 15% of the players make a profit.

Imagine a business that only paid 15% of their employees.....I doubt if they would ever go back to work and I don't think people would be encouraging them to go in the first place (knowing the odds were 7/1 against making money).

I have no "dog in the fight" either, I just look at it more as a business proposition. It would be tough for me to work a job where the odds were 7/1 AGAINST me getting a paycheck after I did all the work to prepare (for the job) and then spend almost a week working and paying expenses.

This really isn't being a Pro, being a Pro means getting guaranteed money, back when I was playing several of us were making over 100,000 a year on sponsorship, and other "pool related ventures"....I know Earl was making almost $200,000 a year on sponsorship alone. Now the top players make $500 a month.....this is very sad indeed, and really not worth the risk.

I hope all the tournaments fill up, but the reality is 80% of the players will be financially in the red for going. I, for one can't blame them for staying home instead of going up against this unfair situation. How many people in the United States will work for free, and even worse PAY TO WORK? 'The Game is the Teacher' .com

This isn't really true. There are plenty of pro golfers who struggle and don't really make a living. People think that golfers make a killing, but really only the top guys do. If you don't make the cut after two days, you get paid zero and still have to shell out the expenses. Only about the top two hundred guys on tour make over $100k, and their expenses are very high. Last year #220 on the PGA tour made $57,000.

I know golfers as a whole make a lot more than pool players, but being a "pro" in no way means your earnings are guaranteed. NFL players do not have guaranteed contracts. They are paid for that season but can be cut at anytime. When all this money is being thrown around, it is always for the top guys in every sport.

 

[nathandumoulin]

There is not going to be a season 2. I will bet on it.

Even knowing the investors went into this planning to lose a million in the first season?

Why would anyone put up this kind of money, knowing they'll lose it at the start, only to pull out during the year where the real business model gets implemented?

 

[watchez]

Are there still opportunities for other investors - I don't have a million dollars but I would love the opportunity to put up money for the next two years knowing it will come back to me and then some in the third year. Most pool players think that if you loan them money, after two years the debt is forgotten. Bonus Ball seems like a much better place to put your money.

 

[1on1pooltournys]

Are there still opportunities for other investors - I don't have a million dollars but I would love the opportunity to put up money for the next two years knowing it will come back to me and then some in the third year. Most pool players think that if you loan them money, after two years the debt is forgotten. Bonus Ball seems like a much better place to put your money.

It's the good old two year rule!!

 

[JumpinJoe]

In fairness, my understanding is that the Seminoles left because the board members who liked pool were replaced by board members who didn't care as much for pool. It had nothing to do with whether they were making money from pool.

Mike

That is 200% correct.
David cypress ran the tribe, was replaced and so went all the pool. There was way more pool events then the Seminole tour also. They held 6/8 events a year in Florida that you had to be in the know to play. On the reservations etc. It had nothing to do with the tour making money, they GAVE to pool because they love it.

O.B. Osceola got pool really on the scene in the late 90s with the tribe. Then came Cypress, who was great, now the new guy and its over. Until their next election hopefully.

 

[JumpinJoe]

On a side note, I don't see bonus ball finishing season 1, he'll its not EVEN started yet.
I wished they would start, then they will have a right to defend it.

 

[JumpinJoe]

There's probably a better shot at round 2 of DAZ vs. BRETT, then a season 2 of Bonus Ball.

 

[nathandumoulin]

There's probably a better shot at round 2 of DAZ vs. BRETT, then a season 2 of Bonus Ball.

lol, pretty sure that's inevitable.

 

[CJ Wiley]

ow much money does the last place golfer on the pga tour make a year on average?

This isn't really true. There are plenty of pro golfers who struggle and don't really make a living. People think that golfers make a killing, but really only the top guys do. If you don't make the cut after two days, you get paid zero and still have to shell out the expenses. Only about the top two hundred guys on tour make over $100k, and their expenses are very high. Last year #220 on the PGA tour made $57,000.

I know golfers as a whole make a lot more than pool players, but being a "pro" in no way means your earnings are guaranteed. NFL players do not have guaranteed contracts. They are paid for that season but can be cut at anytime. When all this money is being thrown around, it is always for the top guys in every sport.

My point is whatever you do in life if you're going up against 7/1 odds of getting your money back and making a profit it's not a good proposition. This is just the reality of going to Pro Pool Tournaments, and for 70% of the field their odds are MUCH lower.

I would play in EVERY pro tournament if there was ESPN or a Major TV station involved because then I could get sponsors and make money as a result of the exposure I would get on TV. These players don't even have that opportunity. The highest paid pool player makes less than 30k in endorsements from what I understand...and the average for the TOP 10 is probably less than 10k a year.

These are the things I've figured into my incentives to play and I always get a voice telling me "don't be silly, it's not worth it".....and the voice comes from my greatest adviser. 'The Game is the Adviser"

Here's a google result for the Last Place on the PGA TOUR:


How much money does the last place golfer on the pga tour make a year on average? Q:
In: Sports › Golf › PGA Tour
Rate This Answer
The bottom of the players who make the cut at the PGA Championship typically make somewhere around $7,500-$12,000.

- See more at: http://www.chacha.com/question/how-...r-make-a-year-on-average#sthash.w1FbHwAs.dpuf

 

[lfigueroa]

Waterhole's, Lou, you really are a piece of work, You talk like people that aren't as successful as you are not worthy. Guess what Lou, You are very small...........

metaphor |ˈmetəˌfôr, -fər|
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable: “I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors | her poetry depends on suggestion and metaphor.
• a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, esp. something abstract: the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering.

Lou Figueroa

 

[thebighurt]

What team is Shane playing for?

 

[lfigueroa]

Surely you guys can understand why there is a bit of a backlash by now....

If Bonus Ball had worked with the promoters of the existing BIG events, and tried to work around them, instead of scheduling on top of them, you would have had very little of the backlash you are seeing now. Yes, there would be the usual pot shots that anything on the internet generates, but you would not be seeing the serious statements of concern by many people very invested in this industry.

Wanna know why? Because if you all were working together, the industry as a whole thrives. But when you schedule on top of MAJOR existing events, people are going to push back.

Now this is the point where you say "the players have a choice to play in what ever events they so choose, we allowed them to do so..." or some such. That doesn't address the issue, it deflects from it. If you didn't have 40 some odd of the better players in the country tied up with your product, where do you think they would be when Tunica rolls around? Pretty easy guess. Yet now those same players have to choose... Some will, some won't. But the turnout is going to be smaller, regardless.

You will also say that the promoter of these events could have come to you folks to see what could be done....yet those folks have had their events scheduled far before Bonus Ball existed. Why should they be coming to you? It would have been rather easy for you folks to be able to account for any of this when generating your schedules, as the big events have been publicized for some time now. And oddly enough, those folks tend to work around each others schedules so that there isn't conflict. Pretty amazing, huh?

Next up you will cite how you built this multi million dollar facility, and that it just can't be shut down for someone else's event. Perhaps I missed it, but were you planning on running 52 weeks a year? Somehow I doubt it. I fully believe that if you folks wanted to, you could have accounted for the major events and built down time into your schedule to accommodate it. I am sure there will be production and promotion duties that can be fit into such times, facility maintenance and upkeep, and no doubt countless other things that I am unaware of. The point it you could have worked around it, you just chose not to work around it.

I feel like you folks decided that you were gonna do what you were gonna do, and to hell with anyone else. I think that others here feel similarly. And I think that is what is putting folks off. I said it months ago, and I'll say it again. You guys really dropped the ball when you didn't set up a public relations plan of action from the get go. This has been a PR nightmare since I've been aware of the project, and I'm here quite regularly.

I just wish you guys might acknowledge that folks are upset because of the schedule conflicts, instead of saying "I don't understand why everyone is wishing us to fail before we even start". If you say that can't see the reasons for the backlash, I would have to say that I don't believe you.

You may very well have a great product. It's a shame that it had to be launched this way. And that it had to divide members of the industry, rather than build with them.

All these points dub makes are on the mark. IMO, BB's could have made better attempts to work with others in the industry. They certainly could have done things that might have garnered them more good will than they have currently engendered. And, I think they totally missed the boat when it comes to controlling their own PR. BB had a PR tabula rasa -- IOW a blank slate. And with a plan, they could have created almost any kind of positive buzz they might have wanted. But, as we've all seen, there was no PR plan and the only publicity on BB is what you see here. That would be spelled: train wreck.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Black-Balled]

Seems to me I hope one day bonus ball has as many members as the BCA or APA, lets see if the league fails then, NO it won't, you know why?.....

Because if it is a success it cannot be a failure.

Logic error: a thing cannot be the opposite of itself.

 

[watchez]

My point is whatever you do in life if you're going up against 7/1 odds of getting your money back and making a profit it's not a good proposition. This is just the reality of going to Pro Pool Tournaments, and for 70% of the field their odds are MUCH lower.

I would play in EVERY pro tournament if there was ESPN or a Major TV station involved because then I could get sponsors and make money as a result of the exposure I would get on TV. These players don't even have that opportunity. The highest paid pool player makes less than 30k in endorsements from what I understand...and the average for the TOP 10 is probably less than 10k a year.

These are the things I've figured into my incentives to play and I always get a voice telling me "don't be silly, it's not worth it".....and the voice comes from my greatest adviser. 'The Game is the Adviser"

Here's a google result for the Last Place on the PGA TOUR:


How much money does the last place golfer on the pga tour make a year on average? Q:
In: Sports › Golf › PGA Tour
Rate This Answer
The bottom of the players who make the cut at the PGA Championship typically make somewhere around $7,500-$12,000.

- See more at: http://www.chacha.com/question/how-...r-make-a-year-on-average#sthash.w1FbHwAs.dpuf

And CJ, to only a minor degree, Jay outlined for those that don't remember (and I am sure that you do) how the Pro Pool Players screwed up that opportunity several times. There is much more to what Jay quickly detailed. And there are many more opportunities that were missed.

Pro Players need to quit blaming the promoters and take some time to look in the mirror.

I have a friend that plays on the Web.com tour (golf). He has made some noise but not won a tournament yet. He qualified with the big boys for the PGA event in Tampa this year but didn't make the cut after two rounds of play. He has sponsors. He made $57K last year in tournament winnings. He has to go to Chile, Brazil and all over the USA to play. And the one thing about him, compared to a pool player, is that he is very aware of his image. Even at his level. He plays on a tour that I run as well outside of real golf and I had a picture on my website of him holding a beer. Due to Google pushes that I have setup, if you Googled his name, it was the first picture that came up. When he saw this, he reached out to me and asked for the picture to be taken down. Why? Because he wasn't sure if that would effect his relationship with any present or future sponsors. What a novelty - a pro player thinking about more than just 5 minutes ahead in his life.