Pro Pool players courting disaster

[Johnnyt]

Another few reasons more of the top name pros are slow to enter IMO is because they don't have entry fee for one $500 tournament, much less money to enter a second tournament right on top of the first. Most of the pros that are not fully sponsored as usual need to wait for their backer to put them in. Being that most of the top pros are living in Vegas now and haven't been giving their local backer from around their home state any action, the backer has found another horse or has gone on to something else with his/her money. There are many reasons for the short player list for these two tournaments. I just hope it doesn't become the perfect storm. There is still 3 weeks so if 3 players sign up each day that will push the Ultimate 10 ball to well over 100 players. Johnnyt

 

[BryanB]

With only 39 entries, I would only have to win 1 match to get my money back

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

St. Louis Open PCA Event

This post is very much on point

It astonishes me how little most amateurs know or care about pro pool. A few months ago, the Swanee tournament occurred here in LA (Bellflower technically)- most of the league players that I'm friends with didn't want to go or were interested but didn't want to pay $15 to watch the best players in the world play. It's kind of a shame actually

Add in the factor of a new gimmicky game like Bonus Ball and I think the support will be even harder to drum up. I wish the opposite, but wishful thinking doesn't make for success alone

In August 1996 I hosted a PCA sanctioned event. The event was billed 1996 St. Louis Open, This 15k added out of my pocket was a tremendous success. The event attracted 84 players from the U.S. and several Phillipine players were in attendance.
We had a standing room only 4 day's in a row in St. Louis. A lot of fans were league players. Tickets were $ 20 per day. I did over $20 k at the door. I think the success had a lot to do with St. Louis central location.
I think a lot of proprietors are afraid to take the risk of saying Guaranteed Added, That in my opinion is why tournaments all over the U.S. are rarely adding more than $2k.
Another important consideration is your location, Will you draw the fan support to justify adding more money. Take St. Louis and go 5 hours in any direction and look at the Major cities in that circle.
So wishful thinking and doing your homework factors in the possibility of a successful event.
Just my 2 cents, Gary

 

[JCIN]

Seems to me all the people who are against this being a success. Work for burger king with a mcdonalds opening next door. Lets bash them since we work for another company etc etc etc....

Shows how sad and cheap the pool world actually is, someone tries to grow the game and is told instantly it will fail. Well when Tar started how many times was you told it wouldn't work.

Children need to grow up, and keep there spite to themselves. Cleary saying when it fails, so the apa when it was started was told it was going to fail and now look at how big a company it is and how much money it generates.

This is where the problem in pool is, the people who get rich off the amateur leagues have mega money to sustain a pro league and the sport. I hope one day bonus ball has as many members as the BCA or APA, lets see if the league fails then, NO it won't, you know why? because it will put the money back into the pro league and the pro players pockets and not pay for a new 30 bedroom mansion, private jet and boat that the owners of the leagues have.

So no wonder people want to see it fail, because the ones bashing it work for Burger King, when Mcdonalds has arrived and now they are worried it will affect or ruin their business.

It's about time someone done something about it and changed the game, if you think this wont work. I'll give you an example to ponder over. DARTS!!! do you know who the BDO is and how the players boycotted and formed the WDC now called the PDC.

Just like they was told it wouldn't succeed now look who has the last laugh, the BDO is now almost a dead organisation with the worst talent left, because the players wanted to be valued what they are worth.

So in 10 years time, who knows the events that are now, could be full of short stops and the pros only play on TV, where they belong. So keep bashing them and one day you might regret it, when they no longer want to play for anyone who knocked what they are doing, biting the nose off to spite the face comes to mind.....

Its amazing that for a guy who claims to know so much about pool you know so little.

I see all of these people who swear there is so much money in pool that other people are getting. If they are so smart how come they don't get some of that easy money?

News flash: ITS HARD TO MAKE MONEY IN POOL FOR EVERYONE!

I see it from all angles. Retail, manufacturer, streaming, event promotion, and player. No one is doing great. Its brutal for the whole industry. Thats why I am so skeptical when someone says "Oh dont worry how we will make this thing stepping on shit survive. Trust us."

Besides if this thing is so good a few people talking about it on the internet will have absolutely zero affect on anything. Its already been said that Bonus Ball doesnt really worry about traditional pool fans that they want to get new fans. So who gives a shit what people here say anyway?

 

[lfigueroa]

Seems to me all the people who are against this being a success. Work for burger king with a mcdonalds opening next door. Lets bash them since we work for another company etc etc etc....

Shows how sad and cheap the pool world actually is, someone tries to grow the game and is told instantly it will fail. Well when Tar started how many times was you told it wouldn't work.

Children need to grow up, and keep there spite to themselves. Cleary saying when it fails, so the apa when it was started was told it was going to fail and now look at how big a company it is and how much money it generates.

This is where the problem in pool is, the people who get rich off the amateur leagues have mega money to sustain a pro league and the sport. I hope one day bonus ball has as many members as the BCA or APA, lets see if the league fails then, NO it won't, you know why? because it will put the money back into the pro league and the pro players pockets and not pay for a new 30 bedroom mansion, private jet and boat that the owners of the leagues have.

So no wonder people want to see it fail, because the ones bashing it work for Burger King, when Mcdonalds has arrived and now they are worried it will affect or ruin their business.

It's about time someone done something about it and changed the game, if you think this wont work. I'll give you an example to ponder over. DARTS!!! do you know who the BDO is and how the players boycotted and formed the WDC now called the PDC.

Just like they was told it wouldn't succeed now look who has the last laugh, the BDO is now almost a dead organisation with the worst talent left, because the players wanted to be valued what they are worth.

So in 10 years time, who knows the events that are now, could be full of short stops and the pros only play on TV, where they belong. So keep bashing them and one day you might regret it, when they no longer want to play for anyone who knocked what they are doing, biting the nose off to spite the face comes to mind.....

I don't believe we will need 10 years to see how this turns out.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lets just say there is a lot of politics in pool, and more going on behind the scenes than people realize. Also last i knew America was a free country.

Players can choose to play where they wish, no one is stealing all the players. Nathan will release all the players held hostage to play their matches then chain them back up.

Your problem may be that when the players are released and unchained they may not be welcomed back to their previous watering holes.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Merchandise, ticket sales, and PPV subscriptions will be available this weekend when our new site launches. Fantasy leagues system comes the following week.

PS. PM Sent.

I believe that with all the good will BB has built up, as of late, you'll be selling these like hotcakes.

Lou Figueroa
or not

 

[brandoncook26]

Your problem may be that when the players are released and unchained they may not be welcomed back to their previous watering holes.

Lou Figueroa

I'm not so worried about them being welcomed back. I'm more worried about the watering holes drying up while they are gone. Greg and especially Mark don't need the professional player revenue to continue their business. Mark has said before that he breaks even or loses money on many of the pro tournaments he does. Much of why he does it is to have an additional thing to add to the experience of the amateurs, and to help grow the professional game.

If they decide it's not worth their time, we lose 6 huge events: Derby, Southern, Bar Table, and the 3 US Open events.

 

[JCIN]

Some of your questions are in poor taste and to expect an answer to them is as illogical as asking the questions in the first place but it's cool I understand exactly why you are asking them. If someone would be asking some of these questions to you about TAR for no real good reason I cannot see a response coming or a positive one anyway which is to be expected.

Explain to me smart guy why I am asking them?

Oh thats right I am so scared Bonus Ball is going to take over and put me out of business. Please. Do not flatter yourself. I survived Kevin Trudeau I'll survive Bonus Ball. Case in point while you guys are doing week two I will be doing SVB vs Orcollo. I like my end just fine.

Could it possibly be I am asking questions because I am sick and tired of fools coming into this industry, turning it upside down with a half ass plan and leaving a mess in their wake ? No. I am just scared to death of something no one has heard of with a financial model that is unsustainable.

The fact that NO ONE will explain how this thing is supposed to survive should be a giant red flag. I can do it for TAR in a paragraph. Anyone with a pen and a napkin can get a rough idea how it works and where the numbers fall. Same with damn near any business model out there. But this thing is just supposed to defy every historical trend in the industry. Okay. But don't be surprised when people who know how things really work call bullshit.

Besides if it wasnt for me asking these "poor taste" questions like does the producer get rewarded for failing you guys would have even less people who have ever heard the words Bonus Ball. I'm gonna start charging you guys for promotion.

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm not so worried about them being welcomed back. I'm more worried about the watering holes drying up while they are gone. Greg and especially Mark don't need the professional player revenue to continue their business. Mark has said before that he breaks even or loses money on many of the pro tournaments he does. Much of why he does it is to have an additional thing to add to the experience of the amateurs, and to help grow the professional game.

If they decide it's not worth their time, we lose 6 huge events: Derby, Southern, Bar Table, and the 3 US Open events.

You are correct, and for most of us it is not a worry.

Over the years, guys like Greg and Mark have set a new standard when it comes to pool tournaments -- they organize and run them professionally and in very nice settings. AND, they payoff as advertised. IOW, they have an established, proven track record and in the world of pool that is, most unfortunately, a rarity. Nonetheless, their hard work over the years deserves all of our respect and continued support.

Now, the new guy on the block has shown up with no track record, big promises, but no explanations. And soon, I believe, many folks are going to have make some choices about who and what they will support. Me, I know which way Im going.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Baxter]

I have no dog in this fight, but I think the nail in the coffin for BB is that you need a special set of balls to play it. No one is going to care about a game that they can't play, and no one is going to go out and fork over a couple hundred bucks for some orange and purple balls. Maybe if they used a standard set of balls like every other pool game in America, people could play it and grow to like it, then support it. I just don't see that happening with the specialized ball set.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Oh !

I have no dog in this fight, but I think the nail in the coffin for BB is that you need a special set of balls to play it. No one is going to care about a game that they can't play, and no one is going to go out and fork over a couple hundred bucks for some orange and purple balls. Maybe if they used a standard set of balls like every other pool game in America, people could play it and grow to like it, then support it. I just don't see that happening with the specialized ball set.

Are the colored ones worth more ?

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Only Lou ......

Your problem may be that when the players are released and unchained they may not be welcomed back to their previous watering holes.

Lou Figueroa

Waterhole's, Lou, you really are a piece of work, You talk like people that aren't as successful as you are not worthy. Guess what Lou, You are very small...........

 

[TheMadScientist]

I have no dog in this fight, but I think the nail in the coffin for BB is that you need a special set of balls to play it. No one is going to care about a game that they can't play, and no one is going to go out and fork over a couple hundred bucks for some orange and purple balls. Maybe if they used a standard set of balls like every other pool game in America, people could play it and grow to like it, then support it. I just don't see that happening with the specialized ball set.

It can be played with normal balls too...

 

[Baxter]

It can be played with normal balls too...

Then why aren't they playing the game with normal balls?

 

[TheMadScientist]

Why do Valley bar tables use mud balls? Because they want to?

I'm just telling you that the game can be played with solids and stripes, as long as it's not a locked up coin op table.

 

[peteypooldude]

You are correct, and for most of us it is not a worry.

Over the years, guys like Greg and Mark have set a new standard when it comes to pool tournaments -- they organize and run them professionally and in very nice settings. AND, they payoff as advertised. IOW, they have an established, proven track record and in the world of pool that is, most unfortunately, a rarity. Nonetheless, their hard work over the years deserves all of our respect and continued support.

Now, the new guy on the block has shown up with no track record, big promises, but no explanations. And soon, I believe, many folks are going to have make some choices about who and what they will support. Me, I know which way Im going.

Lou Figueroa

Why would me or you be choosing sides. We can support both with no conflict at all

 

[Fast Lenny]

Explain to me smart guy why I am asking them?

To be honest I do not know why you are asking the questions at all, it is none of your business. Just like how many PPVs you sell or how much your rent is there are none of mine. You can wait and see like everyone else and if it works great, if it does not at least something new was tried. Has Bonus Ball disrupted things because I do not see it, we will have to see how it affects the other events. Like I said promoters should contact Bonus Ball if they are concerned and ask for the schedule and the players that are available then contact those players to play in the event. It would cost thousands to shut down for a week at the studio so working with others would cost Bonus Ball and no one else which is not a smart move. Bonus Ball has worked with other organizations by giving players the choice to play or not so the top players will attend the events so I am not sure why people are pulling there hair out crying about disruptions that have yet to really occur.

Oh thats right I am so scared Bonus Ball is going to take over and put me out of business. Please. Do not flatter yourself. I survived Kevin Trudeau I'll survive Bonus Ball. Case in point while you guys are doing week two I will be doing SVB vs Orcollo. I like my end just fine.

Bonus Ball is not going to put anyone out of business but I do hope it is successful for the pro players to make a living and have choices other then the only game in town. TAR is totally separate from what Bonus Ball is and has its own market which is cool so I do not think that at all actually so your assumptions are wrong. Speaking of Kevin Trudeau, ask the players what they think of him, I bet the positive responses outdo the negative ones.

Could it possibly be I am asking questions because I am sick and tired of fools coming into this industry, turning it upside down with a half ass plan and leaving a mess in their wake ? No. I am just scared to death of something no one has heard of with a financial model that is unsustainable.


The players will have more money in their pockets because of Bonus Ball plain and simple so the only people complaining are promoters or people associated with them that are worried about attendance by pro players which I think attendance will be just fine if not better because of Bonus Ball so its a much to do about nothing. I think the industry is fine, lots of amateurs playing and leagues making money along with product being sold, the real problem is with pro pool and players not being able to make a living which Bonus Ball is trying to help fix.

The fact that NO ONE will explain how this thing is supposed to survive should be a giant red flag. I can do it for TAR in a paragraph. Anyone with a pen and a napkin can get a rough idea how it works and where the numbers fall. Same with damn near any business model out there. But this thing is just supposed to defy every historical trend in the industry. Okay. But don't be surprised when people who know how things really work call bullshit.

The whole thing is different which is why it has a shot, call us crazy and take your potshots which is fine but I call people crazy who expect to do the same thing over and over again and expect the results will be different. It is okay to have an opinion and state it but its always the same people counting it out before it even has begun. You assume PPV, hats, jerseys and gate is the business model which we all know and its real obvious that will not support it but things going on behind the scenes are not your business and if it works then it will be successful.

Besides if it wasnt for me asking these "poor taste" questions like does the producer get rewarded for failing you guys would have even less people who have ever heard the words Bonus Ball. I'm gonna start charging you guys for promotion.

Your post are not positive speaking about failing and what people get out of it if it goes under, but one thing is for sure if it fails I would not say the video producer is responsible for that. The product might be the most superior out there, Nathan is probably one of the most talented and hard working people I have met in the industry. If it does fail then lessons will be learned and maybe the promoters out there can get together and on the same page themselves to provide a pro tour for players that can support them instead of staying in the comfort zone. You can thank Larry for bringing the players to Vegas and saving you thousands in expenses for those players if you do a TAR match with any of them.

I was sent a message that the person did not understand why people are undermining a new entity investing in pool. I do not get it either but it certainly is very telling at the same time. I have nothing against you personally Justin, we are just on different sides of the track here is all. I do appreciate you having put money in the players pockets who have played on TAR. Good luck in your events, I will be watching, betting and enjoying them. I cannot partake in this thread for some time as I have to hit the road but it was somewhat sadly interesting.

 

[Majic]

This post is very much on point

It astonishes me how little most amateurs know or care about pro pool. A few months ago, the Swanee tournament occurred here in LA (Bellflower technically)- most of the league players that I'm friends with didn't want to go or were interested but didn't want to pay $15 to watch the best players in the world play. It's kind of a shame actually

Add in the factor of a new gimmicky game like Bonus Ball and I think the support will be even harder to drum up. I wish the opposite, but wishful thinking doesn't make for success alone

I agree. Most amateurs don't know the names of any pro players or care to know, and forget about them supporting a pro tour. And BB is only known to a very small audience. The only people in my circle that know of BB visit AZB and what percent of the pool world actually visits here.

 

[1on1pooltournys]

I agree. Most amateurs don't know the names of any pro players or care to know, and forget about them supporting a pro tour. And BB is only known to a very small audience. The only people in my circle that know of BB visit AZB and what percent of the pool world actually visits here.

Yes sad most amateurs think pool consists 1 or 2 nights a week on a 7 foot pool table. The industry can blame itself for that.