Pro Pool players courting disaster

[CJ Wiley]

TV money is there, it's just allocated to everything BUT the future of the Game.

My point CJ is, Greg Sullivan ran DCC for years while not making anything. Yes, he does well on it now.

For that reason, he has my respect and gratitude.

You say its not nearly as difficult as some would lead you to believe, but I have only seen Greg do it and do it well.

The US Open? nope.

Ken

I know this business from the inside, I ran many tournaments at CJ's, and did a few for the PCA as well with ESPN and Jay Helfert in LA. We never tried to make money, our incentive was to do the TV Presentation and make money of residual income. I generated millions as a result of my participation, not just for myself, but for MANY other people and businesses. 50 Million total in pool related businesses (that's public record).

My point is the prize fund is just a small portion of what's available when you are getting TV involved to get to the mainstream public. As a result of the TV Shows we did in the 90s pool related businesses and ESPN made tens of millions of dollars......this is next to nothing now.

If 500 people go to a pool tournament (players and fans), and average spending $1500 apiece that's $750,000 and the tournament pays back $300,000 that's a Negative $450,000 Net loss to the pool players and fans. The promoter, hotel/casino, airlines, gas stations/restaurants split up the $450,000 in one way, shape or form.

In this scenario everyone wins except 70% of the Pro Players because the prize money only pays 30% of the players (at best). I'm figuring in some spectators on the "500 people scenario" to just make a point that the TV money is there, it's just allocated to everything BUT the future of the Game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

money went into the prize funds directly AND was used to do 6-8 TV tournaments a year

Either way it was a gold rush that favored the top

1

No, the sponsorship money and the ESPN money went into the prize funds directly AND was used to do 6-8 TV tournaments a year.

The Game of Pool was the winner, and of course the players all made money too. And outside the tournaments the players made FAR MORE than the prize money when you consider all residual revenue.

 

[jay helfert]

Hi Nathan,

I would have responded earlier but I was at a beautiful wedding in California. John Bertone and his lovely (now) wife Elisa invited Sunny and I and we had a grand time. First time ever to Catalina.

I have read some of the responses to your post and many comments were made. Since your response was addressed to me, I felt it appropriate that I respond.

First of all; I agree the schedule is not perfect for me - OR THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY.

Courtesy: Goes a long ways and it is hard to put a value on it. But I really feel it would be better for the industry (and all of us in it) if there was better communication.

$$$$- You are right, $13,000 is not much when compared to $1M. But don't you think it would have been money well spent if you could have caused the industry to all pull in the same direction? Wouldn't you feel better if you could look the players in the eye and KNOW you could be helping them - WITHOUT making them choose between BB and existing events?

This would mean something to me. I would think it would also mean something to you and BB. I am sure it would mean something to the players (and sponsors).

Nobody is asking you to forfeit $13,000 - we are suggesting you to consider the plight of the players. These conflicting schedules have put the players right in the middle. It is not a place where they belong.

So - here is a solution: Since you stated the 'cost' of this 'courtesy' is $13,000 in potential lost rent revenue.

I WILL PAY THE $13,000

You would agree to eliminate the BB play from June 20 - 29, and from July 17- 27th. This would allow all the players the option of playing in these events without any risk of conflict with the WPBL. This would eliminate conflicts with the Ultimate 10-Ball, Southern Classic, and the US Open events held in July.


I hope you think this is a fair compromise. I just want the industry to be in a win-win situation. This will allow the players the option of being able to play where they want without being penalized. This is a win-win for the industry!

If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to get in touch with me. I know $13,000 is a lot of money. - but it is the right thing to do. I think it would be money well spent.

(As a disclaimer, this offer will not stand indefinitely).

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

Now that's what I call STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE! Bravo Mark! :bow-down:

 

[one stroke]

No, the sponsorship money and the ESPN money went into the prize funds directly AND was used to do 6-8 TV tournaments a year.

The Game of Pool was the winner, and of course the players all made money too. And outside the tournaments the players made FAR MORE than the prize money when you consider all residual revenue.

Your missing the point the money was more available for those ventures ESPN since then have locked up big contracts in other ventures that they now have a strong hold on
Less money available for secondary ventures


1

 

[watchez]

I know this business from the inside, I ran many tournaments at CJ's, and did a few for the PCA as well with ESPN and Jay Helfert in LA. We never tried to make money, our incentive was to do the TV Presentation and make money of residual income. I generated millions as a result of my participation, not just for myself, but for MANY other people and businesses. 50 Million total in pool related businesses (that's public record).

My point is the prize fund is just a small portion of what's available when you are getting TV involved to get to the mainstream public. As a result of the TV Shows we did in the 90s pool related businesses and ESPN made tens of millions of dollars......this is next to nothing now.

If 500 people go to a pool tournament (players and fans), and average spending $1500 apiece that's $750,000 and the tournament pays back $300,000 that's a Negative $450,000 Net loss to the pool players and fans. The promoter, hotel/casino, airlines, gas stations/restaurants split up the $450,000 in one way, shape or form.

In this scenario everyone wins except 70% of the Pro Players because the prize money only pays 30% of the players (at best). I'm figuring in some spectators on the "500 people scenario" to just make a point that the TV money is there, it's just allocated to everything BUT the future of the Game.

Yes CJ and I spend $100 a week in gas going to my job, $300 a month to have a car to get to work that keeps depreciating because I put on 350 miles a week going to work, pay insurance of another $100 a month for this car - and then the government taxes me 38% of what I make. To top it off, the stress at my job is one of the factors I have had two heart attacks. Guess I should quit and just stay home.

 

[lukemindish]

Hi Nathan,

I would have responded earlier but I was at a beautiful wedding in California. John Bertone and his lovely (now) wife Elisa invited Sunny and I and we had a grand time. First time ever to Catalina.

I have read some of the responses to your post and many comments were made. Since your response was addressed to me, I felt it appropriate that I respond.

First of all; I agree the schedule is not perfect for me - OR THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY.

Courtesy: Goes a long ways and it is hard to put a value on it. But I really feel it would be better for the industry (and all of us in it) if there was better communication.

$$$$- You are right, $13,000 is not much when compared to $1M. But don't you think it would have been money well spent if you could have caused the industry to all pull in the same direction? Wouldn't you feel better if you could look the players in the eye and KNOW you could be helping them - WITHOUT making them choose between BB and existing events?

This would mean something to me. I would think it would also mean something to you and BB. I am sure it would mean something to the players (and sponsors).

Nobody is asking you to forfeit $13,000 - we are suggesting you to consider the plight of the players. These conflicting schedules have put the players right in the middle. It is not a place where they belong.

So - here is a solution: Since you stated the 'cost' of this 'courtesy' is $13,000 in potential lost rent revenue.

I WILL PAY THE $13,000

You would agree to eliminate the BB play from June 20 - 29, and from July 17- 27th. This would allow all the players the option of playing in these events without any risk of conflict with the WPBL. This would eliminate conflicts with the Ultimate 10-Ball, Southern Classic, and the US Open events held in July.


I hope you think this is a fair compromise. I just want the industry to be in a win-win situation. This will allow the players the option of being able to play where they want without being penalized. This is a win-win for the industry!

If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to get in touch with me. I know $13,000 is a lot of money. - but it is the right thing to do. I think it would be money well spent.

(As a disclaimer, this offer will not stand indefinitely).

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

Talk about stepping up to the plate! Talk about working together for pool! Mark that is one hell of a move. I hope this works because this would be the right thing for everyone involved. Sadly i doubt BB will take you up on this offer, even though it is without a doubt the right thing to do.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Not sure about everyone else, But I would prefer to keep this thread about the original topic.

I am sure there is value in talking about ESPN from previous years - but I am trying to keep this thread on point and 'maybe' come up with a solution for the next 2-3 months.

Thank you - please humor an old guy - OK????

Mark Griffin

 

[CJ Wiley]

My point was addressing how Pool Tournaments generate money and for whom.

Yes CJ and I spend $100 a week in gas going to my job, $300 a month to have a car to get to work that keeps depreciating because I put on 350 miles a week going to work, pay insurance of another $100 a month for this car - and then the government taxes me 38% of what I make. To top it off, the stress at my job is one of the factors I have had two heart attacks. Guess I should quit and just stay home.

Yes, of course you should quit and just stay home and start playing Pro Pool Tournaments.

That would be silly of course, the move is to play Bonus Ball and make consistent money....we all have expenses no matter what.

My point was addressing how Pool Tournaments generate money and for whom. The Airlines, Hotels, Casinos, Promoters, Restaurants, and Gas Stations are all winners.....it's the Pro Pool Players that are the only losers.

This just seems odd to me that's all. With Bonus Ball at least there a clear profit for the players and they make more than the gas stations and restaurants.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Thanks CJ. Possibly you weren't aware that the matches Accu-Stats records are televised, all over Asia! I have been in the Philippines and sat in my hotel room and watched many of these matches on TV there. They've even shown One Pocket and Banks, and full length matches. I've been told these same matches air on other networks in many other Asian countries, plus Australia and other places. I suspect the audience is far greater than ever achieved on ESPN. I know that shows I've worked on in Manila have had audience ratings well into the millions. So don't think for a minute that the key matches of this tournament are not televised, because they are!

I don't understand! Millions of viewers! Why is NO ONE taking this data to advertising executives? I am certain that with a contract between accu-stats and solar sports in hand and solar sports viewer data BIG fortune 500 sponsors could sign on!!! The TV guys want advertisers and the advertising executives want viewers! Advertising executives pay big money for a million plus viewers! That big money can be used toward your PRIZE fund!

It sounds like solar sports has a desire for more pool??? In order to fulfill demand accu stats needs more PROMOTORS and events to broadcast! If accu-stats is sitting on this data? I would have to consider it almost CRIMINAL to prevent the INDUSTRY from actively seeking TITLE sponsors with it! The UPA/ ABP or what ever they are called now needs this!

Accu-stats exclusively handles the production side. They may need to consider doing both production and promotion while partnering up with someone who will cold call and shop major advertising agencies for sponsorship dollars to fund these events and get their products a million plus views!

Any advertising executives on azb that can estimate what a million plus viewers is worth on the advertising market????

Kd


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[one stroke]

Ok back to topic. No the pool players have every right to seek what's best for them tourneys offer no loyalties or securities. A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush

1

 

[tatcat2000]

You made it clear in an earlier post that we "can't agree on anything" when I offered to help you with your referee issues..."

To be accurate and clear, the "issues" were yours, not Mark's.

Buddy

 

[Mark Griffin]

Yea!!!

Back on topic.

How about a solutioon that will allow the players to choose where they play without a date conflict! Now they are not 'in the middle'.

Please see Post #473.

Mark Griffin

Ok back to topic. No the pool players have every right to seek what's best for them tourneys offer no loyalties or securities. A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's no "hidden agendas" I thought it would be a fun challenge

To be accurate and clear, the issues were yours, not Mark's.

Buddy

That's not true at all. I offered to manage the referees to prove it could be done. There's no "hidden agendas" I thought it would be a fun challenge. I could get a LOT of volunteers to help, I already had "tested the water".

I have not other purpose than to make things better, I already "real eyesed" there's not much upside right now until TV is introduced back into the equation. I have other reasons to be in Las Vegas that I was going to "package together" with that proposition.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Just call up Larry and talk to him, he's a reasonable guy, or talk to Johnny Archer

Yea!!!

Back on topic.

How about a solutioon that will allow the players to choose where they play without a date conflict! Now they are not 'in the middle'.

Please see Post #473.

Mark Griffin

Just call up Larry and talk to him, he's a reasonable guy, or talk to Johnny Archer, I'm sure he would be a great liaison between you and Larry. I'm pretty sure Larry doesn't even read this Forum.

I think you can hit the Bonus Ball building with a 3 Wood from the TAR building, just set up a meeting and "Get -R- Done". :thumbup:

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

I do know what expenses are .

Gary,

Too often the players and critics say things like this. After the fees, it is ONLY a $3k added event! As Jay and others have pointed out, show me a small event that has a better answer. It is not poker or similar.

The venue has to give up their tables for 2-4 days, and still provide most of the services. A good room operator can make it work - but if it is a regional tour, there are expenses to overcome. Look at these things as a user fee. I think you are bein naive if you think these expenses do not have to be convered by the people using the premises.

I love your passion and participation. But things are expensive these days and if the tournaments don'e pay their way, they will cease to exist. And it is not usually greed - it is expenses.

Sponsors contributing pool items is OK - but it never works out like it does on paper.And paying the director from another source - not from entry fees is just meaning the added money will be $4,500 instead of $5,000. The expense does not go away.

Charging a small door charge usually is a bad idea. You have to pay someone to be an a**hole at the door and piss off people and make very little money (if any). And it removes most of the goodwill the event was supposed to create.

Mark Griffin

Mark, When John McChesney , Robin Adair, and Randy Goetlicher started the Texas Express Tournament in the late 1980's. There were events anywhere from $1k Added to $6500k Added. Shooters in Olathe and Star-Lite Café & Billiards added $ 6500 three times a year. This did not include monthly tournaments and weekly tournaments with Guaranteed $. And when I advertised the flyer said GUARANTEED. This is rare anymore.
I hosted all of the Missouri 8 Ball team events, All of the Bud Lite team events, All of the Miller Lite team events also. I paid the league operators $2k to $3k per large event.
Some of these were team events and some were the league singles championships.
I agreed to add this money not only to secure the event, But promote pool, Which I felt came back to me many times over.
Of course I wanted to make a profit, And I can say most of the time I did. I looked at the big picture where as this benefited me in the long term with increased business.
I had Star-Lite Café and Billiards From 1986-1996, And we were a small operation that only had 18 bar tables and 10 Gold Crowns, A small kitchen with great food and a full bar.
Like i said we were a small operation that was open 7 days a week, 24 hours a day if we were busy. We stayed open 24-7 from The Thursday when players started arriving until Monday or when the players left. This was only about 800k per year business. I sold it after 10 years. It went out of business 9 months later.
During this time in1996 i opened Sharky's Restaurant Sports Bar and Billiards in Collinsville Ill. About 10 miles from downtown St. Louis. We were open 7 days a week, 10am until 1:30 am. We had 10 Gold Crowns and 10 barboxes. In August 1996 i hosted The St. Louis Open, A PCA Event. I added 15k out of my pocket to the event.
In order to make room i had to take out 14 of my table. I moved 6 Gold Crowns down the middle of the room.
I surrounded 4 sides with bleachers i owned, The same bleachers i bought from Dan Tull many years before that. The same bleachers that were set up and always full at the previous billiard room i owned. By the way i owned both of these billiard rooms at the same time until i sold the 1 in Missouri. Sharky's was a full service Restaurant, Night Club , And a elevated bar in the middle of the room. A complete wall separating the billiard room and the Restaurant, Live Music side. We had the same bands the casino's in St. Louis has.
So what i am saying i know a little about promoting business, Live Music, Billiards , Sports bar, Restaurant. Hiring and training employees, Food and liquor ordering, Doing payroll, Hiring Entertainment. promoting pool. Marketing Etc..........................
This was also a small operation , Average 1.2 mil a year.
So if anyone thinks i don't have a clue i challenge that. And for anyone that does dispute what i have written. Just do your research.
I do understand how hard it is to make a profit, But like i said , 25 plus years i do know a wee bit.
With that being said i hope that all of the big guns can get together and try to work together, Bonus Ball guys, i hope you read this, Mark has made a pretty stout offer.
Sincerely,
Gary Lutman

 

[jay helfert]

Just call up Larry and talk to him, he's a reasonable guy, or talk to Johnny Archer, I'm sure he would be a great liaison between you and Larry. I'm pretty sure Larry doesn't even read this Forum.

I think you can hit the Bonus Ball building with a 3 Wood from the TAR building, just set up a meeting and "Get -R- Done". :thumbup:

Nathan reads this so quit putting it all on Mark! Why don't you tell them to call him? Mark is the one extending the Olive Branch! LIFE IS THE TEACHER CJ.

 

[jay helfert]

I don't understand! Millions of viewers! Why is NO ONE taking this data to advertising executives? I am certain that with a contract between accu-stats and solar sports in hand and solar sports viewer data BIG fortune 500 sponsors could sign on!!! The TV guys want advertisers and the advertising executives want viewers! Advertising executives pay big money for a million plus viewers! That big money can be used toward your PRIZE fund!

It sounds like solar sports has a desire for more pool??? In order to fulfill demand accu stats needs more PROMOTORS and events to broadcast! If accu-stats is sitting on this data? I would have to consider it almost CRIMINAL to prevent the INDUSTRY from actively seeking TITLE sponsors with it! The UPA/ ABP or what ever they are called now needs this!

Accu-stats exclusively handles the production side. They may need to consider doing both production and promotion while partnering up with someone who will cold call and shop major advertising agencies for sponsorship dollars to fund these events and get their products a million plus views!

Any advertising executives on azb that can estimate what a million plus viewers is worth on the advertising market????

Kd


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

In a nutshell, the way it works is this. Solar buys the programming rights to the Philippine market from Accu-Stats. They put the shows on the air and find the advertisers who buy the air time to recoup their costs and hopefully make a profit. That's kind of how the TV business works in a cliff's notes version.

Now when they televise an event that is in the Philippines, they must pay all the production costs incurred with the "shoot." That can be some fairly hefty money. They must once again find a way to recoup their investment from advertisers.

In China there appears to be larger audiences, thus more advertising dollars which translates into bigger prize funds for the players. The recent China Open paid out $300,000!

 

[Luxury]

Wow. I was about to post how I was practicing bonus ball for my bb viewing party this thurs and how much it's like one pocket and then I see Mark's $13,000 offer. Nice!

I'm a Bcapl team captain and I want to support Mark as well. I remember reading bb wanted to make sure they were on every week. Maybe a bb highlight reel they could air during the weeks Mark is requesting? I'm sure Nathan would have a ball editing that.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It seems like the stars are starting to align.

Nathan reads this so quit putting it all on Mark! Why don't you tell them to call him? Mark is the one extending the Olive Branch! LIFE IS THE TEACHER CJ.

Noah was excited to see the "olive branch" but I doubt if the BB Leaders will be.

There's little chance they will - taking this offer would drastically weaken their position, and take them out of deeply leveraged position. The players need to stick together or they will never be taken seriously again. We think they're finally on the right track, things will have to get worse, before they will get better, when life is the teacher.

This is going to get very interesting in the next few weeks, I'm strangely optimistic about the immediate future of pool. It seems like the "stars are starting to align."

Maybe that 13k can be used to Televise the tournament, in that case new players would come out of the woodwork to compete. I have no "dog in the race," I'm not playing Bonus Ball and I won't play the Vegas tournament unless it's televised. I have only one personal agenda and that's to see the GAME get back in the public's eye and it's not going to happen unless Bonus Ball makes a statement asap. imho

"Leverage is the Teacher'

 

[lee brett]

Mark is offering to pay 13k, so what about my wages i will now not get for these weeks off work, and the other staff.. Are you going to pay this as well????

Or is that OK as long as you get what you want, there is more to this than meets the eye . And at the end of the day the players then still have a lot of expenses with so little making a profit.