Professional Pool Player Behavior - Is it Time to Solve the Problem or Not?

[CJ Wiley]

If there's any change I could make I would, it makes no difference to me,

CJ

I would like to read your posts, but having to continuosly scroll right and left is too much. None of the other posts are like this, so I assume it is something unique to you. Can you do anything about this to make it easier on all of us?

I'm sorry about that, but I'm not doing anything unusual. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be happy to make any adjustments if possible. I would think this is the same for everyone.

If there's any change I could make I would, it makes no difference to me,

 

[CJ Wiley]

you shouldn't have fellow players influencing disciplinary measures,

The only area I have difficulty with is the Committee Members. I would encourage having a format much like the old BCA utilized. If you have member/sponsors who have a vested interest in the independence and success of the operation, it would be a good idea to build a Rules Committee with one player and one WPBL Officer. This way players cannot overrule good judgement when it comes to discipline.

Just my two cents.

P.S. I saw Robin Adair posted mentioning the McDermott Texas Express rules of conduct. John McChesney, Randy Goettlicher, and Robin are an excellent example of knowledge and fairness when monitoring events. I'd consider tapping that Brain Trust for my organization.

cajunfats

Yes, that's a legal issue, you shouldn't have fellow players influencing disciplinary measures, it must be done by the owners/operators/managers.

And I agree mr cajunfats, I've worked a great deal with Robin, Randy and of course John McChesney was the main partner in my first pool room. The Texas Express McDermott Tournaments were very well run from what I can remember.

 

[cajunfats]

Comparison

I don't think the players are really of that opinion. Most athletes have agents, and managers that take care of virtually all their obligations so they can concentrate on their training and what they do best.

Most people will say the "don't want to be managed" however, this is secretly what many people need in their lives.....great management. Money management, Social management, Physical Fitness Management, Diet Management, Time Management. etc....very few people will honestly say they don't want or need management in their lives and if they do it's obvious they're unorganized.

When I said we need PR Groups, Marketing Groups, and Advertising Experts, not pool players or "backers" trying to fill these roles.

While I do not disagree with the need for players to be managed, I believe pool is not prepared for it at this time. That stubborn independent streak along with the gambling/hustling lifestyle are hard to break.

When I mentioned experts in PR/Marketing,that wasn't aimed at stakehorses or players. I have spent the last 6 years tutoring someone in Marketing and Public Relations. They are now using their Mass Comm. Degree/Marketing&P.R. Media at Boyd Gaming in the Marketing and Promotions Department.

These are the types of young people we need to attract to pool.

You are on track with this thread. I'd like to see a new Professional Organization that builds from the ground up. Bonus Ball is not that Organization.

cajunfats

 

[3kushn]

I'm sorry about that, but I'm not doing anything unusual. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be happy to make any adjustments if possible. I would think this is the same for everyone.

If there's any change I could make I would, it makes no difference to me,

IMO it's the new Site Design. Quirky/inconsistent with font and format.

 

[JoeyA]

CJ, the problem, professional pool player behavior, you speak about has been around for a long time.

The particular problem you and others mentioned happened on BONUS BALL and that makes it their problem, IF they consider it a problem.

Code of Conduct has been written. In fact, a friend and me wrote one for pool in general. It sat as a "Sticky" until a couple of posters cried and wailed that they didn't like seeing it there, making negative comments about the Code of Conduct and it's lack of value. The forum moderators eventually knuckled under to the wailing and removed it. This forum isn't the best medium to to get support in resurrecting or creating a new Code of Conduct.

The fact is that the Code of Conduct that we created was a guide to professional behavior. I didn't expect it to turn pool players, professional or amateur from rogues to gentleman anymore than I expect posting in poor taste to be eliminated from the forums. I did hope that perhaps those who were coming up in the ranks might occasionally read it and decide that the Code of Conduct could be a reference for them to use voluntarily.

The truth is our Code of Conduct had no teeth. The truth is that there are so many different INDEPENDENT promoters and they are listening to a different drummer. They do not have the same interests and sometimes bad behavior is condoned and even reveled in.

Until professional pool offers the professional player a way to make a decent living, nothing will change. The reward must be great enough to fear the punishment.

You know the idiom of the carrot and the stick of reward and punishment. It applies to today's state of affair in professional pool. Unfortunately, the reward (the carrot) isn't great enough for the players and if that isn't bad enough, the stick (the punishment) has about as much backbone as a wet noodle.

 

[cajunfats]

Don't Mess With Texas,lol!

Yes, that's a legal issue, you shouldn't have fellow players influencing disciplinary measures, it must be done by the owners/operators/managers.

And I agree mr cajunfats, I've worked a great deal with Robin, Randy and of course John McChesney was the main partner in my first pool room. The Texas Express McDermott Tournaments were very well run from what I can remember.

Gotta respect those Texas boys, Fair and Square!

Btw, C.J., you can call me Carl. That Mr. cajunfats only applies to noobs,lol. You and I spoke briefly a few years ago at White Diamonds. I gave you the phone number to my friend in Ft. Worth when you were discussing a new venture.

The next time you go to Chris Trulin's house, ask him about his old buddy Carl.

Then ask him if I know anything about pool. lmao!!!!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Effective management is done on a daily basis, not just "every once in a while"

While I do not disagree with the need for players to be managed, I believe pool is not prepared for it at this time. That stubborn independent streak along with the gambling/hustling lifestyle are hard to break.

When I mentioned experts in PR/Marketing,that wasn't aimed at stakehorses or players. I have spent the last 6 years tutoring someone in Marketing and Public Relations. They are now using their Mass Comm. Degree/Marketing&P.R. Media at Boyd Gaming in the Marketing and Promotions Department.

These are the types of young people we need to attract to pool.

You are on track with this thread. I'd like to see a new Professional Organization that builds from the ground up. Bonus Ball is not that Organization.

cajunfats

I think you may be under rating modern day managers. Everyone can be managed, and this is happening with virtually all professional athletes, again, I don't believe pool is the exception to needing and being receptive to management.

For some reason we are led to believe that pool is the exception and pool players are the exception for many things that seem far fetched. Kevin was the closest thing we've had to a true professional marketer and promoter.

There are many people at Kevin's level or above that would not think it difficult to manage a staff of a thousand players, and 32's probably enough. They would do it in a way that required contracts, player agreements and all the Code of Conduct and Policies and Procedures would not be simply signed and forgot about, they would be utilized on a regular basis in meetings.

Effective management is done on a daily basis, not just "every once in a while".

 

[Cuetastic]

Sad State of Affairs

I'll make this as brief as possible....as it deserves nothing more.

This video of Stickland and Jones arguing....is nothing more than how "professional pool" has repeated it's self, time and time again. An embarrassment. A carnival....to say the least.

There are simple solutions to this type of behavior, yet, no tournament/league organizer...over the the last 25 years...has been authoritative enough to take action.

While, those of you reading this post may see it or not, behavior like this in "pool" only hurts the longevity of the sport.

In other sports, players are fined for this type of behavior, or often suspended. Bonus Ball is supposed to be a TEAM SPORT, right? Puuuulease....Bonus Ball is making a joke out of this.

Until a league steps up and enforces a code of conduct for the players, this type of behavior will continue till the end of time. It's inevitable.

Do pool a favor..............Establish professionalism from the VERY BEGINNING...not after the live stream is broken. Enforce a code of conduct. Maintain the integrity of the game. Penalize "Poor Behavior" like it should be penalized.

Until that is done, history will repeat it's self.

As Always --- Pro Pool is Broken....Bonus Ball is, too.

 

[Nostroke]

Thanks Lyn --




I count everything - from Charlie Williams being on his cell phone while his opponent is shooting to players dumping matches either because their buddy bet against them or dumping so their friend could get Mosconi Cup points to qualify. Dumping to me in all forms - tournaments and gambling - is what needs to be cleaned up in pool first. THen let's see if we worry about Earl not taking his medicine.

Ok by those standards, the percentages are a little different. I never saw CW on a phone but i sure can picture that. But really i've seen hundreds and hundreds of pro matches and ive never seen anyone on a phone. I heard a ring or two a couple of time but that's it.

I know the Mosconi alleged dumping is a Pet Peeve of yours but how many matches even took place that would have a known effect on the Mosconi points? 3? If they were all dumped and i believe that should earn a lifetime ban for anyone who may have done it once, it still has less impact on pool than Earl's antics event after event, year after year due to the visibility factor

I know pool is a small community and you could very well know for a fact that the matches were dumped. Do you know this for a fact?

 

[cajunfats]

I think you may be under rating modern day managers. Everyone can be managed, and this is happening with virtually all professional athletes, again, I don't believe pool is the exception to needing and being receptive to management.

For some reason we are led to believe that pool is the exception and pool players are the exception for many things that seem far fetched. Kevin was the closest thing we've had to a true professional marketer and promoter.

There are many people at Kevin's level or above that would not think it difficult to manage a staff of a thousand players, and 32's probably enough. They would do it in a way that required contracts, player agreements and all the Code of Conduct and Policies and Procedures would not be simply signed and forgot about, they would be utilized on a regular basis in meetings.

Effective management is done on a daily basis, not just "every once in a while".

Centralized Management for a sports entity like pool is completely unrealistic. Restaurant Management, Manufacturing, or even Wall Street Brokers are layered so that better productivity is achieved. Trudeau couldn't manage the pros with all his money and expertise.

I have a nephew who was the Sports Agent for Ron Guidry of the New York Yankees. Chatting with him one day about pool and how the players could actually develop a sustainable organization, he told me,"Carl, the player has to develop a business attitude to their talent. Their responsibility doesn't end on the Pitcher's Mound, or in the dressing room. Everything they do in the public eye becomes news. Good or Bad. They have to consider a future after baseball. It is my job to put the pieces together, so he can perform without any mental baggage to hinder his performance."

The best agents have a stable of athletes, from a variety of disciplines. Even the Actors in Hollywood have managers/pr ppl so the Screen Actors Guild can focus on their work.

I just don't see a singular management entity that will benefit the players. Maybe I am jaded after all these years.

Carl

 

[SmoothStroke]

The respectful pool player, human being

Sometimes you are the code of conduct.
Write all the rules you want but sometimes you have to take the law into your own hands.
Scenario:
I am a regular playing in a tourney. Along comes this champion and begins to play on a weekly basis ( I never played him until this night)
I win the toss,,,,break,, run out to the 9 ball....HE SHARKS ME .. I make the ball.
I break again...Run out to the 8 ball....HE SHARKS ME AGAIN.. I run out
As he is racking the 3rd rack I walk over to him....sort of lean in and quietly say..I don't know you and you don't know me,, let me give you some advice.
If you shark me again I will knock every tooth out of your mouth with the butt of my cue. I take 2 or 3 steps back and wait for a reaction. I knew he had no balls or I never would have been that close to him.
He looks at me and walks over to the director.. The director calls me over and asks me if I said I was going to knock his teeth out.
I said no!!! I said if he sharks me again I was going to knock his teeth out.
The player says...SEE....what are you going to do... The director said NOTHING.. I suggest you don't shark him again. He forfeits the match..leaves the tourney. He played for many weeks after that and sat in the chair like a gentlemen.
I am not saying I am a tough guy and I am not saying violence is the answer, but sometimes people need to be straightened out.
When I grew up if I was disrespectful my grandmother would beat my ass..
then my mother and father.
If I write the rules..you respect the game, the other players and fans....you dress nicely...clean haircut...well groomed.
If you run your mouth...you are out....off with your head...put you in the ground and let the railbirds stone you to death.
hahaha...I will probably be the only one in the tourney

 

[Ken_4fun]

CJ -

You missed my point too.

The players today don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Earl put nails in coffin of pool years ago at Romines and I will never forget it.

We need to do it better, and more professional than anybody else. We need to dress professional, act professional, behave like adults.

You always want to talk about the egg coming before the chicken. (there is no game). MY point is if we continue to dress and act like hobos who the hell would want to make something of pool.

You guys keep defending Earl, he is costing you money.

Ken

 

[darmoose]

I'm sorry about that, but I'm not doing anything unusual. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be happy to make any adjustments if possible. I would think this is the same for everyone.

If there's any change I could make I would, it makes no difference to me,

CJ

Not wishing to give you a hard time or anything. Do you see the problem on your screen when you read your posts? Since yours are theonly ones that appear to have this problem ( which I have noticed on some currently active other threads also) It must be something to do with your settings.

I would think you would care and want to fix this, perhaps someone on the board or with AZB could help you. I am sorry,I don't know the answer or I would tell you.

 

[eezbank]

CJ

Not wishing to give you a hard time or anything. Do you see the problem on your screen when you read your posts? Since yours are theonly ones that appear to have this problem ( which I have noticed on some currently active other threads also) It must be something to do with your settings.

I would think you would care and want to fix this, perhaps someone on the board or with AZB could help you. I am sorry,I don't know the answer or I would tell you.

On my screen it looks like CJs picture width is forcing the border over. I don't have the issue with it affecting the text but I can see where this might cause a problem.

 

[Powerlifter]

Now we a getting some where:grin: the fact pool has tried the dress up act like choir boys routine in the past and just where did that get them
By far with out a shadow of doubt the most entertaining pool bar none is the Mossconi cup because it has life action and drama that's the recipe for success


1

I'd like to see someone try to sell the game of pool to a young crowd. Let them make it professional as they think it "should be". You could have every top pro in a room with a suit and tie,and acting like they are in church. Tell me how that's going to compete with a ps4 or an Xbox one in a room full of teenagers. The game is so unappealing as is,and it honestly seems like people want it as boring as possible. Kids don't care about stories and what used to be's. You could top it all off by telling them "with proper dedication and practice for 10 years you could also make no money,unless your gambling".

 

[Jim Baxter]

It would not hurt my feelings if I never ever saw Earl the Pearl , lean over another pool table . He's like a spoiled 3yr old . And it seems everyone kisses his as- , they believe pool will disappear if Earl is not there to cause trouble . If he can't keep his mouth shut , he should stay at home . JMO . Jim

 

[Luxury]

The WPBL code of conduct.....

WPBL Personal Conduct Policy
All WPBL players and staff are required to avoid all conduct that would be deemed detrimental to the integrity of the league and the image it represents. Therefore certain behaviors inside and outside of the WPBL studios will not be tolerated and will result in various forms of discipline.
-Slandering of the league, the game of bonus ball, or anything directly related to either

-Derogatory comments or gestures towards any player, official, staff or audience member of the WPBL including but not limited to homophobic, racial or sexist in origin made by any means including social media

-Damage or theft of any property of the WPBL

-Showing up late or missing a match

-Assaulting any player, official or fan

-Cheating

-Gambling on any WPBL match

-Any intentional decrease in performance
The preceding will be dealt with by various forms of discipline based on a league committee ruling:
1.Verbal Warning
2.Written Warning
3.Monetary fine
4.League Suspension
5.League Expulsion


This document was given to all the players along with their contracts back in November. We have an appointed ruling committee that will meet on matters like last nights. It consists of myself, Larry Chiborak, Nathan Dumoulin, Johnny Archer (voted by players) and Thorsten Hohmann (voted by players).

We will have a decision and public announcement soon.

It's almost as if nobody even saw this post.

 

[sjm]

It`s funny that about 98% of "behavior" problems in pool involve Earl.

That number sounds a little low to me.

 

[watchez]

Ok by those standards, the percentages are a little different. I never saw CW on a phone but i sure can picture that. But really i've seen hundreds and hundreds of pro matches and ive never seen anyone on a phone. I heard a ring or two a couple of time but that's it.

I know the Mosconi alleged dumping is a Pet Peeve of yours but how many matches even took place that would have a known effect on the Mosconi points? 3? If they were all dumped and i believe that should earn a lifetime ban for anyone who may have done it once, it still has less impact on pool than Earl's antics event after event, year after year due to the visibility factor

I know pool is a small community and you could very well know for a fact that the matches were dumped. Do you know this for a fact?

Last year in the US Open 10 Ball - Charlie Williams was texting for several innings while his opponent was shooting.

I know for a fact there have been dumps. One time is one too many and to me more horrific than any of Earl's antics. This is my opinion. You can certainly have yours. I could solve Earl in 5 minutes. You couldn't solve dumping in 5 years. And this doesn't include dumps outside of the tournament setting.

 

[CJ Wiley]

there's much I can do unless it's my Avitar. I'll change it now

CJ

Not wishing to give you a hard time or anything. Do you see the problem on your screen when you read your posts? Since yours are theonly ones that appear to have this problem ( which I have noticed on some currently active other threads also) It must be something to do with your settings.

I would think you would care and want to fix this, perhaps someone on the board or with AZB could help you. I am sorry,I don't know the answer or I would tell you.

I do care, and I would like to fix it, however I don't have any "super forum powers" and doubt if there's much I can do unless it's my Avitar. I'll change it now and see if that helps...someone will have to tell me though, there's no way I can tell the effect it has on other people's screen image.

Thanks, and if the AZ Moderators have any suggestions please PM me asap. Aloha