glue

Back in the early 80's when West system was being pushed in the NZ market place, one of their sales pitches was you only needed one resin to do everything. They had glue fillers,fairing fillers,light weight fillers, and it was a laminating system. Came with 3 hardener types, slow for hot weather or where more layup time was needed,medium for normal weather conditions, and quick for cooler room temperatures.There was a chart with what was needed for the application,ie just the resin as in laminating or what mix of fillers to use for the different stages in a fairing fillet.
The info is still there, just have to search for it.
Now they have a whole bunch of stuff, I like using the proset infusion resin for structural work with composites.
 
Paul Dayton said:
I've gotten dizzy trying to read this thread and I can't explain why nobody has mentioned a major ingredient that has to be used when mixing and using epoxy for structural gluing jobs. I've been a West user since 1994 and have never used the slow epoxy without adding a little or a lot of filler. I use Cab-o-sil which I bought in a ten pound bag and is enough for two lifetimes. You can add enough filler to have the epoxy change the viscosity of the glue to that of peanut butter and still have it work just fine. As a thicker material the glue fills up all the voids and still glues with penetration and full stength. It is the only thing I core with and I haven't had a single core buzz. Filled glue also machines very well. It turns off in long tough strips and can be tapped and threaded.
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I had an elderly customer who used the west system, filler and dye to make his inlays. He gave me a cue that had large letters spelling "Cue Man" in the points. I did not see any spots or voids in it. I was impressed. Is the Cab-o-sil easy to find? Does it speed up the drying time?
 
Dang this is a long thread but holy cow there is a WEALTH of information contained in this thread. Thanks to all that have contributed, this is surely a great learning thread for us beginners.
 
cueman said:
I had an elderly customer who used the west system, filler and dye to make his inlays. He gave me a cue that had large letters spelling "Cue Man" in the points. I did not see any spots or voids in it. I was impressed. Is the Cab-o-sil easy to find? Does it speed up the drying time?
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You can find it online pretty easy, at the worst you will buy it from system three located in WA state but you can find it closer to you. System Three web site states that their T-88 gap filling structural epoxy needs no filler. The filler does not speed up drying time. Don't know about the West full cure time but the System Three is 72 hours.
 
Paul Dayton said:
I've gotten dizzy trying to read this thread and I can't explain why nobody has mentioned a major ingredient that has to be used when mixing and using epoxy for structural gluing jobs. I've been a West user since 1994 and have never used the slow epoxy without adding a little or a lot of filler. I use Cab-o-sil which I bought in a ten pound bag and is enough for two lifetimes. You can add enough filler to have the epoxy change the viscosity of the glue to that of peanut butter and still have it work just fine. As a thicker material the glue fills up all the voids and still glues with penetration and full stength. It is the only thing I core with and I haven't had a single core buzz. Filled glue also machines very well. It turns off in long tough strips and can be tapped and threaded.
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It was fun reading the argument slow set epoxies wick too much for a while.
West System has some videos that need to be seen.
RBC of OB was the first one I read here use West 206 and cab o Sil
for their cores.
For small jobs like inserts I still prefer using the gun with
epoxy cartridges.
 
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scdiveteam said:
Robin,

Take one of the cured forearms or full core blanks you core and hold it between 2 fingers about 3 inches from the short end so it can swing freely pivoting between your two fingers when you push the bottom with your other hand.

Now pick up a big box wrench or something steel and tap the wood so it swings freely while you hold the joint end right next to your ear. After I did this, there was no question in my mind that I was going with the GG or Accel poly glue with a few sprits of water on the glue buttering the dowel before insertion.

Rick
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Rick-
Thanks for the tip. Actually, GG was what I did all my earliest cues with. I didn't even know anyone else use it. It works great!
We seem to use the same technique. And yes, they ring like a bell.

Lately, I've done a bunch of cues using the time consuming epoxy pre-glue/re-bore technique I described earlier. None of the cores have fallen out; the tone is good, no strange noises.

I have also used epoxy/filler in cues. It worked great. I just couldn't handle the idea that my cue was filled with Bondo. just kidding, stay calm

The best playing cue I ever made used GG for the core adhesive.

I just continue to look for something better.

Robin Snyder
 
Started working on this cue tonight. It get's the butt plate glued and then a refinish and rewrap. I know that this cue was built using G-5 adhesive. The cue was built in 2002 so the glue lasted 10 years anyway. I want grandchildren to still be able to use their grandpa's cue myself!





Dick
 
rhncue said:
Started working on this cue tonight. It get's the butt plate glued and then a refinish and rewrap. I know that this cue was built using G-5 adhesive. The cue was built in 2002 so the glue lasted 10 years anyway. I want grandchildren to still be able to use their grandpa's cue myself!





Dick
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Lesson learned but it's gonna fall on some deaf ears.
Thanks Dick.
 
Dick,

Question:

Is the black phenolic piece on your compound representative of the piece that was taken off the cue in the chuck collet???

If so the please note that the glue on the face is yellow which is not an attribute of G5 quick set epoxy??? It is crystal clear! The glue on that small cap may be something else???

Also, there does not seem to be any glue residue on the ID of the ring whatsoever and very little residue on the tenon either??? That in itself may be the root cause for the failure????

JMObservation,

Rick

 
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From my experiences, epoxies that set faster are harder and more brittle. They also do not wick into the wood as far as a slower setting epoxy.

More brittle means it cannot withstand changes in temp and/or humidity. As the cue gets cold, hot, humid, and/or dry, the glue needs to move along with the substrate. Once the bond is broke, it will continue to do so until you see a failure like Dick posted. Using it on a metal joint pin is asking for trouble.

A slower setting glue that wicks creates that much more of a bond, turning a few thou' of, say, the butt cap and a few thou' of the wood into part of the bond. That is much stronger and able to withstand the natural movement and impact a cue goes through. This is especially evident in end grain applications. Parts that are sleeved on may not ever fall off but the bond at the face may break loose causing the finish to pop at that spot as seen with metal rings. I see this on many, many cues.

Rick has mentioned it may be overkill but cue building is a slow process anyway so why not choose a slow set epoxy for construction? If you are in that much of a hurry, the cue probably won't last. Many processes in cue building are about minimizing future issues. I'm not saying 5 minute epoxy won't work. I'm just saying I'm not going to use it for cue construction outside of tips and ferrules.
 
scdiveteam said:
Dick,

Question:

Is the black phenolic piece on your compound representative of the piece that was taken off the cue in the chuck collet???

If so the please note that the glue on the face is yellow which is not an attribute of G5 quick set epoxy??? It is crystal clear! The glue on that small cap may be something else???

Also, there does not seem to be any glue residue on the ID of the ring whatsoever and very little residue on the tenon either??? That in itself may be the root cause for the failure????

JMObservation,

Rick

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As you can see at the base of the tenon, I faced the remaining ring stack before I thought about taking pictures. I know the builder well and G-5 is what he uses on all of his builds. It looks to me that under certain conditions, adhesives can make changes. It appears to me that with age, this particular adhesive not only breaks down but also yellows.

Dick
 
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That sure convinces me even more that a threaded buttplate
pushing the ring stack together tight; and with thickened slow set
epoxy is a much better way of doing it.
it might fall on deaf ears but wuttever.
I stil have no idea why anyone would be so in a hurry to use a 5-minute
epoxy there. Are you going to turn the cue in minutes while the customer
is waiting like when someone wants a new ferrule or tip installed fast?
The wicking argument over slowset was already shot down.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
That sure convinces me even more that a threaded buttplate
pushing the ring stack together tight; and with thickened slow set
epoxy is a much better way of doing it.
it might fall on deaf ears but wuttever.
I stil have no idea why anyone would be so in a hurry to use a 5-minute
epoxy there. Are you going to turn the cue in minutes while the customer
is waiting like when someone wants a new ferrule or tip installed fast?
The wicking argument over slowset was already shot down.
Click to expand...
............................................................
 
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