Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"

Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.
 
bstroud said:
Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.
Click to expand...

I kind of like this. Play a predetermined number of innings. One player sets up a break shot and tries to run 15. Your turn ends when you miss. However may balls you makes is your score for that inning. Then its the other guys turn to set up a break shot and try to run 15. After the last inning, the player with the most balls wins.

I'm gonna try it.

I think 5-7 innings would be good. If you want, put a 15 minute time limit per inning.
 
Last edited:
spliced said:
I kind of like this. Play a predetermined number of innings. One player sets up a break shot and tries to run 15. However may balls he makes is his score for that inning. Then its the other guys turn to set up a break shot and try to run 15. After the last inning, the player with the most balls wins.

I'm gonna try it.
Click to expand...

Depending on your skill level, I think it would also work well if you combined it with Fargo and had to run the last 5 in order, but they are worth 2 points each.
 
bstroud said:
Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.
Click to expand...


Even major successful tv sports like pro basketball and pro football need to make occasional concessions to stay afloat. The 3 point shot in basketball and the option to go for 2 points in football are good examples. Maybe some sort of incentive to run out could be introduced into some games without disturbing their original format. Other than that I don't see billiards becoming a top tv sport without the addition of fist fights or name calling. On a more realistic level, I always thought the idea of money matches shown direct from poolrooms might go over big. Of course like most reality type shows it wouldn't be long before even the most honest matchups would take on the contrived look of most reality shows resulting in suspicion that some of the games are not exactly on the level. But if it could be done, if it could be brought to the viewer that these two players are playing for all the marbles and one is going home broke, surely that would go over. But only if the viewer can be convinced the game they're watching is going to produce only one winner with the loser getting absolutely nothing. That would not be an easy sell. But it's an idea non the less.

TJ
 
dr9ball said:
Technically in baseball, the first team to bat could keep hitting fair balls and getting on base till the end of time and if they don't get 3 outs they keep hitting don't they?
Click to expand...


Watching a game like that would drive me batty.

TJ
 
Paul Schofield said:
I am with you. I am for everybody playing pool in any way they like (as long as they play).

In my opinion, organized pool's best chance of succeeding is with the bowling and golf template with one game and one set of rules. Play all the other games on the side.
Click to expand...

4 BALL, scores like bowling, shooters play the same coarse, the table and pockets, the skill of the shot making is the difference. The shooters with cue ball control have the advantage. Great for practice/learn as I have had to do, if you can not back-up the cue ball with control, scoring will be difficult. It seems simple and uninteresting till you keep fouling out with 0's. It is at billiardscribdotcom
 
I initially, when I started to read this thread, thought that the FATAL FLAW in AZ , and other, other pool forums was allowing threads like this. It was a FLAWED premise FATED TO FAIL FATALLY. As I read some posts, I realized that I was wrong. No, not in my original assumption but in not taking into account the ingenuity of the AZ nation to make this into a thoughtful (mostly) brain storming session that produced some very good ideas.

I did not get through all 471 post, read about half, but there were some very good points raised and I would like to leverage them along with my own observations/opinions.

The alternate break format and the must win by both have merit as does loser break in terms of levelling the ability of both players to participate more. It was thought that 8 ball was easier to understand than the rotation games to the casual observer. All of these points have merit if the objective is to promote the game to a wider audience.

I would also add that to reach a wider audience through mainstream TV the presentation would have to change dramatically. Imagine all of the successful sports quoted here, Golf, Basketball, Baseball etc., if the TV networks showed an edited version, not live and sometimes out of sequence. Would those audiences be as rabid in supporting them as they now are?

Bonus Ball provides some good ideas. A time limit for each game with a shoot out if it is not finished on time, a shot clock on each shot and as an added bonus the players are mic’d so you can hear their strategy/interactions. The time limit might allow mainstream TV to broadcast live events.

I watched the US Open stream last year and, as a poolplayer, enjoyed watching the performance of break and runs that SVB put on in a match with Alex. However, as a fan, cheering for Alex....not so enjoyable watching Alex sit.

I watched a TAR PPV of 8 ball last night. Earl vs Jason Klatt. LOVED IT. Alternate break added to the excitement, the ability to run out now became exciting, sort of like keeping your serve in tennis.

As a player I enjoy playing against other players that have the potential to run out if you miss and they get to the table. Alternate break levels the playing field so the chances are there for both players and each shot has drama.

Thanks for sparking the debate. Paul. By the way, I believe Pool is alive and well and growing in terms of the amateur player (many who are not that far below pro level) it is the lack of an extended, non player, fan base for mass media that hurts the Pro level player. Maybe, buried in all of these posts, is the spark of an idea that will see it develope. Again, thanks.
 
paulcourville said:
So, as in most of those other sports... when one team scores, the other team gets to take over the object of play.. I guess with that being the case, Pocket Billiards could change so that each player shoots ONCE.. then it's the other players turn, weather the first shooter made anything or not.. hmmmmm, I break, and a ball is pocketed, table is still Open at that point.. I call a ball and a pocket and I drop the called ball, it's NOW my opponents turn, a shot is made and is missed, it's now my turn at the table.. hmmmmm no huge runs, no break & run possibility. Cue ball position after each shot becomes more critical as you are no longer setting up your own next shot but your opponents next shot... Each attempt at pocketing a ball is now two fold in that you're aiming to make a ball and a saftey play with the cue ball at the same time.. It could be interesting.. I'm gonna have to try this out ! ! !
Click to expand...

I love this idea. I am going to try this. First to 100.
 
Her is another idea.

Could be 9 or 10 ball.

Two tables in the pit facing opposite directions.

One player on each table.

They break at the same time.

If they break and run they get 10 points.

If they miss they get ball in hand and continue to play. If they run our from there they get six points.

If they miss again they get ball in hand again and continue to shoot. If they run the remaining balls they get three points.

Three strikes and out.

If they string racks they would get bonus points so they are never really out of the match until the last rack. Say one bonus point for the second rack, 3 for the third rack and so on up the scale.

No safety. All shooting. Both players have the exact same opportunity.

Seems like an exciting format to me.

Bill S.
 
bstroud said:
Her is another idea.

Could be 9 or 10 ball.

Two tables in the pit facing opposite directions.

One player on each table.

They break at the same time.

If they break and run they get 10 points.

If they miss they get ball in hand and continue to play. If they run our from there they get six points.

If they miss again they get ball in hand again and continue to shoot. If they run the remaining balls they get three points.

Three strikes and out.

If they string racks they would get bonus points so they are never really out of the match until the last rack. Say one bonus point for the second rack, 3 for the third rack and so on up the scale.

No safety. All shooting. Both players have the exact same opportunity.

Seems like an exciting format to me.

Bill S.
Click to expand...

That completely removes any real person-vs-person competition. It's like practice, only.. in front of people. If people didn't watch pool now, I really don't think they'd watch that. I could be wrong, though.

PS - All you have to do is say you're not making the cue and bring some closure.
 
A few thoughts and comments... firstly I agree with the OP that his point is something that the average viewer finds wrong.

Here in SoCal Ernesto used to have a thing called Equal Offense. They were pre set table layouts and you simply ran out and kept track of how many shots it took. Perform at one table then move to the next .. after going through them everyones scores were tallied and the top 5-10 went on to the "finals" and a different set of less layouts.

I enjoyed watching it and probably was in the minority thinking that it would be more interesting with some obstacles on the table. Anyway it was an "equal playing field".


We talked on here in the past about ghost tourneys. I always thought it was the way to go for spectators that wanted to see outs... Two players against each other ... one breaks and takes BIH and trys to runout..if successful he gets a point, next guy steps up and tries the same... make it a race to whatever and at least the players have a chance to match a guy instead of just sitting and never getting to do so... this is what makes golf appealing...
Recently a friend suggested figuring out a way someone could risk points earned on his next attempt to add in a gambling element and a chance for someone to make a comeback.

Mike Janis had a couple "ghost" tournaments a few years back. Not 100% how they turned out and what viewers thought. Someone on here should know and remember them.

I played leagues for a while and am not opposed to them at all. I have believed for years that we needed team pool with regionally based teams.... gives a fanbase per region and people like to pull for teams and people from regional locations.

I might be in the minority but I like Bonus Ball... I just watched a lot of episodes and found that I was inclined to pull for certain teams and players. I liked the team concept and even from watching the Mosconi Cup you can see the team concept adds some additional pressure to the players. I love hearing the interaction between the players as well. and the game isnt as bad as I was thinking. It adds in some elements that make in unique but familiar to other table games we are familiar with.
 
It actually doesn't remove person to person competition.

Your opponent is playing at the same time as you are.

Think you might want to see what he is doing? Maybe sneak a peak?

One of the main benefits to the spectator is that you get to see both players play a full set. Just like golf.

One player does not sit in his seat while the other plays.

Much better for the players and the spectators.

Bill S.
 
Great sports have one thing in common: a very interesting human dynamic. Sports are merely a platform for the drama in diverse, human interaction. It is this that can make or break a sport. Think about poker. Its not about pool, folks. Bill Stroud gets it. He is talking about engaging both players at the same time as compared to what we do now.

I think its fun to brainstorm these things.
 
Last edited:
Paul Schofield said:
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.
Click to expand...

Great Post! Who ran 240k in Straight Rail?
 
I think equal offense scenarios are fun to play but as spectator sports it would be like watching batting practice.

The tete a tete in pool is above the heads of casual viewers and players. Football is easy to understand, baseball, golf, etc...The thing is they are all competing against people. Pool is a great game against people but it's not that exciting to watch when one player can take over the game and keep the other player powerless.

The question is: Do you want to entertain current fans or build a bigger fan base? If you want to entertain current fans then stay true to the game. If you want to build a new fan base then nothing is off-limits, but don't count on pool players to support you as fans.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Great sports have one thing in common: a very interesting human dynamic. Sports are merely a platform for the drama in diverse, human interaction. It is this that can make or break a sport. Think about poker. Its not about pool, folks. Bill Stroud gets it. He is talking about engaging both players at the same time as compared to what we do now.

I think its fun to brainstorm these things.
Click to expand...

Paul... Do you have any shake bottles and peas (pills) at your room in Erie?

All the old time rooms had Pea Pool players. Everyone played.. You were never
eliminated.. If someone made your ball you could still make another players ball.

The game would bring interest to all players, even the novices new to your room.

Game rules are here: http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/pea-pool
.
 
sixpack said:
The tete a tete in pool is above the heads of casual viewers and players.
Click to expand...

Best statement made on this thread!!!

And.....that's why pool has it's own uniqueness as opposed to other sports/games. It has a quality about it that is hard to put into words. I like it the way it is. There are PLENTY enough games already to keep pool interesting to the players. I can't ever see it appealing to spectators again (except hardcore to semi-hardcore players).

You know.....it's a tough game to get proficient at. Kids today want instant results/gratification. They'll be looking for something a little more challenging as they get older. Hell, I didn't start playing pool seriously until I was 53 years old. Before then, I may have gotten into a pool hall twice a year (in a GOOD year).

It (pool) ain't goin' nowhere. It's here to stay. There are peaks and valleys to everything in life.

Maniac
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top