Skid

[lfigueroa]

I just don't understand you telling Chris that skid is only chalk induced but then claiming you know when skids will happen.

How come a pro doesn't know but you do?

I will take one shot at this and one shot only: Chalk, on the CB or OB, causes skids when there is chalk on one of the balls at the contact point between the two balls. Skid causes increased "throw" causing the OB to travel on a straighter path than the shooter intended, usually, depending on the amount of skid, resulting in a miss.

IME, there are certain shots where the potential for skid is greater. Why? Because when a CB is struck with a chalked tip, that is the time when the greatest amount chalk is likely to be on the CB at a given spot on the ball. And, on some shots, such as the one I described earlier, skid can be predicted *to be possible* because, at slow speed and given a short distance between CB and OB, the chalk A. does not rub off much as the CB rolls to the OB, and B. the CB will rotate just the right number of rotations for the chalk mark to come up at the contact point.

When I say skid is predictable, all I'm saying is that after years of play you come to recognize *the possibility* that skid will manifest itself. It's just an intuitive feeling and usually, I'm not thinking of it. But in certain critical situations, say a high run and I start to approach 100, I'm more likely to tune in on that feeling and take care to hit shots that look to me like skid shots, with a firmer stroke, or as someone else has suggested, with some outside english to reduce the probability of that happening.

None of this makes me any better than anyone. It's just my experience that I am sharing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

the guys who study this will have to confirm but from what I see/hear/understand, "skid" is an object ball being pushed across the cloth (or hopped), even for a fraction of a second, rather than being rolled when being contacted by the cue ball.

And the leading candidate for why "skid" happens seems to be chalk creating friction at the point of the two balls colliding.

Then the discussion goes into various ball hardnesses, cleanliness, smoothness, cloth conditions, weather, spin, and just plain bad aiming.

Did I get all of this correct? :wink:

best,
brian kc

Here is the thing. I watched Chris' match with Ko. Chris missed a shot to the side where he had to load it up with inside spin. He barely missed the shot. He claims it was a skid.

Earlier in the thread he says that slow shots with a lot of inside can cause skids.

I don't understand that. For example the shot that he missed the inside spin would have counteracted the throw, you can set it up yourself.

Chris missed the shot on the far side of the pocket OPPOSITE of the throw. So even if he would have shot the ball with NO spin the throw would have been going the OTHER DIRECTION. With addition of the inside spin the throw was simply counteracted so to me if there was a skid then it would have had to be more to right but the ball missed to the left. This indicates to me that the actual contact point was off by too much.

So,

My question is what is skid? Because Chris and Bill both think it's something else beyond chalk at the contact point. They obviously feel something when the balls react a certain way that they are calling skid. There is a reason Chris is saying that these balls skid more while Bill is the opposite opinion. Furthermore the fact that they used a cue ball with 48% resin with a set of balls with a claimed 78% (numbers not checked) is something that could be a factor. Why that was done is beyond me really.

But my larger point is really more of a statement that no one really knows what "skid" is because of so many variables. I am content to go with larger than expected throw but obviously that doesn't fit Chris' and others observations. Also doesn't it follow that if there could be larger than expected throw that there is also less than expected throw?

What would that be called?

 

[RBC]

Wow!

What a thread, lol.

I've used the Cyclop balls in our booth 3 times now. The first and second were the trade show last year and this year, and the third was this BCAPL tourney going on now.

At last years trade show, the balls didn't get heavy use, and we didn't see any issues. At this years trade show we had Alex Corey and Phil in the booth for days and they saw plenty of use. At this BCAPL, of course they get tons of play all day. And, they get many different hands touching them with food drinks cigarette smoke etc. It's not a real clean environment.

At both the trade show events I noticed no issues with the balls. They stayed clean and played great. I too felt they reminded me of the old centennials.

At this years BCAPL, the balls have played great and I have not witnessed one single skid. They are dirtier though due to the much heavier play. I think they throw more now at the end of the show than they did at the beginning, but no unexpected, excessive skids or throws.

I believe that a skid or kick happens when something that isn't supposed to be there gets between the cueball and the object ball. I really don't see how the balls can have anything to do with it. If they are a higher friction surface, then they will have a higher throw all the time as compared to a ball with lower surface friction.

As for me, I like the new balls. I don't like the colors so much but could grow to accept them if I had too. I think these balls are harder so they cut cleaner. Especially on the thinner cuts.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

As far as I know skid is simply excessive throw resulting from increased duration contact between CB and OB.
This happens due to reasons that I believe are covered in the previous posts, mainly increased moisture and dirt. New sets of balls tend to skid more as well due to their surface coat not having the chance to "break in" as it does after some play.
The OB comes off "short" in direction and this usually presents with a miss or a pocket if aming was too thin in the first place..
I don't see any reason to complicate the discussion any further, and any thoughts about new brands of ball sets need to go through actual testing.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Personally , i preferred your Pixie dust theory.
..

That would have been Thaig's theory. Or whatever his new name is.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... excessive throw resulting from increased duration contact between CB and OB.
...

A small nit about this description: I think the contact time is not important. I think the friction at the contact point is the important decider of what happens to the balls.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I really don't see how the balls can have anything to do with it. If they are a higher friction surface, then they will have a higher throw all the time as compared to a ball with lower surface friction.
....

I've seen cue balls that seemed to pick up any chalk in the vicinity. I think this affinity can be changed by how and how often the cue ball is cleaned. I've even seen newly cleaned cue balls that retained chalk a lot more than average.

One way to test for this is to chalk your finger and then rub it lightly over the surface of the cue ball. Are there patches on the cue ball that pick up chalk from your finger? If the cue ball does this, it's time to get out the polish.

I think that eventually pool players will catch on to the fact that clean equipment is better for the game. Some already have.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Skid causes increased "throw" causing the OB to travel on a straighter path than the shooter intended, usually, depending on the amount of skid, resulting in a miss....

Since I'm picking nits this morning, I'll pick one here. It is possible for skid to cause an over cut if the player is using "excess" outside english. There is a video of Ronnie O'Sullivan playing snooker in which he is playing a nearly straight shot on the black ball (7) and has to draw back to the side cushion and up the table for the next red using outside draw. He greatly over cut the black and ended up with far less draw than he was planning.

On a related point, one of the most common situations where skid occurs is on straight soft follow shots. You make the object ball, usually, but the cue ball jumps in the air and loses much of its follow and you don't get the position you were hoping for.

 

[Johnnyt]

You want to see skids? Play in high humidity, the measel ball, $35 chalk, and dirty balls. There will be a whole lot of skidding going on. Johnnyt

 

[cardiac kid]

Chris,

If you think you had problems, ask some of the "amateurs" about skids. We had to play with the cue ball "matched" to the object ball set. You at least had the "measles" cue ball to play with. Made lots of mistakes this trip. Honestly lost one match when the cue ball "skid" two shots in consecutive racks with dead center cue ball. Nothing else. Not an excuse. Sure did take me out of my match mentally. My fault completely.

Lyn

 

[Fatboy]

A small nit about this description: I think the contact time is not important. I think the friction at the contact point is the important decider of what happens to the balls.

i agree 100% when its ball2ball contact, however when its tip2ball then the time does mater because the cue is moving behind the tip which has a direct effect on what happens during that contact time, because the cue movment is slower thus making extra time necessary.

again ball2ball friction or lack of friction is the decider all things being equal

 

[Fatboy]

You want to see skids? Play in high humidity, the measel ball, $35 chalk, and dirty balls. There will be a whole lot of skidding going on. Johnnyt

JT the higher the humidity the more friction there is and less skids, on clean equipment. Where I'm living now the humidity is all over the map, 20-100% and on wet days the banks shorten up, skids decrease. Dry days more skids and longer banks. Same as vegas where its dry 95% of the time, VERY DRY lots of skids and long banks, the ball slides there, the banks spread. I can make lots of banks in Vegas that wont go here cause the wet tables are to slow.

 

[bstroud]

Did your measles ball come with the rest of the balls in the set or did you buy it separately.

I have two measles ball one from the set of super pros's and the other I bought separately. Both are different. Color is off on one.

Perhaps yours is not from a matched set.

Mine came with the TV set.

In my match with Chris I think his skids came from the cue ball although I did not have any playing with the same cue ball.
I was very careful on the shots I thought might have the potential to skid and made sure I used a touch of English.
It makes it a little harder to play position but seems to be good insurance.

Bill S.

 

[real bartram]

Wow!

What a thread, lol.

I've used the Cyclop balls in our booth 3 times now. The first and second were the trade show last year and this year, and the third was this BCAPL tourney going on now.

At last years trade show, the balls didn't get heavy use, and we didn't see any issues. At this years trade show we had Alex Corey and Phil in the booth for days and they saw plenty of use. At this BCAPL, of course they get tons of play all day. And, they get many different hands touching them with food drinks cigarette smoke etc. It's not a real clean environment.

At both the trade show events I noticed no issues with the balls. They stayed clean and played great. I too felt they reminded me of the old centennials.

At this years BCAPL, the balls have played great and I have not witnessed one single skid. They are dirtier though due to the much heavier play. I think they throw more now at the end of the show than they did at the beginning, but no unexpected, excessive skids or throws.

I believe that a skid or kick happens when something that isn't supposed to be there gets between the cueball and the object ball. I really don't see how the balls can have anything to do with it. If they are a higher friction surface, then they will have a higher throw all the time as compared to a ball with lower surface friction.

As for me, I like the new balls. I don't like the colors so much but could grow to accept them if I had too. I think these balls are harder so they cut cleaner. Especially on the thinner cuts.

Just my thoughts.

They said maybe what they used to clean the balls made the skids come up so much
All I know is there were more skids in 10 days then I have seen in 1 year

 

[denzy]

They said maybe what they used to clean the balls made the skids come up so much
All I know is there were more skids in 10 days then I have seen in 1 year

I have been noticing more skid shots the last year in the bigger tournaments and using different pool balls. Dont know with the changing off pool balls has anything to do with all the skid shots but using different pool balls from a company in major tournaments is not right. Does anybody really know how long Cyclops balls been in business making pool balls. Maybe next tournament get pool balls made from a company that makes their first set of pool balls for the tournament.

 

[JB Cases]

I have been noticing more skid shots the last year in the bigger tournaments and using different pool balls. Dont know with the changing off pool balls has anything to do with all the skid shots but using different pool balls from a company in major tournaments is not right. Does anybody really know how long Cyclops balls been in business making pool balls. Maybe next tournament get pool balls made from a company that makes their first set of pool balls for the tournament.

I can't speak to Chris' assessment but I will tell you a story about perception.

Several years ago I was sourcing balls. I had many sets from several companies. A few of these sets were identical to the Aramith sets in appearance. So I took them to the pool room and switched the sets and asked the good players about them after playing for an hour. They didn't even know we weren't using Aramith balls.

I promise you that there are balls made in China which from the look and feel are indistinguishable from Aramith balls. I would bet super large that if I put these balls on the pro tables that not 5% of the pro would even comment on the balls or fault them for skids.

In fact and unfortunately there are many counterfeit ball sets on the market in China. If you want to have a fake set of Aramith balls then you can get them for less than $100 on China's version of Ebay, TaoBao, all day every day. These balls are identical to real Aramiths in look and sometimes in performance.

 

[APA7]

i agree 100% when its ball2ball contact, however when its tip2ball then the time does mater because the cue is moving behind the tip which has a direct effect on what happens during that contact time, because the cue movment is slower thus making extra time necessary.

again ball2ball friction or lack of friction is the decider all things being equal

LOLzz!! Now U R arguing physics with Bob Jewett??!! Talk about showing up at a gun fight with a fork in your hand, hahahh

 

[1on1pooltournys]

They said maybe what they used to clean the balls made the skids come up so much
All I know is there were more skids in 10 days then I have seen in 1 year

You gotta BDF it. Sucks.

 

[Nick B]

LOLzz!! Now U R arguing physics with Bob Jewett??!! Talk about showing up at a gun fight with a fork in your hand, hahahh

What else would a fatboy bring but a fork?

Nick

 

[Mark Griffin]

Skids

I disagree with your position. Skids happen. I am not going to tell you why because smarter people than me cant agree.

The bals were checked out prior to the event. We go with quality first - and other things next. We feel these balks are just fine.

Please don't tell me that I cannot make intelligent equipment choices in events that I fund. We have ALWAYS kept the events to the hight standards.

Were you at the event?

Mark griffin

I have been noticing more skid shots the last year in the bigger tournaments and using different pool balls. Dont know with the changing off pool balls has anything to do with all the skid shots but using different pool balls from a company in major tournaments is not right. Does anybody really know how long Cyclops balls been in business making pool balls. Maybe next tournament get pool balls made from a company that makes their first set of pool balls for the tournament.