Larry Chiborak???

[cleary]

Are you slamming Johnny in addition to Larry? Or who Justin?

JMO, but these waters are none to easy to navigate. Larry screwed the pooch, undeniable. JA is still swinging the bat, one that he as a player has to choke up on. You try taking that bat. Just saying.

Johnny supported bonus ball from day one (he was getting paid to) and Johnny was the biggest part of getting all of the players involved. Johnny also is the front of the sham that is the ABP. We heard all along, "the money is there... trust me". Well, it wasn't. The ABP is to fault for that which means Johnny.

I know a lot of people really think highly of Johnny.. I used to.

 

[Black-Balled]

I am inclined to agree that Johnny has the best intentions with his involvement in blowthis ball. He has the unique experience of viewing pool's potential- from the top of the hill- as a career for decades.

I think his propensity to align himself with others hurts his credibility though.

Nobody can het blood out of a turnip, proverbial or real.

And we would be naive to think we know much of his dealings and personal feelings about the chiborak debacle. For one, I hope he is using all his charms and hustle to squeeze chiborak to make right.

 

[CJ Wiley]

a degree of risk taking in this world to get out of oppressive situations

JA is doing his best to fix things, he ain's been lazy about it or passive. I havent discussed it with him, hell i aint talked to him in forever he has been so busy. He did pitch BB when it looked good, and when it went south, he has been trying to do his best to salvage it. This is well known information.

Johnny Archer can't predict the future no more than anyone else can. He and the other professional players are in a very brutal situation, where they have to pay up to $500. to get into professional tournaments, then only 25% of them get paid.

Ask yourself this question:

Would you rather "not get paid" 75% of the time FOR SURE, or take a chance on something that actually pays, with a calculated downside?

No matter how many weeks the players are "owed," it's still a better scenario than mindlessly going to these tournaments the way they are structured (with no TV).

Pro tournaments have always NOT paid up to 75% of the players, however, at least in the 90s we had ESPN so the sponsorship money was MUCH higher. "Sources" say that the best players are making about 15% of what we made in the 90s, and without TV this is probably true.

It takes a degree of risk taking in this world to get out of oppressive situations, and I admire the players for trying something new. I didn't pursue the BB, but if I was in their shoes I probably would have - if I had not been paid the last 4 weeks I'd be able to live with my decision.....not happy {of course} but I'd rather try and fail than not try at all. 'The Game {of Life} is the Teacher'

 

[jimmyg]

Not sure whether or not this 2006 post is a pure comparison, but it just may fit...

"Let's talk a little more about Mike Sigel before we decide to give him a free pass.

There is no question that it was KT's responsibility to do his own due diligence with respect to the IPT's business plan and prospects. But, I think that the issue to discuss here is Mike Sigel's relationship and his responsibility to his fellow IPT players and, as one of pool's "living legends", also to the game of pool, not his arrangement with Kevin Trudeau.

Mike Sigel's signature is all over the IPT, he and KT used Mike's name and reputation as a drawing card to deliver the entire pool world into the hands of Kevin Trudeau. That's how it was planned and it worked. Sigel and his name, gave the IPT credibility and put wind into it's sails.

Whether Mike Sigel conned Kevin Trudeau, or the exact nature of their business relationship, is something that we may never truly know. But that relationship has no bearing on the obligation that Sigel had to all of the players and others that became involved with the IPT, even partially, because of his name.

If pool is ever to emerge into mainstream sports, every one of it's leaders need to start living and thinking a little differently. Things like ethics and responsibility have to be taken seriously, and when they are not, those people need to be held responsible by the others involved in the sport, not looked upon as some kind of hustling hero. If that doesn't start happening, pool will always remain a second class sport.

If someone needs to betray himself, his friends and his sport in order to drive a Ferrari and wear two thousand dollar suits, he can stuff them all. Mike Sigel holds as much responsibility for the IPT folly as does KT. He needs to acknowledge that responsibility publically and apologize to all of those who's life he negatively affected, and then hope that they have it in their heart to forgive him.

Jim"

 

[CJ Wiley]

Didn't Kevin put several million into the players pockets?

"Let's talk a little more about Mike Sigel before we decide to give him a free pass.

There is no question that it was KT's responsibility to do his own due diligence with respect to the IPT's business plan and prospects. But, I think that the issue to discuss here is Mike Sigel's relationship and his responsibility to his fellow IPT players and, as one of pool's "living legends", also to the game of pool, not his arrangement with Kevin Trudeau.

Mike Sigel's signature is all over the IPT, he and KT used Mike's name and reputation as a drawing card to deliver the entire pool world into the hands of Kevin Trudeau. That's how it was planned and it worked. Sigel and his name, gave the IPT credibility and put wind into it's sails.

Whether Mike Sigel conned Kevin Trudeau, or the exact nature of their business relationship, is something that we may never truly know. But that relationship has no bearing on the obligation that Sigel had to all of the players and others that became involved with the IPT, even partially, because of his name.

If pool is ever to emerge into mainstream sports, every one of it's leaders need to start living and thinking a little differently. Things like ethics and responsibility have to be taken seriously, and when they are not, those people need to be held responsible by the others involved in the sport, not looked upon as some kind of hustling hero. If that doesn't start happening, pool will always remain a second class sport.

If someone needs to betray himself, his friends and his sport in order to drive a Ferrari and wear two thousand dollar suits, he can stuff them all. Mike Sigel holds as much responsibility for the IPT folly as does KT. He needs to acknowledge that responsibility publically and apologize to all of those who's life he negatively affected, and then hope that they have it in their heart to forgive him.

Jim"

Didn't Kevin put several million into the players pockets? I know the first tournament went well, I was there, and the BCA "Hall of Famers" were guaranteed 25k apiece if memory serves me correctly. There was at least a million in prize money in total for that one event.

 

[Fatboy]

JA sent me a txt said he was busy, "very busy" and he would call me later tonight. He didnt call which is unusual, i'm certain he is trying to work a deal with pool's best interest in mind.

I know JA is smart enough to realize the implications of what has happened, and he will do his best to solve things within his abilities using all his resources and contacts.

Mike was paid monster $$$ from KT, there is no comparison between the 2 things at all.

 

[jimmyg]

Didn't Kevin put several million into the players pockets? I know the first tournament went well, I was there, and the BCA "Hall of Famers" were guaranteed 25k apiece if memory serves me correctly. There was at least a million in prize money in total for that one event.

All Ponzi schemers and con men have large up front, start up, costs, and some outsiders do, in fact, actually profit from the schemes, some nicely. Know people who got in early with Madoff and actually made money with him. It's only at the end that the damage is visible, throwing your friends and family under the bus for few bucks is nothing to be proud of, IMO.

The old, "I, he, she, made money" line is getting old. IMO.

J

 

[CJ Wiley]

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation

All Ponzi schemers and con men have large up front, start up, costs, and some outsiders do, in fact, actually profit from the schemes, some nicely. Know people who got in early with Madoff and actually made money with him. It's only at the end that the damage is visible, throwing your friends and family under the bus for few bucks is nothing to be proud of, IMO.

The old, "I, he, she, made money" line is getting old. IMO.

J

So the IPT and Bonus Ball were Ponzi Schemes?

Maybe some people lost money, but I've never heard of it being a "Ponzi Scheme" before.

In Regular Tournaments players put up money and 75% of them lose that money.....what kind of "scheme" is this? I would think it's just the "cost of doing business, or the cost of playing under impoverished conditions".

Here's what Wikipedia defines as a Ponzi Scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to keep the scheme going.[1]


The scheme is named after Charles Ponzi,[2] who became notorious for using the technique in 1920.[3] Ponzi did not invent the scheme (for example, Charles Dickens' 1844 novel Martin Chuzzlewit and 1857 novel Little Dorrit each described such a scheme),[4] but his operation took in so much money that it was the first to become known throughout the United States. Ponzi's original scheme was based on the arbitrage of international reply coupons for postage stamps; however, he soon diverted investors' money to make payments to earlier investors and himself.

 

[jimmyg]

So the IPT and Bonus Ball were Ponzi Schemes?

Maybe some people lost money, but I've never heard of it being a "Ponzi Scheme" before.

In Regular Tournaments players put up money and 75% of them lose that money.....what kind of "scheme" is this? I would think it's just the "cost of doing business, or the cost of playing under impoverished conditions".

Here's what Wikipedia defines as a Ponzi Scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to keep the scheme going.[1]


The scheme is named after Charles Ponzi,[2] who became notorious for using the technique in 1920.[3] Ponzi did not invent the scheme (for example, Charles Dickens' 1844 novel Martin Chuzzlewit and 1857 novel Little Dorrit each described such a scheme),[4] but his operation took in so much money that it was the first to become known throughout the United States. Ponzi's original scheme was based on the arbitrage of international reply coupons for postage stamps; however, he soon diverted investors' money to make payments to earlier investors and himself.

Never said that BB was a Ponzi scheme. In prior threads I stated that I believed that it was a poorly designed, non viable business product created by a self labled "visionary".

The IPT is another story, it was as close to a Ponzi scheme as one can get. The "new investors" were those who were to continually fund most of the prize money via the $2,000.00 qualifiers in order to reach the "promised land" of $100K salaries, benefits, bonuses, and perks. Several players had already entered multiple qualifiers. Of course, the IPT's financials were much more complicated than just the qualifiers, there was to be product sales, video ppv, potential TV exposure and possibly ad revenue. KT kept several other options open as well, including a possible out and out sale. But why are we rehashing the IPT business model when the central issue of my post was actually about ethics? You know? Right and wrong.

You need not agree, but I'll say it again. If I influence others into a business venture knowing, but not revealing, it's weaknesses and the business fails, as I suspected it would, I Sir, am a weasel. Now, if I did so without knowing it's weaknesses, then I, Sir am an idiot. To compromise myself by not doing my due diligence is bad enough, but to compromise others, who may depend on me, is even worse.

Again, I don't know the facts here as far as what was known by whom, but let's see how this works out and who takes responsibility for what.

J

 

[JB Cases]

Never said that BB was a Ponzi scheme. In prior threads I stated that I believed that it was a poorly designed, non viable business product created by a self labled "visionary".

The IPT is another story, it was as close to a Ponzi scheme as one can get. The "new investors" were those who were to continually fund most of the prize money via the $2,000.00 qualifiers in order to reach the "promised land" of $100K salaries, benefits, bonuses, and perks. Several players had already entered multiple qualifiers. Of course, the IPT's financials were much more complicated than just the qualifiers, there was to be product sales, video ppv, potential TV exposure and possibly ad revenue. KT kept several other options open as well, including a possible out and out sale. But why are we rehashing the IPT business model when the central issue of my post was actually about ethics? You know? Right and wrong.

You need not agree, but I'll say it again. If I influence others into a business venture knowing, but not revealing, it's weaknesses and the business fails, as I suspected it would, I Sir, am a weasel. Now, if I did so without knowing it's weaknesses, then I, Sir am an idiot. To compromise myself by not doing my due diligence is bad enough, but to compromise others, who may depend on me, is even worse.

Again, I don't know the facts here as far as what was known by whom, but let's see how this works out and who takes responsibility for what.

J

The math was done on the IPT qualifiers and the fact of it is that the numbers taken in on qualifiers in the first year would not have covered even half of one tournament.

As for Bonus Ball, I don't see this as a scam in any way shape or form. To me it's more of an investment that ran out of money. Honestly if it never comes back then who is the biggest loser here?

Larry Chiborak is because he most certainly put the most money into it.

I don't know what all the behind the scenes stuff was, don't know what promises were made, don't know all the back and forth and backbiting. I know that my friend Mark is highly pissed and he LOVES pool more than just about anyone I know.

But even with all that the biggest financial loser at this point has got to be Larry. What are the pros out? Couple thousand each, maybe up to 10k in back pay? What is Larry out? Hundreds of thousands, couple million?

How about having a little sympathy for a guy who has been pushing a dream for a decade and finally goes for it to the no-going-back degree and who just runs out of money? I mean to me there has got to be some credit for trying here.

As for the players and whether they will ever get paid? Well, if you have never been stiffed in pool then you are not a pool player. That's just part of life as a player, as Ronnie Wiseman says, "everything is funny when you're betting big money."

And so it is. Champagne and caviar when the money is flowing and beans and rice when it's turned off.

Welcome to Life 101.

 

[jpparmentier]

How about having a little sympathy for a guy who has been pushing a dream for a decade and finally goes for it to the no-going-back degree and who just runs out of money? I mean to me there has got to be some credit for trying here.

How about having a little memory, just a few months ago when we had these threads about calendar issues, and BB representatives explained how it was going to change the face of the earth by providing solid payments to the pro players?

- Remember Greg had a lot of pros missing from the Southern Classic.

- Remember Badi had less than 100 players to his $75K added Ultimate 10-Ball.

- Remember Mark has warned everybody about late fees for his events (as he does each year), yet there was a lot of posts about players who "should be in", or late fees "hurting the pros".


- Bonus Ball has played 6 weeks, paid 3 of them, out of 22 announced.



There is no sympathy to have for somebody stepping in an industry the way they did, No business starts the cocky way they did then stops 1/4 of the way in saying "oops, sorry, we're going to have to take a break".



As JCIN stated, I hope people do not forget what happened for the last few months. Apparently it's not the case

 

[JB Cases]

How about having a little memory, just a few months ago when we had these threads about calendar issues, and BB representatives explained how it was going to change the face of the earth by providing solid payments to the pro players?

- Remember Greg had a lot of pros missing from the Southern Classic.

- Remember Badi had less than 100 players to his $75K added Ultimate 10-Ball.

- Remember Mark has warned everybody about late fees for his events (as he does each year), yet there was a lot of posts about players who "should be in", or late fees "hurting the pros".


- Bonus Ball has played 6 weeks, paid 3 of them, out of 22 announced.



There is no sympathy to have for somebody stepping in an industry the way they did, No business starts the cocky way they did then stops 1/4 of the way in saying "oops, sorry, we're going to have to take a break".



As JCIN stated, I hope people do not forget what happened for the last few months. Apparently it's not the case

I have a GREAT memory. Darren Appleton posted a very good treatise on WHY the tournament was not affected. For the record there were a lot of pros also not present at those events who are NOT part of BB so what evil entity caused them to skip it?

Mark's late fees have nothing to do with BB. Only Rodney made a comment on FB about it - had ZERO to do with BB and Larry.

How about you put up more than a million of your own money to do something and THEN when you run out of money we will vilify you to no end.

If I lived in the USA I'd love to make a million dollar bet that I could have any tournament FULL with PAID entries a full month before the event started if I knew a year in advance that I would be holding the event. Bonus Ball is not the excuse why The Utlimate 10 Ball did not fill up. And even if it were so what? That's called competition, everyone in business has to deal with it. Are my cue case competitors evil because they make cases and are trying to win customers over me?

Is Simonis evil because they want to sell more cloth than SuperPro?

I can't speak to whatever hasn't been made public but to me the idea that BB should be made the scapegoat for what ultimately ended up being just a FEW players missing the Ultimate Ten Ball is a red herring. Whose responsibility is it to get people to sign up for a tournament? The promoter or someone else?

 

[Fatboy]

JA sent me a txt said he was busy, "very busy" and he would call me later tonight. He didnt call which is unusual, i'm certain he is trying to work a deal with pool's best interest in mind.

I know JA is smart enough to realize the implications of what has happened, and he will do his best to solve things within his abilities using all his resources and contacts.

Mike was paid monster $$$ from KT, there is no comparison between the 2 things at all.

its 1240am in LA 340am in NY, just got off the phone with JA, he has to play 2 matches tomaro.

He has been in meetings, emails, conference calls etc since he got back from the World Games.

We talked about his kids and personal stuff, most of the time.

Thats all I can say, he wasnt negative or depressed at all, he was very happy. And confident in the future. Because of confidentiality agreements he signed, he couldnt tell me much and i didnt press it, we are friends and to me thats more important than anything, and his daughter is my God Daughter, that's #1.

I can surmise that things are good based on how he sounded, he was VERY tired, soft spoken. And burned out talking about the pool biz.

When I said I heard something I said I'd post it, I tool him what I said here, he read it-or some of it. He knows i'm posting this(i think I told him I was going to-i'm zzz myself)


What does the future have instore? IDK and what I do know(very little) I cant say-but he didnt sound down, I know him VERY well and being a telemarketer i can read people over the phone like he plays pool. So I'm sure things will work out, I dont thing it will just pick up where it left off-thats my guess.

I am going to ask him if I can say more, i dont know much more cause he cant tell me. And I respect his boundary's as he does mine, so please respect mine.

And I agree with JCIN the people who paid for a season need to be refunded, players need to be made whole, and then talk about the future. Perhaps they did-I honest to God dont know.

Thats what I have, sorry if I disappointed anyone, i'm a bit disappointed myself. please dont shoot the messenger, I have been honest and forth coming with information the best I could.

i'm rambling and need to zZZzzzZZZzzzzZZ


sincerely
Eric

 

[Fatboy]

How about having a little memory, just a few months ago when we had these threads about calendar issues, and BB representatives explained how it was going to change the face of the earth by providing solid payments to the pro players?

- Remember Greg had a lot of pros missing from the Southern Classic.

- Remember Badi had less than 100 players to his $75K added Ultimate 10-Ball.

- Remember Mark has warned everybody about late fees for his events (as he does each year), yet there was a lot of posts about players who "should be in", or late fees "hurting the pros".


- Bonus Ball has played 6 weeks, paid 3 of them, out of 22 announced.



There is no sympathy to have for somebody stepping in an industry the way they did, No business starts the cocky way they did then stops 1/4 of the way in saying "oops, sorry, we're going to have to take a break".



As JCIN stated, I hope people do not forget what happened for the last few months. Apparently it's not the case

the players took it harder that Greg, Mark or Badi. They had a few bad events and will bounce back-thats biz, things happen. Still bad but they will be just fine, they are all smart guys,

JCIN is right the ppl who paid for PPV got screwed thus far, if they have $$ for rent they have $$$ for refunds-should be the customers choice-the people who bought season passes.


Even worse is what happened to the players(thus far) they went all in and dont have the resources that the biz man do. So I feel worse for them than the industry people. They upset their lifes, moved, lost piles on plane tickets with fales starts, didnt get paid for their work, one guy needed his final check to buy airfare home-and didnt get it(far as I know-that was last week). they really got hosed and dont have the resources to recover as easy. pool as a job is tuff as it gets, insult to injury. Someone is accountable.,

Its been bad for everyone, no question about it.

is it FUBAR? I dont know, it will sure take lots of $$ and other intangleble things to earn the goodwill they had, they screwed up bad IMO. Not the players-they did their job's and got the worst of it.

If anyone made $$ here, and I 75% dont think anyone did except the landlord, it's the worst biz plan in any biz i seen in my life. I seen worse but they never came out of the ground. 25% of me thinks it could be something else-no matter what the players got the worst of it.

 

[Fatboy]

it's 120 am, I kept my word, when i heard anything(and i know it was not much-if anything) I'd post it. I'm disappointed it wasn't more.

On the bright side, it wasnt negative, and if it was or had a negative undertone, i'd say so. And that was not the case. So hopefully it works out.

Like I have said in other posts i dont expect it to pick up where it left off, that was such a bad idea-nobody would fund that. there are ways it could work, and hopefully they work with the industry this time. I dont think is was arrogance as much as ignorance or a blend of the 2-it dont matter its behind us now.


"We need to look for solutions to problems not dwell on the problem itself" <----thats a olde telemarketing line and applies to life in gerneral when shit is bad, i should have said it 2 months ago, juswt popped into my head, i still dream about pitching often, I miss pitching, i was good at it and loved it. Late at night the lines just come to me, funny how that works.

125am Gn:boring2::boring2::boring2::boring2:

 

[Fatboy]

with a few exceptions the people in the pool biz are not very astute biz people, Greg Sulivan is sharp and Mark Griffen is smart. there are others but very few and they cause more harm than good.


making ego based biz decisions is one of the most direct roads to failure with the fewest stop signes(another old pitch line) LOL i'm on a roll.

 

[Fatboy]

"a whipped dog is a wiser dog" another pitch line, problem in pool is some people get whipped and dont learn.

 

[Fatboy]

The saddest line:

"Desperate people do desperate things" <-----can you blame them

 

[Fatboy]

"Misery loves company" Nuff said,

 

[JAM]

Didn't Kevin put several million into the players pockets? I know the first tournament went well, I was there, and the BCA "Hall of Famers" were guaranteed 25k apiece if memory serves me correctly. There was at least a million in prize money in total for that one event.

It was $30,000 that the BCA Hall of Famers pocketed, not 25K. They also got 2 byes in the tournament. Efren with two byes won the tournament, defeating Mike Sigel in the finals for $100,000.

All other players received $6,000 just for showing up.

Bustamante said it was the most money he had ever received in his life at a pool tournament, and he came in third, pocketing $80,000.

As far as the IPT and Kevin Trudeau, my opinions are quite different than the majority on this forum.

With BB, reading the untruths written ad nauseum on this forum by the BB minions who are AzB-ers, it is a little disconcerting. It is one thing to be a supporter of BB, but it's another to disseminate untruths to the public.

As far as Archer goes, he is in the same position as Allen Hopkins once was decades ago as far as being a part of an organizational entity in the pool world. To this day, there are some who are still angry at Hopkins for his involvement in a pool entity that went south. Me personally, I love Allen Hopkins for what he's done for pool in my lifetime. I think he's a good man who has pool players' interests in mind at all times. Archer may be remembered in the future for his involvement with Dragon Productions (Charlie Williams), UPA ( Charlie Williams), ABP, and Bonus Ball, but I do believe he is a genuinely good person with a strong faith and family values. I've met him several times, and he's been nothing but kind and nice in my presence. :smile:

The only problem I see with Johnny, if you can call it a problem, is that he has a foundation to go back to; whereas, the players he is representing or leading do not. Therein lies the rub.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. American professional pool today is a stinking fish in the sea of world pool. You might say that in 2013, American professional pool is now circling the drain. :frown:

Long live the pool leagues!