Are some people not meant to play the game?

Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
An old friend I'd not seen in about 5 years was at the pool hall about 5 months ago when I was playing a match. He never showed any interest in pool so I was suprised to see him there. He said he joined a pool league here and wanted to get some pactice in.

afterwards we played for an hour or two and he was awful. A 2 ball run in 8 ball was beyond his ability. He was getting frustrated and asked if I could teach him a few things. Even though the team he was playing for were just some guys playing for fun, he's competative and wanted to atleast pot 3 or 4 in a row.

Over the past 5 years we've been playing 2 or 3 times a week. I started out simple. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals! His stance and stroke were pretty decent after a while so then I moved onto aiming. Ghost ball was the first method I tried teaching him. He just couldn't do it. He said he just couldn't see the imaginary ball. So then I moved onto fractional aiming. Simple stuff like where the ball goes after 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 ball hits. Little more success in terms of consistently making a ball. Then as the fractions became more complex he struggled so I asked him to use 1/4 and 1/2 ball hits as a starter and move your head left or right until it looked right. Nope, still couldn't visualise it. He asked me how I aim and it confused him no end.

So this is where we are today. 5 months, unable to run 3 balls in 8 ball, not even got past centre ball hits. If he was paying me I'd give him his money back! Any advice?

I've come to the conclusion that some people just weren't meant to play.
 
im in the same process with my girl. Does he actually do what you tell him to do? Mine doesn't lol and I think that's the problem
 
Pidge said:
... So this is where we are today. 5 months, unable to run 3 balls in 8 ball, not even got past centre ball hits. If he was paying me I'd give him his money back! Any advice?

I've come to the conclusion that some people just weren't meant to play.
Click to expand...
There are some who struggle a lot more.

Try having him do progressive practice. ("bob jewett progressive practice" into google will get you a free handout and YouTube videos.) Don't have him do anything as hard as in the diagrams. Put a coin about two feet from a pocket, put the cue ball by the coin, and put an object ball half way between the cue ball and the pocket. Move the coin a few inches each time as described in the handout. Maybe use a little angle. Vary the angle.

The nice thing about progressive practice is that the difficulty of the shot adjusts automatically to the skill of the player.

Don't make things complicated, yet. If you want to explain positioning keep it at the level of "hit this one a little harder" and "just hard enough to get to the pocket and you should have a nice shot on the five" unless the shot is dead simple and then maybe a little side can be introduced.
 
Some kids can learn from their parents and some needs outside coaching. It's not that you don't know what your doing, it's just that some kids don't learn well from listening to their authoritative figure.

And then there are some who will only reach a certain level in the game no matter who is teaching them. Nothing wrong with that either.
 
Cheers Bob!

I've introduced some progressive practice but not a great deal. If I place a ball in the ghost ball position, ask him to aim for it, then removed it he makes the ball all day long. Stroke must be there, so it comes down to him not seeing the shot correctly.

I feel bad for him. He does as I tell him, well, as I ask of him and gets frustrated because he can't do it.
 
Pidge said:
Cheers Bob!

I've introduced some progressive practice but not a great deal. If I place a ball in the ghost ball position, ask him to aim for it, then removed it he makes the ball all day long. Stroke must be there, so it comes down to him not seeing the shot correctly.

I feel bad for him. He does as I tell him, well, as I ask of him and gets frustrated because he can't do it.
Click to expand...

This is good advice...I've seen that work well with beginners that can't visualize the connection between the CB and OB. In most cases, the more you try and give a beginner a "system" for aiming, the harder it is for them; they get lost in trying to do what you're telling them instead of what THEY are seeing. Sometimes it's best to step back and just show them the contact point on the OB and tell them to side-swipe that spot with the CB. That usually works. Each player has to find his/her own way of visualizing the connection, especially when starting out. Most folks, left to their own devices will figure it out pretty quickly....
 
Pidge,

I've told this story before so I will try to condense it.

After work one afternoon I was meeting an older gentleman that I was helping at Buffalo's. (he later became my friend)

He shows up with his neighbor who in mentally challenged. I'm thinking to myself, 'what is he thinking. Now what are we going to do'. Anyway he says that he really just wants to play today.

So, I beat him a couple of games then tell him that I'm going to let his neighbor play him but that I am going to coach his neighbor. I'm sure he was thinking that he would win easily.

I coached his neighbor to beat him 2 games when he got a bit upset & quit.

His neighbor did EXACTLY whatever I told him to do including english & speed.

I did it to show him that it is just as much about the knowledge of what & how to do it than it is about any great cue skill.

I know that sounds a bit crazy but even a mentally challenged man can follow directions if they are given simply enough & with a bit of visual aids.

Best,
Rick
 
Pidge said:
An old friend I'd not seen in about 5 years was at the pool hall about 5 months ago when I was playing a match. He never showed any interest in pool so I was suprised to see him there. He said he joined a pool league here and wanted to get some pactice in.

afterwards we played for an hour or two and he was awful. A 2 ball run in 8 ball was beyond his ability. He was getting frustrated and asked if I could teach him a few things. Even though the team he was playing for were just some guys playing for fun, he's competative and wanted to atleast pot 3 or 4 in a row.

Over the past 5 years we've been playing 2 or 3 times a week. I started out simple. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals! His stance and stroke were pretty decent after a while so then I moved onto aiming. Ghost ball was the first method I tried teaching him. He just couldn't do it. He said he just couldn't see the imaginary ball. So then I moved onto fractional aiming. Simple stuff like where the ball goes after 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 ball hits. Little more success in terms of consistently making a ball. Then as the fractions became more complex he struggled so I asked him to use 1/4 and 1/2 ball hits as a starter and move your head left or right until it looked right. Nope, still couldn't visualise it. He asked me how I aim and it confused him no end.

So this is where we are today. 5 months, unable to run 3 balls in 8 ball, not even got past centre ball hits. If he was paying me I'd give him his money back! Any advice?

I've come to the conclusion that some people just weren't meant to play.
Click to expand...
Pool is not very hard to play at an average level if someone cares to try. Does he play any other sports at any higher level? Maybe he just could care less.
 
Pidge said:
Cheers Bob!

I've introduced some progressive practice but not a great deal. If I place a ball in the ghost ball position, ask him to aim for it, then removed it he makes the ball all day long. Stroke must be there, so it comes down to him not seeing the shot correctly.
Click to expand...
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You're on the right track, but try adding this one *very important* extra step that's missing in your approach:

Before placing a ball in the ghost position, ask your student to align himself, while in a standing position, on what he thinks is the correct path the CB should travel, then get down on the shot ready to pump pre-delivery rehearsal strokes then freeze his stick before any stroking.

NOW is when you place a ball in the ghost ball position. By comparing his stick alignment to the actual required path, he and you both instantly have a visual representation of the correction factor that must take place.

By doing this process with you (then in later sessions with any available "ghost ball placer") for a great number and variety of cut shots, the student, without even thinking about it, absorbs the continual and concretely evident path correction feedback, and successfully gets ever-closer to the ideal delivery paths to the OB. He is now, by much repetition, learning "to see the shot."

I've had great success with this approach to helping the student to virtually automatically align and deliver to the ideal OB contact point. Eventually the student even begins to automatically, and quite unconsciously allow for cling-induced throw, as we all do.

Arnaldo
 
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Did you determine which is his dominant eye? Perhaps that is an issue with him, perhaps not. But worth a try IMHO.
 
Is this him?

Untitled-1.jpg

Seriously, I think for some people they should just try something else. He seem like one of those people. More power to him that he has lasted this long.
 
my answer is yes

i know some hopeless players, they have been practising for years and years, drills, practise, competitions - still can't run a rack.
 
#1 thing to figure out:

• Is he missing because he picked the right line of aim, but can't deliver the cue ball there?
• Or is he missing because he can't find the right line of aim, but can at least send the cue ball straight?

99% of the time it's the first issue. Which means knowing the contact point, ghost ball, or fraction
is useless. You must be able to send the cue ball where you aim the stick.

My ultra-beginner practice method for this is short, easy stop shots into the side pocket.
I emphasize that making it is good, but having the cue ball not move is even better.
By trying a stop shot they will know if they hit off center on the cue ball.
It will also show how unintended spin can wreck the shot.
Make them repeat this until they can reliably sink a dinky 2 foot shot (cue ball center table,
OB halfway between it and and the pocket) without the cue ball drifting sideways or spinning.

Do not move on to anything else until they can do this.

If they can't send the cue ball a short distance (about a foot in this case) without steering it
or spinning it, their fundamentals just aren't good enough to make any sort of cut shot reliably.
If you can at least get them to make a 1 foot straight in stop shot, you know they're good for 1 ball
with ball in hand.
 
Congrats to you Pidge for having the patience to keep teaching him!

Aiming systems are an area where people just can't accept that everyone learns differently. What makes perfect sense to one person is gibberish to another...probably because of differences in how their minds process spatial information.

You might want to try this one with him. When I first posted it folks said it was Jimmy Ried's Equal Overlap system. It works best when you use a 1-ball with the numerals in a direct line to the pocket. That way as you move from step 1) to step 2) he can see how the angle/overlap changes. (however, this only works for shots thinner than 1/2-ball hit).

equaldistanceaimingdiag.jpg


Using the Equal Overlap method you're not trying to memorize/guess fractionals, etc. You simply rotate around the CB (walk from 1) to 2)) until overlap A and B are the same.

Maybe it will make visual sense to him, maybe not. I guess there's a possibility that his spatial sense is so weak/screwed-up that nothing will work. Some people just can't dance, and no amount of lessons changes that.
 
bdorman,

Is your name Steve?

That is what I gravitated to when I was 13 years old. I thought I had invented it. Jimmy Reid uses specific fractions. I never ever have thought of a number fraction ever.

I wish you would remove the reference to the ghost ball though. It never comes into mind when using this as I think & feel that it should be used.

It's a very good representation from that point of view but it would even be better if seen more in a 3D fashion from behind the cue ball too.

It works very well if one can see & feel it.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
bdorman said:
Congrats to you Pidge for having the patience to keep teaching him!

Aiming systems are an area where people just can't accept that everyone learns differently. What makes perfect sense to one person is gibberish to another...probably because of differences in how their minds process spatial information.

You might want to try this one with him. When I first posted it folks said it was Jimmy Ried's Equal Overlap system. It works best when you use a 1-ball with the numerals in a direct line to the pocket. That way as you move from step 1) to step 2) he can see how the angle/overlap changes. (however, this only works for shots thinner than 1/2-ball hit).

equaldistanceaimingdiag.jpg


Using the Equal Overlap method you're not trying to memorize/guess fractionals, etc. You simply rotate around the CB (walk from 1) to 2)) until overlap A and B are the same.

Maybe it will make visual sense to him, maybe not. I guess there's a possibility that his spatial sense is so weak/screwed-up that nothing will work. Some people just can't dance, and no amount of lessons changes that.
Click to expand...

The CB center at contact point is easy to find, if you find the 90 degree carom point off the OB first.
The carom line off the OB will be at the contact point. A 90 degree tangent from the OB/pocket line.
 
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Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back. Originally I put in the reference to Ghost Ball to explain that I could never get the hang of Ghost Ball because of the imaginary point you're supposed to see/imagine.

But you're right, it's probably confusing to most people...giving them the idea that I'm trying to get them to use Equal Overlap AND Ghost Ball.

(Nope, I'm a Bob, not a Steve)
 
bdorman said:
Hi Rick,

Nice to see you back. Originally I put in the reference to Ghost Ball to explain that I could never get the hang of Ghost Ball because of the imaginary point you're supposed to see/imagine.

But you're right, it's probably confusing to most people...giving them the idea that I'm trying to get them to use Equal Overlap AND Ghost Ball.

(Nope, I'm a Bob, not a Steve)
Click to expand...

Bob,

Thanks.

Sorry about that. I had a feeling I was wrong. I'm kind of bad with names. It's probably my worst short coming.

Best to Y'a,
Rick
 
pogmothoin said:
Did you determine which is his dominant eye? Perhaps that is an issue with him, perhaps not. But worth a try IMHO.
Click to expand...

Maybe a few straight in stop shots would help. Angled shots are good but IMO there will
be more feedback hitting straight in shots. Off center OB hits will send the CB sideways.
 
bdorman said:
Congrats to you Pidge for having the patience to keep teaching him!

Aiming systems are an area where people just can't accept that everyone learns differently. What makes perfect sense to one person is gibberish to another...probably because of differences in how their minds process spatial information.

You might want to try this one with him. When I first posted it folks said it was Jimmy Ried's Equal Overlap system. It works best when you use a 1-ball with the numerals in a direct line to the pocket. That way as you move from step 1) to step 2) he can see how the angle/overlap changes. (however, this only works for shots thinner than 1/2-ball hit).

equaldistanceaimingdiag.jpg


Using the Equal Overlap method you're not trying to memorize/guess fractionals, etc. You simply rotate around the CB (walk from 1) to 2)) until overlap A and B are the same.

Maybe it will make visual sense to him, maybe not. I guess there's a possibility that his spatial sense is so weak/screwed-up that nothing will work. Some people just can't dance, and no amount of lessons changes that.
Click to expand...
Cheers for that.

That is exactly how I aim if I pay enough concious attention to it. Started out with parallel aiming and it evolved into Jimmy Reids equal overlap without knowing. The guy in question found it easy when it was a 1/2 ball and 1/4 ball over lap. But it fell apart when it wasn't a straight forward overlap when he couldn't use the edge of the CB to determine a straight line. I've tried asking him to draw a line from pocket to OB then finding the contact point. Then when you draw a line from that contact point to the same point on the opposite side of the CB and parallel shift accross. I've used chalk and sticky spots on the table and he does it with ease...remove the lines and he can't do it enough to make 5 out of 10 medium distance cut shots.

To those asking if his fundamentals are correct...they are. If I physically put him in position he would make any shot. He can't get himself into the position because he sees the shot wrong.

I'm going to try get him to look at the CB then OB then pocket, and keep looking at the pocket when getting down to the CB. It works for me on shots to the right that I deem very difficult. But I guess that's my subconcious getting me into the right position; he hasn't potted enough balls yet to train his subconcious mind. May work, probably won't. Worth a try though.
 
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