Is a shot clock on the Us Open tv table fair?

N

NYC cue dude

Banned
Yesterday, the US open instituted a 40 second shot clock on the TV table. This was done 2 days into an already started event. And, it's only being used on the TV table. No shot clock on the other 13 remaining tables. Is this fair? Personally, I don't think so. It should be an all or nothing proposition. I just can't agree with the way this has been handled. During the Wang Can/Yukio match, the Japanese former world 9 ball champion rushed through 2 games towards the end of the match where the clock had a part in those unforced errors. Pretty sad to see 2 competitors subject to rules the rest of the field is exempt from.
 
The shot clock should have been used at the beginning of the event and not introduced in the middle of a tournament in progress.

That said, when one side of the chart is held up because of a 3-hour match, as an example, it holds up other matches from beginning.

Speaking as a tournament director, this is a bad, bad situation. You then have players screaming at you, why they have to wait so long for their match. Meanwhile, it's because of players taking too long for their shots. My friend Danny Basavich comes to mind, and what's strange is I've seen Danny on a shot clock, play fast, and he ran a six-pack. Go figure. :p
 
NYC cue dude said:
Yesterday, the US open instituted a 40 second shot clock on the TV table. This was done 2 days into an already started event. And, it's only being used on the TV table. No shot clock on the other 13 remaining tables. Is this fair? Personally, I don't think so. It should be an all or nothing proposition. I just can't agree with the way this has been handled. During the Wang Can/Yukio match, the Japanese former world 9 ball champion rushed through 2 games towards the end of the match where the clock had a part in those unforced errors. Pretty sad to see 2 competitors subject to rules the rest of the field is exempt from.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but I can see why they only use it on TV table.
I think one of the reasons to use shot clock on tv table is to make sure that "advertised matches" go according to schedule.
The one problem with having shot clock on every table is that who is going to keep track of it ?
One idea would be to keep a time limit on the match, lets just say every match has to be done with in 2 hours. If it's not then the player who is ahead wins it. If it is hill-hill then only one more game is allowed to break the tie.
 
Big mistake not to have used it from the start, but the matches that will decide the US Open are yet to be played, and I applaud them for correcting the mistake.

Absence of the shot clock is extremely unfair to paying viewers, who ought to be able to rely on the stated match schedule.

Personally, I'd prefer a thirty second clock. Forty seconds is an eternity that will still permit a slow pace. Any player that can't fade a forty second shot clock with one extension per rack needs to take a NoDoz.
 
NYC cue dude said:
Yesterday, the US open instituted a 40 second shot clock on the TV table. This was done 2 days into an already started event. And, it's only being used on the TV table. No shot clock on the other 13 remaining tables. Is this fair? Personally, I don't think so. It should be an all or nothing proposition. I just can't agree with the way this has been handled. During the Wang Can/Yukio match, the Japanese former world 9 ball champion rushed through 2 games towards the end of the match where the clock had a part in those unforced errors. Pretty sad to see 2 competitors subject to rules the rest of the field is exempt from.
Click to expand...

I agree that's probably handled wrong. Personally, I think they should have instituted it at the very beginning because most of these pros play stupidly slow. 40 secs is a long time to get a shot off in 9ball. If you have to kick and take extra time, you should get an extension. Most of these guys need to learn how to pick it up a notch speed-wise.

Learn how to play well, faster.
 
prad said:
I agree with you, but I can see why they only use it on TV table.
I think one of the reasons to use shot clock on tv table is to make sure that "advertised matches" go according to schedule.
The one problem with having shot clock on every table is that who is going to keep track of it ?
One idea would be to keep a time limit on the match, lets just say every match has to be done with in 2 hours. If it's not then the player who is ahead wins it. If it is hill-hill then only one more game is allowed to break the tie.
Click to expand...

I agree something needs to be done, but a time limit on the match as a whole could end up penalizing a player who is not guilty of playing slow if the opponent is extremly slow. I think a time clock like they use in chess matches would be good. Personally I have absolutely why pros today feel they need to take SO much time. Granted I am no pro, but I can look at a table and know what I need to do to get out or whatever. Execution is usually the problem. I can understand wanting to clear your head or what not, but it really is rediculous. I'm a big fan of billiards but I can't stand to watch matches anymore because of such slow play.
 
Why would it ever take someone longer than 40 seconds to shoot in a game of 9 ball? 40 seconds is a long time.

If a 40 second shot clock is throwing some of these pros off then they need to speed things up.

Historically, it seems like there used to be different rhythms used by players depending on the game they were playing. 14.1 and one-pocket where more methodical. 8 Ball was even slow at the beginning of the rack but then the pros would run right through the rack. 9 Ball was always fast. They didn't need a shot clock.

Anymore, it seems like many players only have one speed and unfortunately for us, it's the one-pocket speed and it has only gotten worse in the past few years. I think the short races have something to do with it, but still...

Hurry up and shoot already.
 
Scherf said:
I agree something needs to be done, but a time limit on the match as a whole could end up penalizing a player who is not guilty of playing slow if the opponent is extremly slow. I think a time clock like they use in chess matches would be good. Personally I have absolutely why pros today feel they need to take SO much time. Granted I am no pro, but I can look at a table and know what I need to do to get out or whatever. Execution is usually the problem. I can understand wanting to clear your head or what not, but it really is rediculous. I'm a big fan of billiards but I can't stand to watch matches anymore because of such slow play.
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Ok, you bring up a good point. I like the "chess clock" idea better.
I don't like slow players either, but I think they can't help it. It's like being slow is part of their pre-shot routine. They are just slow by nature and it has nothing to do with how good or bad they play. Now, I know some players can play at normal speed but decide to slow down a lot when there is a lot of pressure, cuz they think somehow its going to help him. At one time I watched two top level players play bar box 8 ball, race to 5 that took about 4 freaking hours.
 
prad said:
Ok, you bring up a good point. I like the "chess clock" idea better.
I don't like slow players either, but I think they can't help it. It's like being slow is part of their pre-shot routine. They are just slow by nature and it has nothing to do with how good or bad they play. Now, I know some players can play at normal speed but decide to slow down a lot when there is a lot of pressure, cuz they think somehow its going to help him. At one time I watched two top level players play bar box 8 ball, race to 5 that took about 4 freaking hours.
Click to expand...

That would kill me...
 
JAM said:
The shot clock should have been used at the beginning of the event and not introduced in the middle of a tournament in progress.

That said, when one side of the chart is held up because of a 3-hour match, as an example, it holds up other matches from beginning.

Speaking as a tournament director, this is a bad, bad situation. You then have players screaming at you, why they have to wait so long for their match. Meanwhile, it's because of players taking too long for their shots. My friend Danny Basavich comes to mind, and what's strange is I've seen Danny on a shot clock, play fast, and he ran a six-pack. Go figure. :p
Click to expand...

:) Danny's stall never worked on me.
I played him 3 times and beat him 3 times.
First time I met him was at Zuglans room in Rotterdam NY.
It was the Joss Tour Finals of 2000.
Danny suffered 2 losses to me in the Hot Seat match and the Finals.
Note* Danny was slim at the time !

Then I played him in Connecticut a few years later.
Close match, I edged him out.
After the match Danny said he was very nervous playing me even though it was only the first round at a Joss event.
The demons from those first defeats took a toll.
I was having fun watching Danny dance around and getting powder all over.
After the match.
We talked and laughed about all of it.
Like we were old pals.

:groucho:
 
Please take into consideration that the TV matches are being sold to overseas markets and having players stare at shots for a minute or more is terrible TV. Fans want to see pool, not racking, not guys getting up and down on shots, etc.
 
Part of me wants to argue that if you have this huge major weeklong tournament, you must be flexible.
You have to be willing to adjust things in the middle of the event, if they're clearly a problem.
Whether it's length of the matches, spectator seating, the racks, whatever.

You can't tell players "just suffer through it for a whole week".
You have to be willing to fix problems mid-tournament and not get too hung up on "but it's not consistent!"

On the other hand...

- Shot clock on just one table doesn't solve the slow play problem.
- It's not like this is their very first US Open and they couldn't possibly have seen this coming.

The time allowed is long enough that it's not super unfair to people who get drawn for the TV table.
It's not like they're forced to play speed pool while the rest of the world plays 9 ball.
But I don't like that the shot clock is only being implemented so they can keep streamers happy
and not for the sake of the competitors.
 
And it's gone

Just turned on the stream and the shot clock is not being utilized. I'm going to guess that streaming Charlie Williams yesterday set them back and they instituted the clock to right the ship. Maybe if the players stay on schedule we won't see it anymore. But, I expect that it should be fair for everyone. All or nothing, IMO.
 
prad said:
One idea would be to keep a time limit on the match, lets just say every match has to be done with in 2 hours. If it's not then the player who is ahead wins it. If it is hill-hill then only one more game is allowed to break the tie.
Click to expand...

I would win the first game in 10 minutes and then take 1 hour and 50 minutes trying to figure out my first shot of the 2nd rack. :D
 
NYC cue dude said:
That Japanese champ sure has something to gripe about. His match with Wang Can sure hinged on that clock. I think the ortmann peach would've been different too.
Click to expand...

Some of the matches sure do go slow. Charlie Williams v. Eric Durbin seem to be at a standstill. :o

And M. Wong must be the slowest player in the event.
 
On stream a couple days ago, they said the shot clock was not being used by Accu-Stats because Barry Behrman wouldn't pay for it. The person who keeps time must get paid (rather than using a volunteer).

Then it was instituted beginning with the 4:00 match on Wednesday (Williams vs. Nevel). It was not used for the first streamed match today, but it looks like it is back for the match about to begin (Deuel vs. Morris). Perhaps the time keeper just wasn't available for Souquet vs. Pike today.
 
I believe the same rules should apply to the TV table as any other match in the event. It's already a different pressure for players but to have different rules too? No good.

If they want to alter the matches for TV production they should hire a video editor.

Ray
 
Is part of the reason because the match is being recorded for ESPN by accustats?

That's the reason I was given during the 1P-Invitational when I asked for fewer shots of the players faces and more overhead of the tables...

In my opinion these things should be disclosed before you sell PPV because I doubt many people knew that the matches were shot in a form where it would be more appealing to ESPN viewers.
 
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