Small turnaround at US open? where are all pool pros?

[336Robin]

Also

Well said. Good post!

Jam,
Also to address all parts of the world of pool. Id like to see tables enough that people were able to play all night if they wanted to right there at the venue in a controlled environment with no outside problems coming in or resulting from it. Possibly in another room all together and it doesn't have to be about Pool League Pool or tournaments. Of course they might have to put up a large enough security deposit so as to guarantee that no trouble is caused. If you act out, you lose your deposit. No questions asked.

People go to events and love what they see, then they need to be able to play. Its a very simple thing. Let people play the game they love, then they will love it. Just my opinion.

 

[MississaugaFats]

:smile::smile:
BUMP! BUMP!!

 

[peteypooldude]

Everybody is entitled to opinions. Even me.

What JCIN said is pretty accurate. And you are wrong. It is a FACT that I have changed my whole outlook on professional pool and pool players. BB was a major part of that decision. The attitude of the 'pro' players is a major part of that decision.

It s not a convenient scapegoat. I am just not going to put up with the arrogance and attitudes of so many of the 'pro' players. I will be doing some kind of invitational events - with an international field (maybe 16 players or so).

I will not subject me or my staff to spend close to $90,000 (for the 3 events) and listen to the *****ing BEFORE the event because we charge registration and late fees. And then listen to Rodney Morris, who won $15,000, declare he doesn't like me and similar nonsense. It's all rather simple, if I do invitational events, I can deal with the players I feel are respectful of the game.

I can only say that the players have no one but themselves to blame. There are about a dozen US players that will NOT be playing in any more of my events. As others have said, they are not a draw, they are very high maintenance and just not worth it.

So there you have it- and that's the truth! And I'm not giving up on pool, just giving up on some of the US pro players. And it is ONLY these players. The foreigners always behave themselves.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI

I've met all types of people in my lifetime all natured different. Some I've worked for would banish me for leaving for something I thought might better my future.Me trying to break the cycle of struggling. I've had a few that said.... I don't blame you for trying to better yourself and hire me back when it didn't work like I hoped. I don't know what to think about it. I guess it's just how one wants to be remembered .... Successful or not
There's a lot of people such as JCIN who are way smarter than I am about things and know things I don't . I may be looking at it wrong and it wouldn't be the 1st time

 

[joelpope]

Maybe I missed the thread but where are all the players who did not come to US Open?
is there another big even is going on or something. For example I only see 2 guys from Philippines, one Chinese player and so many buys in the first round

Same place all the fans are... Somewhere else

After 38 years of growing nonsense nobody can fade Barry "and his beautiful daughter Shannon" anymore.

 

[joelpope]

I counted the Souther Classic as one and now that I think of it it may not have been a points event I do not remember but it was a major tournament.

US Open 10 Ball and 8 Ball were points events. They will not be back.

Ultimate 10 Ball was a points event will not be returning.

Thats four large added money open events gone.

Those four events all had BB scheduling and the noise and hassle that went along with it as a factor in deciding not to go again in 2014. BB will say they have no impact but I know that is not the case. Some won't believe me and thats fine I don't really care.

Last I heard Turning Stone will be down to one event this year due to some remodeling at the casino. Maybe that changes who knows.

Bringing the total points events to the Bigfoot at DCC and one Turning Stone event. If the US Open 9 Ball is around that may make it three.

You are associating a "cause and effect" relationship where none exists

Might want to think about relocating to Washington DC where your style of thinking and attack by sound byte is valued

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's best to wish everyone the same opportunity to be healthy, happy and prosperous.

I've met all types of people in my lifetime all natured different. Some I've worked for would banish me for leaving for something I thought might better my future.Me trying to break the cycle of struggling. I've had a few that said.... I don't blame you for trying to better yourself and hire me back when it didn't work like I hoped. I don't know what to think about it. I guess it's just how one wants to be remembered .... Successful or not
There's a lot of people such as JCIN who are way smarter than I am about things and know things I don't . I may be looking at it wrong and it wouldn't be the 1st time

That's the way it works in the "real world," I've had many employees leave through my business career to pursue better opportunities and they always know they can return if things don't work out.....they have returned on a number of occasions and on others their jobs worked out. Either way, as a business owner it's best to wish everyone the same opportunity to be healthy, happy and prosperous. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[jay helfert]

Like Mark, I could easily do a 50K added event in L.A. but I don't need all the aggravation on something that I'm almost certain to lose money on. That about sums it up for me. Tunica is history and I don't know how long I will remain involved with DCC. All I hear when I'm there is whining about the state of pool. Meanwhile the Pinoys NEVER complain! They just want to know where they can play next. If they win 15K they're thrilled! In fact anything they win at pool is like a gift to them, playing the game they love. :smiling-heart:

 

[jay helfert]

In 5 years we will all look back at this and admit it was the best thing to ever happen. For things to change there MUST BE PAIN......or the appearance of it anyway....this is true in business, in relationships and in nature it's self.....pool is no exception. imho

Zen CJ here!

 

[jay helfert]

Everyone has opinions on the whole thing and that is fine, Bonus Ball did have some affect but certainly was not the cause. Personally I think if Tunica goes away it is because it was not the success that was expected of it and this past year showed that the numbers were the same as last year which had nothing to do with Bonus Ball considering majority of the players went to it. It is really easy to point the finger instead of accepting responsibility, it would be like saying negative podcast ruined Bonus Ball by influencing others which is laughable and not logical. Pro pool has been dying slowly for a good while, it is okay to admit failing at something but some find it easier to push blame on something convenient.

As for the US Open events I am sad to hear about it as I enjoy them, especially the one pocket event which to me is even better then Derby. I would not say Bonus Ball hurt or killed events but things the players chose to say and do might have hurt feelings. Sometimes people hold too much value on what others perceive them to be instead of their own perception of themselves, many times there is a difference of opinion of who you are and who people think you are. I hope pool does change for the better in 2014 and if Bonus Ball does a second season then maybe it will be condensed into a one month period which makes sense financially and also it can work around any events taking place.

Lenny the whole Bonus Ball fiasco was just one more big nail in the coffin for professional pool in this country. When legitimate promoters work so hard to create good events for the sport and they get dumped on by the players, it stings!

 

[AtLarge]

...What do you think the net loss is by just the players at the Derby City Classic, AtLarge? I remember you bringing up the "buy backs" and it was in the neighborhood of $45,000, is that correct?

I appreciate your giving me these research assignments, CJ, but the pay isn't very good.

My estimates for the 2013 DCC events, all calculated from public information, are as follows (ignoring the 14.1 Challenge, which was pretty minor financially):

$120,950 -- Entry fees for the Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball events

$46,050 -- Buy-ins for Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball

$32,000 -- Entry fees for Bigfoot 10-Ball

$199,000 -- Total of entry fees and buy-ins for those 4 events
______________________________________________

$162,125 -- Prize money for Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball

$50,000 -- Prize money for Bigfoot 10-Ball

$25,000 -- All-Around prize money to 3 players

$237,125 -- Total prize money for those 4 events
_____________________________________________

Therefore, prize money exceeded entry fees and buy-ins by $38,125.

So the overall net loss to the players was the total amount they spent on travel, lodging, food (only the excess over what they would have spent on food had they been home), and misc. expenses -- minus that $38,125. I can't put any educated number on the total, but with the number of players involved (353, 280, 277 in the 3 big events), it has to be several hundred thousand dollars.

But a big caveat to all this is that not all of the hundreds of players going to the DCC are there as professionals "on business" trying to make money. The majority of the players are not professionals and are there for other reasons -- entertainment/vacation, personal challenge, personal development, etc. If you singled out just the "pros at work," you'd get a bit of a different picture.

 

[CJ Wiley]

hundreds of thousands are being spent and not drawing any new people into the game

I appreciate your giving me these research assignments, CJ, but the pay isn't very good.

My estimates for the 2013 DCC events, all calculated from public information, are as follows (ignoring the 14.1 Challenge, which was pretty minor financially):

$120,950 -- Entry fees for the Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball events

$46,050 -- Buy-ins for Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball

$32,000 -- Entry fees for Bigfoot 10-Ball

$199,000 -- Total of entry fees and buy-ins for those 4 events
______________________________________________

$162,125 -- Prize money for Banks, One-Pocket, and 9-Ball

$50,000 -- Prize money for Bigfoot 10-Ball

$25,000 -- All-Around prize money to 3 players

$237,125 -- Total prize money for those 4 events
_____________________________________________

Therefore, prize money exceeded entry fees and buy-ins by $38,125.

So the overall net loss to the players was the total amount they spent on travel, lodging, food (only the excess over what they would have spent on food had they been home), and misc. expenses -- minus that $38,125. I can't put any educated number on the total, but with the number of players involved (353, 280, 277 in the 3 big events), it has to be several hundred thousand dollars.

But a big caveat to all this is that not all of the hundreds of players going to the DCC are there as professionals "on business" trying to make money. The majority of the players are not professionals and are there for other reasons -- entertainment/vacation, personal challenge, personal development, etc. If you singled out just the "pros at work," you'd get a bit of a different picture.

Yes, it's not exactly a Pro Tournament, but it's the biggest one of the year. It's utterly amazing what has happened to the game since they started this type format instead of doing TV Events.

The thing is ALL these hundreds of thousands are being spent and not drawing any new people into the game. I've been saying in numerous posts that we need to just have Pro tournaments with 4-8 players and PUT THEM ON TV...even if it's just regionally at first. Without TV this game will continue to plummet like a lead balloon.....'The Game needs a Raise". :thumbup:

 

[CJ Wiley]

we will have to start something great here in DFW Texas.

THIS is ONE of the main reasons why I STOPPED playing pro events!
At $300-500 a time there was just no payback...
I was never in it to win it, more of a journey man (which every sport needs). But I got tired of receiving nothing for my travels (air miles).

If incentives like TV screening, interviews and social interaction was a reality, I'd probably be touring still?
Instead, I now pick and choose which events I play (wish it were more) and CASH ALL THE TIME!
1% of something is better than 100% of nothing :thumbup:

I don't blame you one bit. Each time I don't go to a tournament I feel like I won....and I did clear more than 75% of the field by NOT playing....that's brutal, and makes it impossible to treat the situation in a business manner.....and due to the negativity it's not much fun either, so we will have to start something great here in DFW Texas.

 

[336Robin]

Smaller Events

Yes, it's not exactly a Pro Tournament, but it's the biggest one of the year. It's utterly amazing what has happened to the game since they started this type format instead of doing TV Events.

The thing is ALL these hundreds of thousands are being spent and not drawing any new people into the game. I've been saying in numerous posts that we need to just have Pro tournaments with 4-8 players and PUT THEM ON TV...even if it's just regionally at first. Without TV this game will continue to plummet like a lead balloon.....'The Game needs a Raise". :thumbup:

I agree that the game is a spectator sport and people need to be able to watch but just getting the sport back to where people want to watch it is a challenge.

I went to venue yesterday, the seating looked really promising and the price I was quoted sounded good until he told that was for an 8 hr day or it was extra, the place had to be locked up by 12pm, no smoking outside the venue and on and on more bad information that wasn't listed on the website or mentioned in the phone call and I was like, this business is impossible.

Most places I go to look at a place to do a Trade Show type event its seating. Im beginning to think someone needs to go into the portable bleacher business and service tournaments in order just to make things workable.

Not to mention all the other aggravations...geez

 

[336Robin]

Event

Lenny the whole Bonus Ball fiasco was just one more big nail in the coffin for professional pool in this country. When legitimate promoters work so hard to create good events for the sport and they get dumped on by the players, it stings!

Jay,

Please excuse me because I don't really know you or a lot about you so if I seem stupid about what you have and have not done....I am.

Im trying to put things together in my area for an event and from what I am finding its nearly impossible to make the numbers work and we are talking an event where there is barely enough money added to attract a lot of pros so I wouldn't design it that way.

I don't see how anyone can add 20, 30, 50k to any event. I don't see the numbers working right to do it.

Has anyone ever made money on an event? It seems to me that its more about promoting a brand and paying for it.

 

[JAM]

Jay,

Please excuse me because I don't really know you or a lot about you so if I seem stupid about what you have and have not done....I am.

Im trying to put things together in my area for an event and from what I am finding its nearly impossible to make the numbers work and we are talking an event where there is barely enough money added to attract a lot of pros so I wouldn't design it that way.

I don't see how anyone can add 20, 30, 50k to any event. I don't see the numbers working right to do it.

Has anyone ever made money on an event? It seems to me that its more about promoting a brand and paying for it.

Bottom line is it takes money to make money. The more you spend on PR, advertising, soliciting sponsors, hiring enough staff to handle the logistic duties, to include referees, tournament directors, gate people, et cetera, the better the event.

Putting on a pool tournament today is a gamble. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Someone with expertise in this area has a better shot at turning a profit, but there are only a few who can turn a profit in today's American pool culture. The fans just aren't willing to spend the money, it seems. Pros have little to no respect for a multitude of reasons, many of which is people stereotype them as pariahs with no jobs and scum of the earth. There you have it!

 

[Island Drive]

BewareCorporateAgenda

Bottom line is it takes money to make money. The more you spend on PR, advertising, soliciting sponsors, hiring enough staff to handle the logistic duties, to include referees, tournament directors, gate people, et cetera, the better the event.

Putting on a pool tournament today is a gamble. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Someone with expertise in this area has a better shot at turning a profit, but there are only a few who can turn a profit in today's American pool culture. The fans just aren't willing to spend the money, it seems. Pros have little to no respect for a multitude of reasons, many of which is people stereotype them as pariahs with no jobs and scum of the earth. There you have it!

I've always said, the BCA picks the fruit, but won't tend to the orchards. Pool players in Many ways act similar to our trade organization, and perpetuate the Syndrome. How ironic but true.

 

[336Robin]

Has the Worm Turned?

Bottom line is it takes money to make money. The more you spend on PR, advertising, soliciting sponsors, hiring enough staff to handle the logistic duties, to include referees, tournament directors, gate people, et cetera, the better the event.

Putting on a pool tournament today is a gamble. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Someone with expertise in this area has a better shot at turning a profit, but there are only a few who can turn a profit in today's American pool culture. The fans just aren't willing to spend the money, it seems. Pros have little to no respect for a multitude of reasons, many of which is people stereotype them as pariahs with no jobs and scum of the earth. There you have it!

Jam,
I agree with your post but for another time. I think due to the very reasons you listed in your post that....the worm has turned....so to speak.

I have a very bad quality....I don't know when to quit...so when I see something that I think would work out I tend to start getting my hopes up...then find out what I did yesterday and pretty much it was like a neon sign saying.....We don't want your kind around here.

If I do a tournament, its going to be paid for the day the door opens or it simply doesn't happen. Things like not getting the money to the players happen like that.

If that condition doesn't exist, then the business cannot exist. While I agree with you that the business is a gamble, its one I don't intend to lose at ...if I do it.

Somewhere and at sometime, under the correct conditions things will begin to happen for pool. I view all of this sort of as a ReConstrution Era for Pool.

If you find the right area and rent and conditions.

3 things have to exist.....Tables, Seating that allows viewing and Added Money

Any idiot who can put together those 3 things in my mind can throw an event at least to the degree that it was possible to make money.

Since I don't intend to stick my neck out very far until I retire Im renting everything.

I think the guy who makes it in the business has to own a part of it and I think the part he is going to have to own is the seating part. If you had good quality portable bleachers. All you need then is solid concrete floor, ability to hang lights and something can happen.

So this is my idea on what its going to take to do small events all over the US. There simply has to be seating arrangements that work.

From what Im seeing I just don't believe that I would risk any of my money on an event with a large speculation of players showing up due to the very reasons you mentioned.

I think in todays world its a get word out and then when the word is spread and people start talking about how good something was, that is where you have sustainable growth and you damn sure cant go to bat on one barrel. So your model has to be self sustainable and you have to have someone who wants the market to turn and believes in your model.

 

[Ken_4fun]

For folks that are supposed to be business savy...there are alot of numbers you are missing especially at the DCC.

Secondly, looking at what is each player averaging is laughable. Its kinda like going to Disneyland and saying, "Wow that was a net loss!". Lots of folks go to DCC and play and spend money just like going to Disneyland or Vegas.

Thirdly, the experts here making some claims about DCC, dont even go to support the event.

Frankly, to me you lose alot of credibility if you dont attend the events and then cry when the attendance is down.

Ken

 

[JAM]

I've always said, the BCA picks the fruit, but won't tend to the orchards. Pool players in Many ways act similar to our trade organization, and perpetuate the Syndrome. How ironic but true.

If this is true, then the BCA should remove themselves from the competitive pool world, change their name, and call themselves the Billiard Industry Member Association. They do nothing for professional pool. While they continue on their quest to get fat, ignoring professional pool, the American professional players are starving, scrambling to make ends meet. If you believe pro players don't do anything for the sport, well, maybe it's because the American pool culture continues to have no respect for them and bashes them continuously, as evidenced quite frequently on this so-called "pool forum." :angry:

If I was a pro player today, I wouldn't be thinking about interacting with the American pool culture. I've tried it in the past for Keith, and the only thing you get is nothing back. Nobody remembers the charity events, the free autographs and pictures. Nobody remembers the lessons given to youngsters for free to help promote pool. The American pool culture only wants to point out every blemish and wart, ignoring any good that is done by these pros.

 

[Ken_4fun]

If I was a pro player today, I wouldn't be thinking about interacting with the American pool culture. I've tried it in the past for Keith, and the only thing you get is nothing back. Nobody remembers the charity events, the free autographs and pictures. Nobody remembers the lessons given to youngsters for free to help promote pool. The American pool culture only wants to point out every blemish and wart, ignoring any good that is done by these pros.

I think you are wrong.

The kids remember it.

Listen to Freddy and so many on this board that talk about Fats, Mosconi. I have met Mike Massey (awesome with fans), Nick Varner and Johnny Archer (awesome with fans).

Some gifts you give away mean more than you think.

Ken