To all maker's of cues-> Question

cueman said:
I gave you the answer of what makes a cue play different. I did not say the top name or lower name cue plays better. All I said was what makes cues play different. It is true that some of the top name cues do not play any better than some of the lessor known. But even with that being said which plays best is still up to the players and no cue plays the best everyone.
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That is one of the things I said in a earlier post also Chris. I would say that the majority of the custom built cues plays real good. It is up to the holder of the cue that determines how it plays. And it will change from person to person. Some people will say yours play better, some will say mine plays better. Some will say Searing or Shick or JW Gilbert and so on plays better. Its all a opinion! Everyone has one. And most will think that the more well known builders cues will play better. Well.......... Doesnt make one better than the other. Just a name game is all it boils down to.
 
I gave you the answer of what makes a cue play different. I did not say the top name or lower name cue plays better. All I said was what makes cues play different. It is true that some of the top name cues do not play any better than some of the lessor known. But even with that being said which plays best is still up to the players and no cue plays the best everyone

I understand Chris. I appreciate your input and being open about this. I have been in a room full of maker's and collectors many times and brought this topic up. Varying answers to sat the least. All i can say is that in the world today the economy dictates all. We as a society seem to have the flock of sheep style mentality. We falsely trust what we are told by many and transform that into fact. Like production cues are terrible, if you are anybody,you will own a custom like us type thing. I did not start this discussion to in any way say custom cue making or the maker's are bad, they have a talent no doubt. But the functionality of their product and the fine line between craftsman ship and art is very blurry with some of the maker's today. Reflecting on the enormous prices they are demanding and the economy in which they have to survive in.
I believe the main core of all buyers in this market are between 1.00 to 1000.00 price point. Anything more is turned over to the elite or wealthy,collectors, and or resellers banking on the name of such cue maker's for profit.
But the average Joe supports and funds this market, and I believe these select few maker's are ruining the market value of their own product by setting such high demand, unbelievable price points,limited availability, to where up and coming cue maker's and even seasoned veterans are the ones suffering. In this I mean, they are constantly compared to the fancy cues, perfect inlays(so called) top quality work these gentleman say they put out. hense the follow the flock syndrome. But let's face it, most times, you are getting a great cue, very nice quality if not more, amazing designs, and for a fraction of the price of these so called Top Shelf builders. I say thank you to all the guys doing this everyday in there little shops, by hand, with amazing talent, limited machines, and shoe string budgets. You builders have the heart and soul this game lives for, not the high dollar, mantle piece collector cues we often see put on the pedestal as we all say ah. Although some are truly nice, none are worth the thousands they demand.
 
I went to use the popcorn emoticon but couldn't find it. Bummer!

In any event, I find this thread simply amazing.
 
Do a search on here for " the ultimate black boar " then come back and tell us what your opinion of a fair price would be.


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I don't frequent the forums any more, but when I get a moment now & then, I skim through the cue maker sections to see if anything interesting is going on. I'll offer my thoughts on this subject.

First of all, every cue maker who has invested time & money into machinery and a learning curve, is not getting paid anywhere near what his talents are worth. You claim that very few cues are worth the thousands they cost, but have you thought to ask what the builder paid himself per hour to build that cue? You might be very surprised to learn that many, many builders make far less than minimum wage rates. I did the math once just to satisfy my curiosity and was appalled to learn I was clearing about $2/hr. Would you work for $2/hour? Yet you'll complain about how much cues cost. IMO, any cuemaker who charges low prices to be "fair" is a fool, being fair to everybody but himself. This is one major factor in why I don't build much anymore. It simply isn't worth it. When i'm old & grey & nothing else to do, I may build cues seriously again.

As for what makes one cue different from another, it's already been stated several times. For instance, Danny makes a cue with an .850" joint, 1.1" "A" joint, & compound taper in the butt, with a shaft taper that begins it's curve 18" out from joint, curving into a 13mm ferrule made of high grade melamine on a 3/8" tenon. The joint pin is 3/8 big pin. He buys only the finest woods, and uses only the best of what he buys, choosing for tone, stability, and aesthetics. His cues have a distinctive hit & feel that is very popular with players, and therefore his cues are in high demand & with that comes high prices.

Davey's cue has a .830" joint, .995" "A" joint, straight tapered butt, 5/16 joint pin, and a shaft taper that is 13mm for 15" from tip before curving up to the joint. His ferrule is juma or some other economy plastic & it's installed onto a 5/16-14 tenon that is cut using a die. He shops for good deals on wood, and uses everything he buys so to minimize his losses. He has been building cues for 30 years & has it down to a science, but yet he can't give his cues away because nobody wants one. Could he change things up or even be a little less cheap on his builds? Yes, but he doesn't. He's a creature of habit. Rather than change his methods or spend the money that it costs to get good quality materials, he'll instead just ***** & moan about the market being driven only by name. And I'm using the dimensions as example, not comparing. Just pointing out how drastically different cues can be and still be relatively the same if you don't know any better.

And how well does Davey match up to Danny on the table? Is Danny running out while Davey just racks? Could it possibly be that Danny is a better cue maker because he's a better player? In the real word, not every man is created equal. Face it, some men are born better, while others work to be better, but in any case some are simply better. No different with cue makers. Simple facts of life. Any skilled machine operator can build a structurally sound cue. It's pointless if he doesn't understand what that cue is supposed to do or how it should feel. The devil is in the details and you must know how to manipulate things to alter said details. Otherwise you are a cookie cutter cue maker complaining about not being able to sell cues.

I'm not going to try changing your mind about how you feel regarding cues. Either you play well enough to understand the subtleties or you do not. It shouldn't matter to you, as a consumer, why one cue plays better than another. What should matter is WHICH cue plays best for you, and are you willing to pay the price to obtain it? If you aren't good enough to know the difference, then yeah, shop by price because a great cue would do you no justice, anyway. Hey, I can't tell the difference between my GMC pick-up truck & my daughter's Honda Civic. I drive both within the speed limit & they both get me there. If I wanna haul something, I take the truck. If I wanna cheap out on gas, I take her car. No matter to me. If you take that approach with your pool game, then cues don't matter so long as they "get you there". If you are a competitive player in tune with the finer aspects of spin, control, feel, speed, power, etc., then yes every cue is different & you'll be best off with one that fits you.

I apologize if I offended anybody. I'm not pointing fingers or ridiculing anybody, just stating my opinion. One thing I have noticed with cue makers is that they are incredibly stubborn & narcissistic. Many wouldn't admit they are wrong if it was proven without any shadow of doubt. They believe in themselves to a fault. Granted, you gotta be tough in order to be in this business. Let's face it, our target market is pool players. Need more be said? However, if a builder is unable to morph & adapt with an open mind, he's not going to grow. I am a cue maker & am subject to everything I have said about cue makers. I am not saying all of this from a seat of righteousness. I understand cue makers' faults because I am a cue maker & have those faults. It's an observation from the inside. Cues differ greatly in playability from one builder to another. Hell, cues differ greatly in playability from the same maker. The question really isn't what makes them different. It's more of, are you good enough to notice the difference?
 
. You builders have the heart and soul this game lives for, not the high dollar, mantle piece collector cues we often see put on the pedestal as we all say ah. Although some are truly nice, none are worth the thousands they demand.
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That is your opinion on what they are worth. The first time I broke the two thousand dollar cue sale mark was in 1995. All the inlays were done with a pantograph. It had silver lace (Gallery wire) work in it and was loaded with ivory and abalone. Which was rare in those days. We had over $300 in materials in that cue. Another cuemaker which is very well known now went with me to that show. He sold five cues at the show and I sold that one. His five cues brought less than the one cue I sold. We estimated the hours we had in the cues. He had less time and material dollars in the five cues than we had in the one cue.

So was the cue we sold overpriced? I think not as the reseller made a profit on the cue. We have put over 200 hours in a single cue. My son insists we put over 300 hours in one cue, but I am not positive on that one. But I will tell you this. The 200 hour cue will not play any better than our $900 cues. But I am not working 200 hours and providing a few hundred dollars of materials for $900. Nor do I expect any other cue maker to. So is cue art worth the money?

It seems to you it is not. To others it is.
 
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qbilder said:
I don't frequent the forums any more, but when I get a moment now & then, I skim through the cue maker sections to see if anything interesting is going on. I'll offer my thoughts on this subject.

First of all, every cue maker who has invested time & money into machinery and a learning curve, is not getting paid anywhere near what his talents are worth. You claim that very few cues are worth the thousands they cost, but have you thought to ask what the builder paid himself per hour to build that cue? You might be very surprised to learn that many, many builders make far less than minimum wage rates. I did the math once just to satisfy my curiosity and was appalled to learn I was clearing about $2/hr. Would you work for $2/hour? Yet you'll complain about how much cues cost. IMO, any cuemaker who charges low prices to be "fair" is a fool, being fair to everybody but himself. This is one major factor in why I don't build much anymore. It simply isn't worth it. When i'm old & grey & nothing else to do, I may build cues seriously again.

As for what makes one cue different from another, it's already been stated several times. For instance, Danny makes a cue with an .850" joint, 1.1" "A" joint, & compound taper in the butt, with a shaft taper that begins it's curve 18" out from joint, curving into a 13mm ferrule made of high grade melamine on a 3/8" tenon. The joint pin is 3/8 big pin. He buys only the finest woods, and uses only the best of what he buys, choosing for tone, stability, and aesthetics. His cues have a distinctive hit & feel that is very popular with players, and therefore his cues are in high demand & with that comes high prices.

Davey's cue has a .830" joint, .995" "A" joint, straight tapered butt, 5/16 joint pin, and a shaft taper that is 13mm for 15" from tip before curving up to the joint. His ferrule is juma or some other economy plastic & it's installed onto a 5/16-14 tenon that is cut using a die. He shops for good deals on wood, and uses everything he buys so to minimize his losses. He has been building cues for 30 years & has it down to a science, but yet he can't give his cues away because nobody wants one. Could he change things up or even be a little less cheap on his builds? Yes, but he doesn't. He's a creature of habit. Rather than change his methods or spend the money that it costs to get good quality materials, he'll instead just ***** & moan about the market being driven only by name. And I'm using the dimensions as example, not comparing. Just pointing out how drastically different cues can be and still be relatively the same if you don't know any better.

And how well does Davey match up to Danny on the table? Is Danny running out while Davey just racks? Could it possibly be that Danny is a better cue maker because he's a better player? In the real word, not every man is created equal. Face it, some men are born better, while others work to be better, but in any case some are simply better. No different with cue makers. Simple facts of life. Any skilled machine operator can build a structurally sound cue. It's pointless if he doesn't understand what that cue is supposed to do or how it should feel. The devil is in the details and you must know how to manipulate things to alter said details. Otherwise you are a cookie cutter cue maker complaining about not being able to sell cues.

I'm not going to try changing your mind about how you feel regarding cues. Either you play well enough to understand the subtleties or you do not. It shouldn't matter to you, as a consumer, why one cue plays better than another. What should matter is WHICH cue plays best for you, and are you willing to pay the price to obtain it? If you aren't good enough to know the difference, then yeah, shop by price because a great cue would do you no justice, anyway. Hey, I can't tell the difference between my GMC pick-up truck & my daughter's Honda Civic. I drive both within the speed limit & they both get me there. If I wanna haul something, I take the truck. If I wanna cheap out on gas, I take her car. No matter to me. If you take that approach with your pool game, then cues don't matter so long as they "get you there". If you are a competitive player in tune with the finer aspects of spin, control, feel, speed, power, etc., then yes every cue is different & you'll be best off with one that fits you.

I apologize if I offended anybody. I'm not pointing fingers or ridiculing anybody, just stating my opinion. One thing I have noticed with cue makers is that they are incredibly stubborn & narcissistic. Many wouldn't admit they are wrong if it was proven without any shadow of doubt. They believe in themselves to a fault. Granted, you gotta be tough in order to be in this business. Let's face it, our target market is pool players. Need more be said? However, if a builder is unable to morph & adapt with an open mind, he's not going to grow. I am a cue maker & am subject to everything I have said about cue makers. I am not saying all of this from a seat of righteousness. I understand cue makers' faults because I am a cue maker & have those faults. It's an observation from the inside. Cues differ greatly in playability from one builder to another. Hell, cues differ greatly in playability from the same maker. The question really isn't what makes them different. It's more of, are you good enough to notice the difference?
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The above post pretty much sums it all up, from a cue maker's standpoint.

The reality of the custom cue market is.....it is what it is. Those that can afford it, will....those that cannot, will b*tch. :)

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To the OP, I think your initial questions are quite open-ended. I think Hightower and a few others have answered them fairly well. This is a question that comes up a lot (what makes this cue better than that? etc, etc). Besides the materials and techniques there is the factor that every cue is subject to personal preference.

Qbuilder provided some considerable insight to this topic, and that might change some people's perspectives as to how they value cues. I personally wouldn't pay two grand or whatever a searing dufferin conversion is going for... but it is fair to say that some cuemakers have earned their reputation for a reason. I think this market is saturated with cue makers, and as someone who is starting to learn this craft, I question my sanity sometimes.

Look at someone like Bill Schick for example. It's not worth his time to build a cue near cost. he has to charge a premium to keep with demand. Most makers who have a backlog of custom orders will tell you the same. You talk about cuemakers setting high demand for their cues, how about the re-sellers in the market? Some of these guys are cutthroat.

For example, I bought one of my first customs for about 400 bucks. It was a '99 Coker that had been refinished plus an ivory joint, ebony nose, all rings, perfect condition. At the time, I did some research and thought it was a good deal. I ended up selling that for not much more than I paid for it, maybe 450... I saw it for sale a month later for 1000 bucks and the seller had it listed as having recuts (which it didn't)....and he's a well known seller. This is stupidity and greed in my opinion. But like someone earlier said, our market is pool players, hustlers, pro's, bar bangers, etc... It's a tough market. Most cues on the secondary market have less than retail prices, some hold their value, and some gain value.

On a positive note, I'm having a great time learning this craft, and if I can keep up with my costs, I will continue to build and learn, and hopefully sell a few cues ;)
 
danieldakota53 said:
ok, nonsense alluding a real question. I would guess blindfolded, a cuemaker couldn't pick his own cue that he swears he spends so much time perfecting HIS hit and HIS playability out of a group of 5 cues,only 1 being his! Any takers?
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That's a hefty proposition. I would be willing to bet on the cuemakers side (depending on who it is).
 
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stratshutr said:
Do a search on here for " the ultimate black boar " then come back and tell us what your opinion of a fair price would be.


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Your comparing apples to oranges here. There is a big difference between that cue and what I understand the OP question is.
 
No , still don't have a clear pin point answer. It's not about tapers, joint sizes, pins, or so called experience. As I stated in the very first post, after any cue maker reaches a level of knowledge to where he is building a fine cue, meaning he knows all this, and not counting the fancy inlaid cues,which would exclude the super black boar or all of your fancy inlaid $2,000 cue Chris, what makes some cues draw thousands, and others do not. Obviously if both so called low end maker's and so called top tere maker's have put in the time, what gets one to that range of price and the other does not. Both spend hours into a cue with time, materials, and equipment.
And qbuilder, so many things I do not agree in your post, and others started to hinge on answering the original post, but then detoured. Well spoken , but way off track. And if you are building a cue for 2.00 an hour, your doing something very wrong. None of your cues have the hours into them as many have tried to compare here. You build very nice constructed cues, as I have played with many, but are not ornate in any way besides the wonderful choice of woods you chose. Meaning, you don't inlay except for your scallops and points. And I know what your cues run in price range and what such materials cost. So 2.00 and hour, please, only if you are hand chiseling them.
It's a very simple question, besides who you know, bs, and tricky marketing, what is the difference is the question to makers on why cue a is so much cost different to cue b when both makers have talent, skill and a wonderful product to offer? Now, any takers?
 
danieldakota53 said:
No , still don't have a clear pin point answer. It's not about tapers, joint sizes, pins, or so called experience. As I stated in the very first post, after any cue maker reaches a level of knowledge to where he is building a fine cue, meaning he knows all this, and not counting the fancy inlaid cues,which would exclude the super black boar or all of your fancy inlaid $2,000 cue Chris, what makes some cues draw thousands, and others do not. Obviously if both so called low end maker's and so called top tere maker's have put in the time, what gets one to that range of price and the other does not. Both spend hours into a cue with time, materials, and equipment.
And qbuilder, so many things I do not agree in your post, and others started to hinge on answering the original post, but then detoured. Well spoken , but way off track. And if you are building a cue for 2.00 an hour, your doing something very wrong. None of your cues have the hours into them as many have tried to compare here. You build very nice constructed cues, as I have played with many, but are not ornate in any way besides the wonderful choice of woods you chose. Meaning, you don't inlay except for your scallops and points. And I know what your cues run in price range and what such materials cost. So 2.00 and hour, please, only if you are hand chiseling them.
It's a very simple question, besides who you know, bs, and tricky marketing, what is the difference is the question to makers on why cue a is so much cost different to cue b when both makers have talent, skill and a wonderful product to offer? Now, any takers?
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Why don't you just be specific and name these cues that sell for thousands?
And others who do not ?
Save us the guessing.
 
Would you charge $6500 if you knew the buyer could easily flip it for $7500 as soon as he got the cue?

ALMOST ALL MAKERS THINK their cues play as nice or better than the others.
But, somehow only few command high dollar.
The " name " is built slowly one customer at a time.
If the cues keep getting flipped for higher than original price, the maker would be dumb not to raise his price. Cue flippers will keep ringing his phone with sob or nice stories. But, the real intent is to profit from the makers' low price.
It's a fact in this industry.
Someday maybe another maker would think YOUR price too high too.

This is on the right track. And I answer no to your question. If you have a cue you have say 200.00 into, not counting your time. And you sell this cue for 1,000, thats a 800.00 profit on such cue. Which is a great margin no matter what retail business you are in. And if you double your cost by including your time, it is still 600.00 profit. Still better than any retail business I know of. The ones that cane pull 4,000 plus for this same cost cue, good for them for the tactics and sales tricks they used to acquire such ridiculous profits. My original question, is how and why is this cue worth any more than cue a if both men are knowledged in building?
 
Why don't you just be specific and name these cues that sell for thousands?
And others who do not ?
Save us the guessing.

Read the forum and cue gallery. It's obvious many of the so called top tere maker's are discussed almost daily. It's not an attack or any one specific, it's a general question on what makes 2 equally talented cues have such a huge gap in cost? Why is this so hard to understand with all I have explained? If it is not a name game, who you know thing, I am openly asking cue maker's what truly makes that difference possible? The floor is there's with out the answers of tapers,both men are equal in knowledge to play well, nor inlays, taking that out of the equation, or years spent, both men have put in their time and know their stuff, or years spent proving themselves, as both builders I am sure have.
 
danieldakota53 said:
Why don't you just be specific and name these cues that sell for thousands?
And others who do not ?
Save us the guessing.

Read the forum and cue gallery. It's obvious many of the so called top tere maker's are discussed almost daily. It's not an attack or any one specific, it's a general question on what makes 2 equally talented cues have such a huge gap in cost? Why is this so hard to understand with all I have explained? If it is not a name game, who you know thing, I am openly asking cue maker's what truly makes that difference possible? The floor is there's with out the answers of tapers,both men are equal in knowledge to play well, nor inlays, taking that out of the equation, or years spent, both men have put in their time and know their stuff, or years spent proving themselves, as both builders I am sure have.
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Unfortunately, you're assuming wrong here imo.
The guy who can commands more, has a little more knowledge and better execution imo.
The guy who does not command as much as the other guy, should find out why he doesn't and strive to be better ( if he's not happy with his price ).
Not whine about the other guy getting more for "the same" as he perceives.
Guess what, they're not the same.
If prestige was the differential, bow to the other guy who has more prestige.
 
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Unfortunately, you're assuming wrong here imo.
The guy who can commands more, has a little more knowledge and better execution imo.
The guy who does not command as much as the other guy, should find out why he doesn't and strive to be better ( if he's not happy with his price ).
Not whine about the other guy getting more for "the same" as he perceives.
Guess what, they're not the same.
If prestige was the differential, bow to the other guy who has more prestige.

Or just face the simple facts that is life right. What is is and what isn't isn't. As I stated I collect, have many collector friends, and have held more cues than I can ever count and hit with many makers cues as well as seen many almost no name makers in my travels that build straight out nice cues that equal, and sometimes surpass quality that others say they build.
So no bowing will happen, nor any false searches will be performed. Because the statement you posted- "The guy who can commands more, has a little more knowledge and better execution imo." has no merit, because in many cases I have seen, that just is not the case.
 
It's the market, the buyers, the consumers, etc that mainly control the price. Have you ever taken an Econ course in school?
 
It's the market, the buyers, the consumers, etc that mainly control the price. Have you ever taken an Econ course in school?

I believe I can answer that with a yes. In my profession, P&L's and analyzing is a daily morning routine I have. And as far as what you are thinking those 3 things mean, in general terms, is hype my good man. If you can convince people it is true, it must be, and if they believe it to be truth, they will share such truth with all they encounter. Resulting in a mass following of un informed or false truth.
 
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