Diamond Pool Tables

[Harold Smith]

Be glad he is your friend and you can play on that table a lot.--Smitty

 

[hlymnstr14]

i have a 7ft diamond pro am. i don't have the room for a 9ft or i would have one. but i can tell you, the diamond 7ft isn't a "barbox". it's a 7ft 9ftr if that makes sense. switching from the 7ft diamond to a 9ft diamond is no difference at all other than the length. they play exactly the same. going from a valley or dynamo to a 9ftr is totally different and you will be hanging balls left and right. going from the 7ft diamond, you have to hit the pockets the exact same way. you get a 7ft diamond, your game will get better. your game won't have to change when you play on a 9ftr.

 

[Ken_4fun]

The items noted by RCK is right on most points.

I think Valley and GC got lazy. The Diamond tables corrected alot of the issues with both of them.

Diamonds have issues too, just different ones, and several of them.

IMO, no table is perfect.

One thing to consider, I bought a used GC 2 or 3 for $1k, had it recovered and the quite a bit of the metal powdercoated and it is really nice.

I couldnt find a used 9 foot Diamond for less than $2.5K and that was a beat up dog!

Yep you can spend a lot more for a Diamond, maybe 2-3 times what I have in the GC. For most folks I dont think that it makes that big a difference. I have heard some folks that didnt like their Diamond tables. But overall, I think Diamond tables would be considered the premier table.

Ken

 

[realkingcobra]

Ok. I buy that. But what is the purpose of using the k-66 profile rails that bank consistently short, and the deep shelf where balls hit pretty well hang up, leaving a player no chance to ' cheat ' the pocket or, in some shots, having to ' chinch ' the ball, then play safe. I dont care what the ' pros ' play on, but a room full of diamond pro-am tbls is pretty defeating to the masses of players in most rooms, IMO.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but its wrong, diamond uses K55 cushions, so I'd start from there and do some more research.

 

[SCCues]

You need to "adjust" your game to a diamond table.

I agree with this statement, but once you do they play so well. I just had a chance to play on some Diamond tables at Qmasters pool room while I was at the US Open and the first 30 minutes to an hour I struggled, but once I got the speed and how to make the shots down on the Diamond it was perfect for me. Diamond tables play so well and I'd love to own one one day!

James

 

[BasementDweller]

I've never read an explanation regarding the deep shelves on Diamond's pockets that made any sense to me. It's hard (if not impossible) to argue that a Diamond table is not a great table, but I don't understand how a deep shelf helps make the table play better. Sure it makes the table play tougher but so does a properly tightened up Gold Crown. The difference is the Gold Crown doesn't have those deep shelves that hang up balls that have historically gone into the pockets.

Why do people like deep shelves?

 

[Matt]

I've never read an explanation regarding the deep shelves on Diamond's pockets that made any sense to me. It's hard (if not impossible) to argue that a Diamond table is not a great table, but I don't understand how a deep shelf helps make the table play better. Sure it makes the table play tougher but so does a properly tightened up Gold Crown. The difference is the Gold Crown doesn't have those deep shelves that hang up balls that have historically gone into the pockets.

Why do people like deep shelves?

No everyone does. The bonus ball tables have very little shelf on them. The pocket shelf only comes into play on shots that don't enter the pocket cleanly, i.e. glance off the rail before hitting the inside of the pocket. Deeper shelves limit the speed and distance up the rail a ball can hit and go in the pocket without rattling. If you look at Diagram 1 of this article: http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2004/dec04.pdf, it reduces the spikes on the either end of the corner pocket graph. Simply tightening the pockets reduces the target size from all angles (drops the entire graph).

On a properly set up Diamond with either of the factory pocket sizes, a ball hit between the points of the pocket will go every time. The problem a lot of people have when playing on them for the first time is that they have gotten used to cheating the pocket too much, so they hang up balls that would go on most tables.

As far as dealing with balls hung in the pockets, the deep shelves do create some more difficult situations when it comes to playing position. They also give a little more real estate for someone to corner hook you. I don't mind the trade-off, but some might.

 

[Ken_4fun]

I've never read an explanation regarding the deep shelves on Diamond's pockets that made any sense to me. It's hard (if not impossible) to argue that a Diamond table is not a great table, but I don't understand how a deep shelf helps make the table play better. Sure it makes the table play tougher but so does a properly tightened up Gold Crown. The difference is the Gold Crown doesn't have those deep shelves that hang up balls that have historically gone into the pockets.

Why do people like deep shelves?

IMO -

I have heard for 20 years about "double shimmed" or "triple shimmed" Gold Crowns and how if you practice on tight pocketed table it will make you a better player.

THATS BS

Here why;

1.) I have seen tight tables make you play differently than you would play on a "normal" table. I mean shortstops that would normally just run out, now would play safe on the same shot. It changes how you play the game.

2.) It eliminated the "cheating" of a pocket to get shape. Again, if you playing on a very tight table, you are basically trying to "cinch" the ball (ie make the ball at the sacrifice of getting good shape on next ball)

It didnt make you a better player, it made you a smarter player on THAT table that you couldnt apply to most other tables.

Point 2
RKC and others could make new rails that would eliminate the need for "double or triple" shiming of pockets on GC. But the normal general "hacks" that usually tried to "hack" up a table made the corners of the rails vertually unplayable. This was especially disappointing play 1 pocket...so bad I would just rather not play.

IMO, Diamonds tables bought into the arguement that "shelf" made a better playing table. It does make it a tougher table but IMO, so many balls "jaw" in the pocket, that people start doing what I described above.

So why do they do that? IMO they are misdirected to do so, by the same folks who want to "triple shim" a GC.

What do I play on at home? A Gold Crown 3 with standard pockets.

Thats my take on it.

Let the lions out to rip me to shreads!

Ken

 

[ShortBusRuss]

IMO -

I have heard for 20 years about "double shimmed" or "triple shimmed" Gold Crowns and how if you practice on tight pocketed table it will make you a better player.

THATS BS

Here why;

1.) I have seen tight tables make you play differently than you would play on a "normal" table. I mean shortstops that would normally just run out, now would play safe on the same shot. It changes how you play the game.

2.) It eliminated the "cheating" of a pocket to get shape. Again, if you playing on a very tight table, you are basically trying to "cinch" the ball (ie make the ball at the sacrifice of getting good shape on next ball)

It didnt make you a better player, it made you a smarter player on THAT table that you couldnt apply to most other tables.


IMO, Diamonds tables bought into the arguement that "shelf" made a better playing table. It does make it a tougher table but IMO, so many balls "jaw" in the pocket, that people start doing what I described above.


Ken

Diamond did not change the way the game is played in any way, shape or form. Players who could run a six pack on a Gold Crown can run one now on a Diamond. I see all SORTS or packages run on Pro-Cut Diamonds.

The difference is, the pros look much more "professional" now on the Diamonds, than they did on the Gold Crowns. Pros are forced to play good position in order to run a big package now, whereas there was much more cheating of pockets in the GC days. This is why some players from the 80's/90's who refused to adapt can no longer compete.. Too much trying to "open the pocket up" with varying amounts of english, etc.. (Ahem Ahem...)

A well hit ball on a Diamond goes in. A badly hit ball will not. I've watched hundreds of hours of tournaments from the 80's/early 90's, and it was not an uncommon thing at all to see a ball hit the rail 2 feet up from the pocket and still go in.

Trust me... if you are getting constantly "corner hooked" by the pocket facing on a Diamond, then you need to be playing better players who don't keep jawing balls and leaving them deep in the pocket. Be grateful. If you were playing on a GC, the ball would fall and your opponent would be running out.

Complaining about deep shelves on Diamonds is something I've only seen weak players do. As has been stated before, a ball struck between the pocket points goes in. Badly hit balls jaw. It's as simple as that.

Too many people harkening back to a time when the tables forgave sloppy play.

Short Bus Russ

 

[LuckyStroke]

I love shooting on diamond tables. Last night I was playing on the nicest valley's in town (ridgeback rails, simonis 860 cloth, aramith balls) and every one in that league, including the owner of the room, would set fire to those valleys to play on diamonds.

I'm house shopping at the moment and table shopping shortly after that. I promise it will be a diamond pro am, but not sure if it will be 7' or 9'. I want to be able to play 14.1 at home, but those 7' pro ams are the nuts.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Russbaby -

First you say this -

Diamond did not change the way the game is played in any way, shape or form.

Then you say this -

Pros are forced to play good position in order to run a big package now, whereas there was much more cheating of pockets in the GC days. This is why some players from the 80's/90's who refused to adapt can no longer compete.. Too much trying to "open the pocket up" with varying amounts of english, etc.. (Ahem Ahem...)

A well hit ball on a Diamond goes in. A badly hit ball will not. I've watched hundreds of hours of tournaments from the 80's/early 90's, and it was not an uncommon thing at all to see a ball hit the rail 2 feet up from the pocket and still go in.

That is THE difference. If you want to say the first thing you cannot follow up with telling me how they are different

You made my arguement and then told me I was wrong.
This might be my favorite post of all time. Telling nothing changed and then list all the things that changed.....(you have nothing to with IRS or Obamacare do you ??!?)

I guess this weak player had to explain it, and then you tell me I was wrong.

LMAO

Ken

 

[BasementDweller]

Diamond did not change the way the game is played in any way, shape or form. Players who could run a six pack on a Gold Crown can run one now on a Diamond. I see all SORTS or packages run on Pro-Cut Diamonds.

The difference is, the pros look much more "professional" now on the Diamonds, than they did on the Gold Crowns. Pros are forced to play good position in order to run a big package now, whereas there was much more cheating of pockets in the GC days. This is why some players from the 80's/90's who refused to adapt can no longer compete.. Too much trying to "open the pocket up" with varying amounts of english, etc.. (Ahem Ahem...)

A well hit ball on a Diamond goes in. A badly hit ball will not. I've watched hundreds of hours of tournaments from the 80's/early 90's, and it was not an uncommon thing at all to see a ball hit the rail 2 feet up from the pocket and still go in.

Trust me... if you are getting constantly "corner hooked" by the pocket facing on a Diamond, then you need to be playing better players who don't keep jawing balls and leaving them deep in the pocket. Be grateful. If you were playing on a GC, the ball would fall and your opponent would be running out.

Complaining about deep shelves on Diamonds is something I've only seen weak players do. As has been stated before, a ball struck between the pocket points goes in. Badly hit balls jaw. It's as simple as that.
Too many people harkening back to a time when the tables forgave sloppy play.

Short Bus Russ

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying here. I used to hate tighter tables but it was always because I knew I wasn't good enough to play on them.

My current table is right at 4.5" and there is nothing that I can't do on these pockets that I could do on bigger ones. 4.5 inches is plenty big enough to cheat the pockets. Now, I'm even realizing the 4.25" probably wouldn't be too bad. If you can't play on 4.5 inch pockets it is because you really don't cue good enough. :frown:

Another thing about tighter tables that's never mentioned is there is actually some positional things you can do on tighter tables that you CANNOT do on looser ones. With those smaller pockets you can spin the cue ball much closer to the pocket when you are trying to spin in and out of a corner. This opens up some positional routes that aren't always there on the bigger pockets. But I digress...

My whole question about the deep shelves isn't really a complaint so much as just a curiousity. What's the point of them? I guess I'm probably off base because I haven't even played on a Diamond in a couple of years (probably should have mentioned that at the beginning). I would probably have to drive into Chicago to even find one. I just recall that it seemed like some well hit balls down the rail didn't go in when they should have.

So with all else being equal would a tight Diamond with a shorter shelf be too easy to play on? Or are all the complaints about the Diamond's deep shelves really just based on the old Diamond tables, with the complaints coming from the weaker players?

One last thing -- one of the most annoying things I've run into is listening to a couple of C players that aren't willing to play on a 9 foot table that has "buckets". It was okay for Mosconi to play on them but for some reason everybody now has to play on tight tables. Even guys that can't run 5 balls. Who are they kidding???

 

[Dunnn51]

IMO -

I have heard for 20 years about "double shimmed" or "triple shimmed" Gold Crowns and how if you practice on tight pocketed table it will make you a better player.

THATS BS

Here why;

1.) I have seen tight tables make you play differently than you would play on a "normal" table. I mean shortstops that would normally just run out, now would play safe on the same shot. It changes how you play the game.

2.) It eliminated the "cheating" of a pocket to get shape. Again, if you playing on a very tight table, you are basically trying to "cinch" the ball (ie make the ball at the sacrifice of getting good shape on next ball)

It didnt make you a better player, it made you a smarter player on THAT table that you couldnt apply to most other tables.

Point 2
RKC and others could make new rails that would eliminate the need for "double or triple" shiming of pockets on GC. But the normal general "hacks" that usually tried to "hack" up a table made the corners of the rails vertually unplayable. This was especially disappointing play 1 pocket...so bad I would just rather not play.

IMO, Diamonds tables bought into the arguement that "shelf" made a better playing table. It does make it a tougher table but IMO, so many balls "jaw" in the pocket, that people start doing what I described above.

So why do they do that? IMO they are misdirected to do so, by the same folks who want to "triple shim" a GC.

What do I play on at home? A Gold Crown 3 with standard pockets.

Thats my take on it.

Let the lions out to rip me to shreads!

Ken

Totally agree! You essentially said what I didn't wanna type concerning "adjusting" your game. Green to you :smile:

Diamond did not change the way the game is played in any way, shape or form. Players who could run a six pack on a Gold Crown can run one now on a Diamond. I see all SORTS or packages run on Pro-Cut Diamonds.

The difference is, the pros look much more "professional" now on the Diamonds, than they did on the Gold Crowns. Pros are forced to play good position in order to run a big package now, whereas there was much more cheating of pockets in the GC days. This is why some players from the 80's/90's who refused to adapt can no longer compete.. Too much trying to "open the pocket up" with varying amounts of english, etc.. (Ahem Ahem...)

A well hit ball on a Diamond goes in. A badly hit ball will not. I've watched hundreds of hours of tournaments from the 80's/early 90's, and it was not an uncommon thing at all to see a ball hit the rail 2 feet up from the pocket and still go in.

Trust me... if you are getting constantly "corner hooked" by the pocket facing on a Diamond, then you need to be playing better players who don't keep jawing balls and leaving them deep in the pocket. Be grateful. If you were playing on a GC, the ball would fall and your opponent would be running out.

Complaining about deep shelves on Diamonds is something I've only seen weak players do. As has been stated before, a ball struck between the pocket points goes in. Badly hit balls jaw. It's as simple as that.

Too many people harkening back to a time when the tables forgave sloppy play.

Short Bus Russ

SBR,
I think you are a little off here. I (we) are not "complaining" ,... we are saying its different.!
My match over the weekend had me with CB 2 diamonds off the head-rail looking at an OB on the long-rail for a 61/2 Diamond roll to the corner. Made the shot,... it was onna GC-1. I wouldn't have even considered that shot onna Diamond Pro-Am.

(sry for the multi-quote, I didn't wanna post twice.)

 

[realkingcobra]

Totally agree! You essentially said what I didn't wanna type concerning "adjusting" your game. Green to you :smile:



SBR,
I think you are a little off here. I (we) are not "complaining" ,... we are saying its different.!
My match over the weekend had me with CB 2 diamonds off the head-rail looking at an OB on the long-rail for a 61/2 Diamond roll to the corner. Made the shot,... it was onna GC-1. I wouldn't have even considered that shot onna Diamond Pro-Am.

(sry for the multi-quote, I didn't wanna post twice.)

Don't know why not, you could line up a 4 ball combination shot with all the balls froze to the rail, shoot the first ball with the cue ball at near break speed...and the first ball would go right in the corner pocket with no problem. If you can't make that same shot with a ball down rail and make, the problem is not with the table/pocket....its you, the shooter!

 

[ROB.M]

Table

I was gonna say.............. My Brunswick has K-66 rails. When did Diamond tables get them ?

-
Your gonna wanta call the cops! Brunswick did not use k-66..


Rob.M

 

[Ky Boy]

I can't believe people are unhappy that Diamond tables make them miss more balls than they normally do on other tables!

I think your normal table plays too easy!

Diamond's will make an honest player out of you...it's not as a forgiving table as the GC's I have ever played on! I am not talking about double or triple shimmed tables either. A GC with 4.5 pockets plays easier than a Diamond with 4.5 pockets. I imagine pocket shelf has a lot to do with that...


Gary

 

[Dunnn51]

-
Your gonna wanta call the cops! Brunswick did not use k-66..


Rob.M

I guess the brochure or Information booklet hadda mis-print in it then. I bought it brand new. :smile:

 

[Dunnn51]

yer right !

Don't know why not, you could line up a 4 ball combination shot with all the balls froze to the rail, shoot the first ball with the cue ball at near break speed...and the first ball would go right in the corner pocket with no problem. If you can't make that same shot with a ball down rail and make, the problem is not with the table/pocket....its you, the shooter!

You are right. 1 ball or 4 balls , yes you need speed and a thin cut. Thatsa tighter shot with that combination , and tighter still onna Diamond. Doubt I could make it, perhaps you could pot 10/10 RKC ??

 

[ceodynamo]

diamond tables have changed

Yes there are plenty of Diamond Tables with deep shelves in the pocket. I have played on them and thought they were spectacular.

However if you were to call diamond and speak to Aaron Berger he would tell you that "DIAMOND DOES NOT SELL THAT TABLE ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!" now they may still have some of the old slate that they used for those tables and could possibly talk him into selling it to you which he will talk you out of because I have been there.

The table they sell TODAY does not have the deep shelf. The reasoning on reducing the shelf space in the pocket was to allow the player to have more options when making the ball. LETS FACE IT PEOPLE LOVE TO RUN OUT!!!!!

The old shelf space limited what shots could be made, so today they have "perfected the ratio of how tight the pocket is to how deep the shelf is.

DIAMOND FLAT OUT MAKES THE BEST TABLE IN THE WORLD, THEY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS

 

[ceodynamo]

we need to hear from Diamond

Honestly it would be best if someone from Diamond would comment.