Mosconi Cup...The Hard Truth -- Gambling is Just Easier!

[danomano]

This goes to JHanso-

Using your same logic, does that suggest that a team championship event (take your pick - APA, Masters, NAPA, BCA, TAP - and I am talking nationals, not just a regular league week) match has less pressure than a $50 or $100 set? You can only win $ in those team events, can't lose anything, so by your logic - the fear of losing the hard earned benjamin should be way more than losing for your team.

 

[mikepage]

[...]

It really is the tortoise vs. the hare.

Gambling is just easier.

Thoughtful post, Mr BasementDweller...

I agree the MC--with reputation, legacy, and teammate respect at stake-- is likely more pressure than a big-money gambling match.

 

[mia]

I agree with jhanso and mia

I'm not sure why you're agreeing with both of us when I only agree with ONE aspect of what he's saying.... the US players don't take this seriously. They don't have a sense of 'team'. And more often than not, they look like look like they just don't case because, hell. They probably don't. They see a guaranteed payday so figure "I'll show up. If we win, we win. But I'm in it for the money. For me." They seem like they could care less about the national pride, the sense of team, etc.. They just care more about how THEY look and how THEY play.

The part of what he's saying I DISAGREE with is that Justin seems to think that this isn't real pool or that its some kind of pool-based reality show. Well, so what?!? So its not long format. So its not winner breaks. So they have to break from the box and a bunch of other rules that people will ***** about. What does that matter??? The bottom line is Team Europe shows up as a team. They support each other as a team. Hell. They had past members of Team Europe and present European players flying in to support their team. They practiced together. They had a camaraderie and respect for each other. And whether the format was (in their eyes) a joke OR ideal, they still took it seriously and banded together. Did the US guys do that this year? Hell no. Doesn't matter whether or not the format is amazing or horrible. The bottom line is, the Europeans approached the cup like it mattered. The US players didn't.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Despite the dozens of excuses I've read over the past few hours, I've yet to see anyone get to the heart of the matter.

Every non American KNOWS.

 

[mia]

Despite the dozens of excuses I've read over the past few hours, I've yet to see anyone get to the heart of the matter.

Every non American KNOWS.

So go ahead and get to it.

B <---------- American so I guess I don't get it?

 

[Cdryden]

"Nice match but you know you got lucky right? You wanna play a few sets later?"

"Sure Europe won the Mosconi Cup but none of those guys can win a gambling match!"

"We will never really know how good a player someone like Ralph Souquet is because he doesn't gamble and money matches are much more important than tournament victories."

ENOUGH ALREADY!

I think it's about time to put this gambling nonsense to bed. Sure gambling was and still is a major part of the American pool scene but when you really think about it -- gambling is just easier for many of the pro level players. Why is that you ask? Well, for most of these guys the battle is won before the first ball is even struck. If a pro is playing someone that plays below their speed, they know exactly how much weight they can give up, and they ensure the set is long enough to outrun any bad rolls and give them amble opportunity to overcome their mistakes. You call that pressure? The days of the top dogs playing on their last dime is pretty much gone. They know what they are doing and seldom do the top players even match up with each other.

But you say, there's money at stake when players are gambling and this really shows who is able to handle the pressure. Do you think these same players are somehow unable to count money when they find themselves in the finals of a major tournament? There can be a significant difference between winning 1st or 2nd in many major tournaments and I'm quite certain that all of the pro players are aware of this.

Flat out -- tournaments are just more difficult for the pros. I think they feel more pressure and all of the flaws in their strokes come out under the lights of a tough tournament match. There's no more thinking, "well, if he gets me this set we can just flip it again." Instead it's do or die time and they have to play perfect. Unfortunately for the U.S., we really don’t have too many players that are capable of playing perfect pool in this environment.

We live in a country that is littered with local champion money players. Almost all serious U.S. pool players are introduced to gambling very early on and many of them find a way to line their pockets after only a few years of serious play. This easy money breeds a certain laziness amongst those of us in the amateur ranks and I think it spills into the professional ranks as well. After all, it is this gambling culture that the pros come from. Many of them have viewed themselves as champion players long before they were even remotely close to being so. The easy money does something to the player’s psyche. They lose that hunger for practice since they are already the best player around and they have the cash to prove it.

Contrast that with the tournament warrior, especially of the European variety. Their goal isn’t to make some easy money, but to start out on a long journey to become a champion. Their goal isn’t to heist some banger out of a few bucks. Instead, they become dedicated to the game. Their only goal is to become the best player they can be and so they work diligently on their game – EVEN AFTER becoming a champion. For them it is not about the money.

It really is the tortoise vs. the hare.

Gambling is just easier.

Great post. I agree mostly with what you said. But to some extent it's apples and oranges. But I will say this, it takes a lot of discipline to dedicate yourself to pro pool knowing that the payoff is minimal. I would never fault a guy for not gambling. When people start the "Sure he can play tournaments but can he gamble?" crap, I just shake my head. They really don't get it.

I once beat a guy in league 8 ball 6-2. After I won he shook my hand and said "You might have won this match but I'll still give you the 7"! I told him that sounds good to me, I'm better at 9 ball anyway! All of the sudden he had to go to work and couldn't play. Some people are just bad sports and use that as an excuse or as a way to make themselves feel important.

 

[Donny Lutz]

American "exeptionalism"?

So go ahead and get to it.

B <---------- American so I guess I don't get it?

The Americans were constantly tripping over their egos.

Arrogance does not win matches.

The Euros play with patience, cooperation, humility, and respect...for their opponents and for the game...attributes not valued so much in America.

 

[spanky79]

you can always fire another barrel. In a tourney if you lose your done. This whole notion of money players being better is a JOKE.

 

[mia]

The Americans were constantly tripping over their egos.

Arrogance does not win matches.

The Euros play with patience, cooperation, humility, and respect...for their opponents and for the game...attributes not valued so much in America.

I could not POSSIBLY agree more. And the grand irony is, they walked away giving American pool a bad name. Granted it already have one but... not exactly the best way to change people's opinions.

 

[LAMas]

Did the US Team lose any money out of their pockets or just pride?

A little paycheck?

 

[drv4]

The way I see it, team USA is the bully, dominating the MC for the first decade plus just off the fact that 9 ball was America's game and we had the better talent. Europe got tired of being bullied and trained like they were Rocky in Rocky 4 montage and responded like they were Ralphie from the Christmas Story and finally hit the bully back, repeatedly. There is no doubt that Team Europe has a great captain who seems to motivate them and build team chemistry much like Phil Jackson did with his bulls and lakers teams. Team USA will never win a mosconi cup with Earl on the team, he is a cancer, it's not fun to watch his antics, everyone has seen the train wreck before and we don't need to see another stick broken, or need to listen to his woe is me act, that's what YouTube is for. Keep Shane, Morris and either Hatch or Archer and get two new fresh faces on the team (someone like Europe's Boyes who is playing not just for Europe, but also for himself to prove he belongs. Boyes isn't the most talented on team Europe but you can tell he will do anything to not lose and his record speaks for itself). I say let Jay Helfert be the captain of team USA next year and get these guys together for a weekend in a cabin in South Dakota with a 9 foot diamond table a week before the MC and let them build team chemistry together gambling, drinking, singing old Irish bar songs. earl was the difference between the close MCs the last few years and the MC this year that looked like an old pair of my undies, a blowout. A great captain, a little team chemistry and a few rolls could deliver a victory next year. Sack up team USA, that was embarrassing.

 

[Johnnyt]

There was an extra $10,000 per man for the winners. That is worth playing for. It's simple, Europe put out 5 better players and if they played 10 more times Europe would win the bigger % of them. The U.S players wanted to win, they just couldn't.

I hung out with that Jets team that Broadway Joe promised to win the Super Bowl. If game time was 1 PM on Sunday, half of them were still drunk from the partying the night/morning before. Same goes for Ruth, Mantle, a lot NASCAR drivers in the early days, and so on. Do you think any of them could win against the players today training like that. I'll let ya all read between the lines about why the U.S pool players are probably last out of the PI player, Asia players, and Europe players. Johnnyt

 

[spanky79]

The way I see it, team USA is the bully, dominating the MC for the first decade plus just off the fact that 9 ball was America's game and we had the better talent. Europe got tired of being bullied and trained like they were Rocky in Rocky 4 montage and responded like they were Ralphie from the Christmas Story and finally hit the bully back, repeatedly. There is no doubt that Team Europe has a great captain who seems to motivate them and build team chemistry much like Phil Jackson did with his bulls and lakers teams. Team USA will never win a mosconi cup with Earl on the team, he is a cancer, it's not fun to watch his antics, everyone has seen the train wreck before and we don't need to see another stick broken, or need to listen to his woe is me act, that's what YouTube is for. Keep Shane, Morris and either Hatch or Archer and get two new fresh faces on the team (someone like Europe's Boyes who is playing not just for Europe, but also for himself to prove he belongs. Boyes isn't the most talented on team Europe but you can tell he will do anything to not lose and his record speaks for itself). I say let Jay Helfert be the captain of team USA next year and get these guys together for a weekend in a cabin in South Dakota with a 9 foot diamond table a week before the MC and let them build team chemistry together gambling, drinking, singing old Irish bar songs. earl was the difference between the close MCs the last few years and the MC this year that looked like an old pair of my undies, a blowout. A great captain, a little team chemistry and a few rolls could deliver a victory next year. Sack up team USA, that was embarrassing.

the only reason the US dominated for so long was because the Euros didnt play much 9 ball in the past. The Euros put up snooker players. Now that the Euro players are at an equal level to the Euros, forget about.

 

[Money_Bags2]

I'm not sure why you're agreeing with both of us when I only agree with ONE aspect of what he's saying.... the US players don't take this seriously. They don't have a sense of 'team'. And more often than not, they look like look like they just don't case because, hell. They probably don't. They see a guaranteed payday so figure "I'll show up. If we win, we win. But I'm in it for the money. For me." They seem like they could care less about the national pride, the sense of team, etc.. They just care more about how THEY look and how THEY play.

The part of what he's saying I DISAGREE with is that Justin seems to think that this isn't real pool or that its some kind of pool-based reality show. Well, so what?!? So its not long format. So its not winner breaks. So they have to break from the box and a bunch of other rules that people will ***** about. What does that matter??? The bottom line is Team Europe shows up as a team. They support each other as a team. Hell. They had past members of Team Europe and present European players flying in to support their team. They practiced together. They had a camaraderie and respect for each other. And whether the format was (in their eyes) a joke OR ideal, they still took it seriously and banded together. Did the US guys do that this year? Hell no. Doesn't matter whether or not the format is amazing or horrible. The bottom line is, the Europeans approached the cup like it mattered. The US players didn't.

i agree with both because i agree it is made for TV and more feasible for ppl to watch... and i agree with you about the us players not taking it serious... you can just tell by their body language on if they care or not.... johnny acher was trying to act like he cared when he was playing but... really he is so messed up on pills he was just in a daze. shane was so mad that he was just free wheeling in his matches. dennis was mad cause earl would blow up every shot. and rodney was just on the fence... that's what i got from it...

no need to gang up on me guys. Its just an opinion

 

[Johnnyt]

i agree with both because i agree it is made for TV and more feasible for ppl to watch... and i agree with you about the us players not taking it serious... you can just tell by their body language on if they care or not.... johnny acher was trying to act like he cared when he was playing but... really he is so messed up on pills he was just in a daze. shane was so mad that he was just free wheeling in his matches. dennis was mad cause earl would blow up every shot. and rodney was just on the fence... that's what i got from it...

no need to gang up on me guys. Its just an opinion

Why was Shane mad? I never heard that about Johnny. I hope you saw them go down his throat? I don't care for Johnny A. lately because of ABP, Bonus Ball and being the leader of the good old boys, there are facts about that. I hope you have some. Johnnyt

 

[trob]

the only reason the US dominated for so long was because the Euros didnt play much 9 ball in the past. The Euros put up snooker players. Now that the Euro players are at an equal level to the Euros, forget about.

Thank you!!! Look at those first teams.. They were all snooker players. Snooker players are incredible players of course but there our different nuances in every game. They didn't have a break and there is a lot more q ball movement involved. They were playing off the cuff .. The same would be said if American players entered a snooker tournament. Could Earl play snooker? Of course if he dedicated himself to it but to just show up and play he would be an under dog.
I'm not a gambler but I wouldn't say that it doesn't help you play under pressure. I will say I've seen guys who are runout machines for the cash or in a tournament freeze when they play in a simple bca league playoff or final. Things change when you have team mates on the side line counting on you to win the game. I for one love that pressure..it makes winning league titles that much sweeter.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Thank you!!! Look at those first teams.. They were all snooker players. Snooker players are incredible players of course but there our different nuances in every game. They didn't have a break and there is a lot more q ball movement involved. They were playing off the cuff .. The same would be said if American players entered a snooker tournament. Could Earl play snooker? Of course if he dedicated himself to it but to just show up and play he would be an under dog.
I'm not a gambler but I wouldn't say that it doesn't help you play under pressure. I will say I've seen guys who are runout machines for the cash or in a tournament freeze when they play in a simple bca league playoff or final. Things change when you have team mates on the side line counting on you to win the game. I for one love that pressure..it makes winning league titles that much sweeter.

Earl the snooker player is funny.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Read some of his posts in other threads. He says Americans are genetically incapable of being skilled pool players. He's just an insubstantial troll.

And Bob is STILL lashing out in all directions, over something that was on his doorstep, which he doesn't even care about.

I don't believe I said that but whatever. Perhaps you can explain to me, how does a nation of millions of pool players fail to produce ONE *genuinely* world class player?

Genetically or not, you ARE incapable of being skilled pool players. Have you ever thought it's the attitude of some Americans that is creating this climate? You know, those that come up with endless excuses for your failure.

 

[BasementDweller]

[...]
I hung out with that Jets team that Broadway Joe promised to win the Super Bowl. If game time was 1 PM on Sunday, half of them were still drunk from the partying the night/morning before. Same goes for Ruth, Mantle, a lot NASCAR drivers in the early days, and so on. Do you think any of them could win against the players today training like that. I'll let ya all read between the lines about why the U.S pool players are probably last out of the PI player, Asia players, and Europe players. Johnnyt

I like this story you wrote about some of our old sports heroes.

I believe that during the evolution of all sports/games there comes a point in time where simply playing that game is no longer adequate training for competing at the highest level (bear with me as I'm having a hard time explaining this thought).

Consider basketball for a second...

It wasn't all that long ago that you could just play the game with your buddies while growing up and you could get pretty good, and if you happened to be more athletic than those around you, you would advance to play in college and then maybe even go on to play in the NBA. As the years rolled by, it took more time and more training to advance up the levels.

Golf is the same way. The amount of training required by today’s top players is ridiculous. If you aren't playing golf by the time your 8 years old -- you will be very far behind.

Baseball is the same way. Players are getting better training and they are getting it earlier and earlier.

The same thing can be said for just about all sports.

Pool is now at this same stage. Just playing the game is no longer enough. This may appear obvious and I believe it is for most of the world. However, here in the States I'm not sure that everybody has gotten the message. Our friends from across the pond have been trying to tell us this in a roundabout way but we have a hard time swallowing their message, which is understandable to a certain extent.

 

[The Chipsta]

Team pool is just a different type of pressure than gambling or tournament play. Some guys can't handle knowing that their teammates are watching their every shot and questioning the choices they make at the table. Gambling and tournament play are individual.

I only watched the match between Hatch and Souquet and their were great examples in that match. Archer tried to give Dennis a pep talk by telling him it looked like he didn't take his time on the previous turn. Not from the coaching 101 handbook. Should have reminded him to just slow down and take his time on the tougher shots. Hatch turned to his team after missing and tried to say the ball skidded. Replay showed that it did not. When you are up 4-1 in a team match and it starts to go south, the pressure builds much more than an individual performance. The thought of letting down your team makes the anxiety grow much faster.

I have seen too many good individual players that avoid team play because they hear voices in their head. They are wondering about what their team is thinking of their performance. European team was just more comfortable playing a team game.