Can someone help me understand the thought process behind these requests?

[JAM]

You Need A Scorecard On Here Now - Today, 01:09 AM
"It's really getting hard to figure out what court everyone is in on AZB. Even if your on the inside it's hard ,as they switch teams in midstream at the drop of a payday." Johnnyt


I was thinking, but I'm trying to quit !

Pool is a fractured industry in America. There are many factions. In some cases, loyalty is garnered with dollars, as we've seen with the recent Bonus Ball debacle.

Because turning a profit in the pool industry is more difficult than other "sports," if I may call pool a sport, there is an every-man-for-themself mentality. I empathize with this school of thought because I realize everybody has to eat and make ends meet. It is hard to be loyal to anyone when you have no roof over your head and can't afford to earn a living.

It is upsetting to read the stereotypical posts about the American professional pool player. I have seen MANY give away product for free, perform exhibitions for free, appear at charity events for free, give away photo opps and autographs for free. Yet, one American pro player's actions in the negative has a broad-brush effect on all American pro players. Reading about it on this forum is old hat. Nobody seems to ever write about the good things the American pros do, only the negative.

The recent 2014 Derby City Classic has given me hope that professional pool does, indeed, stand a chance to survive. Pro players are caught between a rock and a hard place right now. Many who cannot afford to compete full-time will leave professional pool. Those that want to stick it out will continue to be ridiculed, demeaned, and criticized for their decision to not get a traditional 9-5 job. They will be pariahs in the eyes of this forum.

I don't know what the answer is. New industry members like Str8 Shots are sorely needed. I embrace their efforts. The pro players will have to pick and choose what is best for their individual situation. Many promoters do offer funds to supplement a pro player's expenses in return for their appearance. This is not a rule written in stone, however. It's business, and just as an industry member has a right to run their busines the way they deem best for their company, so too does the professional pool player have that right.

 

[JAM]

...It is hard to be loyal to anyone when you have no roof over your head and can't afford to earn a living....

I wanted to highlight the above phrase: "can't afford to earn a living."

In order to be in the pool profession, one must spend money to have the opportunity to earn money. You can't just go out there and earn a living without spending first, i.e., hotel, travel, entry fees, appropriate clothing attire, food on the road.

In this regard, this is why some promoters, like Greg Sullivan of of the DCC or Tom Gearhart of the past-Glass City Open, do offer perks of various kinds to help the pro pool player attend their events. They do understand the financial difficulties involved with competing on a pro level.

Most of the time, these offers of perks are done behind the scenes, as it's nobody's business who's getting what. It's a business arrangement that hopefully with benefit both sides.

This does *not* mean that all industry members or promoters should give free perks to pro pool players. I only write this post to illustrate why some do. :smile:

 

[PETROBOY]

Where does the money to cover expenses come from? How do you recover that money?


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[JAM]

Where does the money to cover expenses come from? How do you recover that money?


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I am not in the business of promoting tournament, so the finance end as far as turning a profit is something I have no experitse in.

But this is an accepted practice in most sports. People don't publish who gets paid what in other sports like they do in pool.

 

[PETROBOY]

But if you can't get a return on investment you would be farther ahead having amateurs play. If expenses are say 2k and you cover only 5 pros your out 10k before you start and she said they said no to helping with a show or instructions. Why should it cost a promoter money to have a pro win a tournament and get nothing in return? It's not like they are filling seats and making cash off a gate. Maybe these pros should come up with a trick show or something to increase their value when asking for expenses to be covered but that's just my thoughts.


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[Str8 Shots]

In case anyone hasn't said it yet, thank you for creating more pool-shooting opportunities on American soil.

You may soon discover that the *majority* on this forum seem to believe that professional players are bums with no jobs, the scum of the earth, and should never been granted a crumb for their pool-playing capabilities. This thread is a good example of *YET AGAIN* another pro-player bashing thread. It happens quite frequently. In the American pool culture, pool is cruel to its own, whether you're a professional pool player or a tournament promoter or even a live-streamer offer a live pool match-up for free.

I am so pleased that you have decided to work in the American pool world. We could use more people just like you. There are indeed factions in this American pool world, and the loyalty of some are fickle and change as often as the weather.

My personal experience, when my other half, who used to compete in two, three, and four tournaments per month, with me handling the logistics, et cetera, is that we never accepted "free" entries, "free" lodging," or "free" money to attend an event. The reasons why are so we don't feel obligated to anyone and can enjoy the tournament to its fullest without dancing like a monkey for another. My other half would perform exhibitions, give lessons, and do things for tournament promoters for free, because that's how he rolls, and we like it like that. Nobody can thereafter claim he should have danced better because he was paid to do so. In other words, he danced to the beat of his own drum *and* on his own dime. :grin-square:

I hope you-all make your way to the East Coast sometime soon. We East Coast people would certainly welcome more pool happenings.

Looking forward to reading all about the Colorado tournament! :yes:

Thank you for the feedback Jam. Every professional pool player that I have sat down and spoken with personally has been nice, respectful, and extremely hard working. Now I have not met all of them but the ones I have had a chance to get to know I would welcome into my home any day.

I'm not sure why this turned into a pool player bashing thread or why so many people feel the need to go way off topic but there has been some good feedback here even if some take it as negative. I know there are players that are not liked by some and some that have done things others look down upon. However I tend to avoid basing my opinions of players based on what others say.

The point of this thread was to find out what promoters do for the professional players when they have events. Do all the players get their expenses covered? If not who do you turn away? I was under the impression that if I were to invite a player to an event I should expect to pay their expenses. However I was recently told that just because your invited to a pool tournament does not mean you expenses are covered.

I have had other players tell me they have the same philosophy as Keith. When someone offers to stake them or cover their expenses they turn it down. When I asked why I was told they do not want to split their winnings or feel indebted to anyone.

The plan is too have two events on the east coast; one this summer and one in the fall. We are still int he process of working out the details for one of the events but the other will be announced at the Nick Varner. I hope you all can come as it would be nice to meet you.

Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[Str8 Shots]

Exactly.
Nick as much as they may or others love him does mainly exhibitions nowadays and must realize he has to schedule around others schedule, not what's best for Nick as far as tourneys go. People don't schedule events around getting Nick there anymore. He rarely plays. Not dogging Nick he is one of my favorite 3 all time players.

Have you ever heard the saying the pot calling the kettle black? Aren't you promoting a tournament the same weekend as Rum Runner? When did you announce your event this year? We announced ours in October. Are you saying it is OK for you all to schedule an event on top of Rum Runner but we shouldn't?

Did your event last year have any impact on Rum Runner? Obviously not and neither did ours. It was still full and had many top name players. Nor were our events impacted by the Rum Runner. All three events were full.

 

[Str8 Shots]

So, in the grand scheme of pool, Str8 Shots is only out for themselves.

They have other Pros under contract. Call it the John Schmidt Tourney and they can hold a Nick V tourney at a later date.

This thread that Str8 nShots, (maybe not so Str8 in the long run), wasn't so much asking for advice on what to do when Pro Players ask to be comped for showing up, as much as advertising that they were holding their tourney over top of another established tourney just to see how much flak they were going to take for it.

Sorry Str8 Shots, after the last thread and now this one, you're not batting exactly 100 in my book. In other words, I don't trust your intentions.

And Kimberly is trying to justify her dates because they supposedly have better payouts than Rum Runners.

Thinly Disguised Threads are the Teacher.

Who said our payouts were better? Form my understanding the Calcutta's at Rum Runner provide a very nice paycheck to the winners. No other tournament going that weekend can say for sure what the Calcutta's will bring in. Rum Runner has been running for a long time and can pretty much average out at this point what the Calcutta will deliver. For any other tournament to say that they will have X money in payouts and base it on their Calcutta's is ridiculous.

 

[Str8 Shots]

Good points! Something sounds fishy doesn't it.....sounds like another excuse to talk down about "pros"....like they should not be allowed to use the same restrooms.

Who are these "pros" anyway??? Why not just name them and not talk generally about all "pros"......it's almost racist to talk about "pros" like they're some kind of subhuman.

It's not uncommon in any business to get expenses paid in full.

Who talked down about professional players? A question was asked about what the normal practice is for professional events in this country. You are way off base with your comments because I never talked down about professionals in anyway.

If it is not uncommon for professionals to get their expenses paid, do you cover all the players expenses? When you've held events in the past did you cover the expenses for all the professionals who asked? Do you turn away the professional that has no sponsors but plays well and bring the guy in that has a big name and many sponsors?

How many tournaments in this country cover the expenses to get professional players to their events? When pitching tournaments to sponsors do you tell them they will have to pay the players entry fees and all expenses to come and play in a tournament that they are putting the money up for in the first play? How has that worked out for getting sponsors?

 

[nb92]

No, AZ isn't saying anything. There aren't many tourneys so why book yours over top of another well established tourney. What does that achieve? The promoter knows the dates, why do it.



Why don't you do it then. Oh, I know, cause there ain't that many tournaments.

Maybe Santa will make it come true for you.

Sorry, had to edit to add some LOLs for you. LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL.

OK ... I will try this a different way... how does a 32 man field on big tables impact a 64 man field on bar tables THAT ALWAYS FILLS UP? So ... according to you we must wait... WAIT until each weekend is taken THEN and ONLY THEN can a tournament have a conflict in schedule LOL LOL LMAO --

So Bar events must look not only at other bar events but big table event schedules? What are your rules? is it pocket billiards only? is snooker included?... is there any geographic region limitations? Should an event in Canada preclude and event in Brownsville, TX ? Is this only a North America thing or Do we consider how this event in CO may impact on-going events in Europe?

GIVE ME A BREAK - your position is nuts ... more events the better -- again it seems there is someone new trying to do something (and if Justin says they are cool it is good enough for me)... and because someone's buddy got kick to the curb for being unprofessional --- AZ gets out the pitch forks and banners.... its a JOKE...

MY EDIT >>>>>>>>>>> :kma::kma::kma:[

 

[Str8 Shots]

Where does the money to cover expenses come from? How do you recover that money?


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The money would have to come from sponsorship and there is no way to recover all the money. Even if you charged a gate you could not raise enough money. It's not like there is a line around buildings at smaller tournaments filled with people waiting to pay a gate. Even at the largest events in this country, the stands aren't always filled with spectators.

If there was a way to recover the money there would be events all over this country weekly. How many promoters have been told by a facility that its not worth it for them to add money to an event? I'm sure there are many.

Many of the companies who sponsor events are doing so to bring recognition to their brand. It may pay off and it may not. It is always a gamble.

 

[PETROBOY]

That's true I asked those questions more to the people who think you should cover costs it's simple math you will spend more then you make. It's to bad that it is that way. It becomes a question of do you really want those players at your tournament and at what cost to you are you willing to spend to have them, if they only show if you cover expenses that is. If more players were like Keith and did some instruction or shows for free and the promoter was the one to gain and cover some of their own expenses it might help get more good tournaments started like the ones str8 shots are doing.

Good luck with everything your doing a great job.


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[BasementDweller]

[...]
The point of this thread was to find out what promoters do for the professional players when they have events. Do all the players get their expenses covered? If not who do you turn away? I was under the impression that if I were to invite a player to an event I should expect to pay their expenses. However I was recently told that just because your invited to a pool tournament does not mean you expenses are covered.

I have had other players tell me they have the same philosophy as Keith. When someone offers to stake them or cover their expenses they turn it down. When I asked why I was told they do not want to split their winnings or feel indebted to anyone.

The plan is too have two events on the east coast; one this summer and one in the fall. We are still int he process of working out the details for one of the events but the other will be announced at the Nick Varner. I hope you all can come as it would be nice to meet you.

Thanks again for the feedback!

As far as covering expenses goes. It appears there's a third option that is being overlooked, or more likey -- just not being talked about.

There's the promoter pays the expenses option.

There's the promoter pays no expenses option.

And then there's the 3rd option. Promoter pays expenses but these expenses come off the top of any winnings. If player doesn't cash in the tournament they are under NO obligation to pay back the expenses. I'm sure you could mess around with the details depending on the player.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[JoeyA]

FORUM Word of the day: ALTRUISTIC

Not always but I call em as I see them sometimes.

I don't see it as much a conspiracy as just not trusting Kimberly 100%, as she likes to put on the good guy act

If you see it differently than I do, cool, as that is what makes the world spin.

My brief and limited experience with Kimberly, coupled with my full life's experiences says that I (you or anyone else) can trust Kimberly 100%. (This is not just a gut feeling.)

JoeyA

 

[Str8 Shots]

As far as covering expenses goes. It appears there's a third option that is being overlooked, or more likey -- just not being talked about.

There's the promoter pays the expenses option.

There's the promoter pays no expenses option.

And then there's the 3rd option. Promoter pays expenses but these expenses come off the top of any winnings. If player doesn't cash in the tournament they are under NO obligation to pay back the expenses. I'm sure you could mess around with the details depending on the player.

Just throwing that out there.

That is an option that I think sponsors would be willing to agree too. If they want the bigger name players at their event and those players have the ability to win cash sponsors might be willing to take the risk. They just need to understand that even the best players in the world don't always place in the money.

Thank you very much for your input.

 

[CreeDo]

So what you seem to be asking is two questions.

1. Why are players requesting that you sweeten the pot by paying their expenses?
2. Why would ANY promoter say yes to these demands, and pay player expenses?

So here are my best guesses on answers.

1. For some players, the tournament math shows Rum Runners is cheaper to attend.

So those players are saying "if you want our business, sweeten the pot".
How could they think that way? Because they see themselves as a commodity,
and feel that promoters are in competition for their time.
So they will go with whoever makes them the best offer.

It's not really about 'fair' or 'does it make financial sense'.

It's like two companies trying to hire someone. I will go to whoever offers me the better deal.
I don't worry about or care if the company can AFFORD to offer me the better deal,
or if I'm being offered benefits that the company normally doesn't offer.

That's not my job to worry about. All I want to know is, who will pay me more?

2. I have no idea honestly. The whole tournament business model doesn't seem very profitable.
If you can get a full field of 32 no matter what, then you don't need to offer special bonuses
to lure players away from Rum Runners. However if you can't fill the field, and you truly
value their business, you may have to.

 

[JoeyA]

As far as covering expenses goes. It appears there's a third option that is being overlooked, or more likey -- just not being talked about.

There's the promoter pays the expenses option.

There's the promoter pays no expenses option.

And then there's the 3rd option. Promoter pays expenses but these expenses come off the top of any winnings. If player doesn't cash in the tournament they are under NO obligation to pay back the expenses. I'm sure you could mess around with the details depending on the player.

Just throwing that out there.

I like your third option quite a lot but it would be similar to the end result of getting wool from a piglet and some voices would most likely rival that of this Guinness Record.
JoeyA

 

[JAM]

I like your third option quite a lot but it would be similar to the end result of getting wool from a piglet and some voices would most likely rival that of this Guinness Record.
JoeyA

I don't think Option No. 3 would be worthy of consideration. I can just envision a player giving it their all, playing their herat out, coming in 3rd place, and the third place monies cover their hotel, entry fee, and expenses. They end up leaving the tournament with empty pockets.

Some may think this is okay, but most people who shoot pool on a regular basis may not think this option is a good one for them.

Remember, at most tournaments, a player must come in first, second, or third place to break even with expenses. Therein likes the rub.

 

[Str8 Shots]

So what you seem to be asking is two questions.

1. Why are players requesting that you sweeten the pot by paying their expenses?
2. Why would ANY promoter say yes to these demands, and pay player expenses?

So here are my best guesses on answers.

1. For some players, the tournament math shows Rum Runners is cheaper to attend.

So those players are saying "if you want our business, sweeten the pot".
How could they think that way? Because they see themselves as a commodity,
and feel that promoters are in competition for their time.
So they will go with whoever makes them the best offer.

It's not really about 'fair' or 'does it make financial sense'.

It's like two companies trying to hire someone. I will go to whoever offers me the better deal.
I don't worry about or care if the company can AFFORD to offer me the better deal,
or if I'm being offered benefits that the company normally doesn't offer.

That's not my job to worry about. All I want to know is, who will pay me more?

2. I have no idea honestly. The whole tournament business model doesn't seem very profitable.
If you can get a full field of 32 no matter what, then you don't need to offer special bonuses
to lure players away from Rum Runners. However if you can't fill the field, and you truly
value their business, you may have to.

Your response makes a lot of sense. However when two companies battle it out over an employee, the employee has to show their value to said companies. There are very few people in business that can walk into a company and say I want X amount of money or I'm going to this other company. When seeking employment most people have to prove that they are a commodity.

Professional pool players see themselves as commodities, as they should, but since their is no single ranking system for promoters to use, how are promoters supposed to justify to outside sponsors the added expense? It's not like the players send resumes with their requests. Even having an impressive resume under your belt does not necessarily make you a player that all companies will want to work with.

Trying to get pool rooms, casinos, or any sponsor for that matter to invest in an event takes a lot of work. Some pool rooms know who all the top players in the industry are but have said they do not think it is a worthwhile investment to have an event out of their room. Other pool room owners have no idea who the top players are but think it would be good for their business to have them.

Also we don't want to lure players away from Rum Runner. That was never even discussed. The only thing discussed was how players coming in for the Wyoming Open the weekend after the Nick Varner might come in early to play in his event.

I'm not worried about the Nick Varner event but I think it is important to evaluate these requests and see what can be done for future events to try to help accommodate some of these players if it makes sense financially.

I think the idea presented by basementdweller has merit. If you let everyone know upfront that if the player places in the top 3 of the tournament they will return their expense money, it might be an agreeable situation for players and sponsors. However I would think the payouts for those 3 places would have to be double what the expenses are for it to be profitable for players.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Str8 Shots]

I don't think Option No. 3 would be worthy of consideration. I can just envision a player giving it their all, playing their herat out, coming in 3rd place, and the third place monies cover their hotel, entry fee, and expenses. They end up leaving the tournament with empty pockets.

Some may think this is okay, but most people who shoot pool on a regular basis may not think this option is a good one for them.

Remember, at most tournaments, a player must come in first, second, or third place to break even with expenses. Therein likes the rub.

The saying great minds think alike comes to mind regarding this post. I basically said the same thing in my response to CreeDo but I do think it could work if sponsors were willing to take the risk and it was profitable for the players.