Would Mosconi had been great if

measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?
I think Mosconi would have been at least the equal of Caras or Crane.
But was that intense learning time with Greenleaf as a young man that made him so much better then his peers?
 
measureman said:
He hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?
I think Mosconi would have been at least the equal of Caras or Crane.
But was that intense learning time with Greenleaf as a young man that made him so much better then his peers?
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Don't really quite understand this? Mosconi was great and above Caras and Crane, not equal to. Crane is one of my favorite all time players as far as his mannerisms, style etc... But I would never say he was better than Mosconi.
Mosconi was a 15 time World Champion, how does Caras or Crane surpass that, to where you say Mosconi would not equal to and even far surpass? In an interview about his toughest opponents he had ever had to face, Irving Crane did not say Caras, he said Mosconi and Greenleaf
 
I knew Crane personally and he considered himself Mosconi's equal on a 5 x 10, while quickly admitting that Mosconi was a very clear favorite on the 4 1/2 x 9.

Willie would have been great no matter what, but one must assume that being around Ralph Greenleaf so much did wonders for Willie's game, just as being around Irving Crane did so much for Mike Sigel's game.
 
flyvirginiaguy said:
Don't really quite understand this? Mosconi was great and above Caras and Crane, not equal to. Crane is one of my favorite all time players as far as his mannerisms, style etc... But I would never say he was better than Mosconi.
Mosconi was a 15 time World Champion, how does Caras or Crane surpass that, to where you say Mosconi would not equal to and even far surpass? In an interview about his toughest opponents he had ever had to face, Irving Crane did not say Caras, he said Mosconi and Greenleaf
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What I was trying to ask was that if Mosconi had not toured and learned from Greenleaf would he have been as good as he became.
 
If you read Willie's autobiography, he explains how much it meant to travel on the road with Ralph as a Brunswick touring pro doing exhibition matches 1 on 1 against Greenleaf.

Willie explains it was Ralph's mental toughness, the "killer"" instinct to just thrash an opponent and never let up....relentless anger was Ralph's approach.....had a wicked temper......hated to lose and would sometimes break into a rage over losing.....but Willie eventually came to beating him consistently and that the two came to understand each other pretty well.

Early on their barnstorming tours, over dinner one evening, Willie asked Ralph about what it takes to be a great champion. Ralph told him "When you stick a knife in your opponents heart, make sure you always twist the blade." Willie knew what Ralph meant and he hated losing even more than Ralph did.

Willie was a hitman....a pure killer in competitive match play...... Mosconi's records will never be matched.....he "dominated" the pool world like no one has ever done before or since.........his opponents were actually worried about missing a shot in a match against Willie.

And Willie wasn't that type of player before he went on the road touring with Ralph. But he developed a competitive edge and focus from playing against a champion like Greenleaf twice a day in exhibition matches around the country touring for Brunswick. People recall Willie from his golden years on TV with ABC Wide World of Sports.........that is not the real Mosconi, just the retired version...go examine Willie Mosconi record during the 1940's & 50's.........He was unstoppable and the game played was the toughest game imaginable.........straight pool on 5'x10' Brunswick tables....not the 4 1/2' x 9'......no siree.......the monster size table and if you've never played on one, you haven't an inkling how much harder these table play......OMG......Imagine an 18' bank shot or a 3 rail kick that travels 18-20 ft on a table before hitting the intended object ball.......5'x10' was the standard championship table size back in the day.
 
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"In 1919, an exhibition match was arranged between six-year-old Mosconi and the reigning World Champion, Ralph Greenleaf. The hall was packed, and though Greenleaf won that match, Mosconi played well enough to draw considerable attention and launch his professional career" (winkipedia)

This was 94 years ago and we have a tendency to forget history.
I believe it's important to keep it alive not dwell in it but not to forget it.
Mosconi--
What a great Champion and ambassador for our sport.
MCP.
 
sjm said:
I knew Crane personally and he considered himself Mosconi's equal on a 5 x 10, while quickly admitting that Mosconi was a very clear favorite on the 4 1/2 x 9.

Willie would have been great no matter what, but one must assume that being around Ralph Greenleaf so much did wonders for Willie's game, just as being around Irving Crane did so much for Mike Sigel's game.
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I did not know or ever meet Crane. But in the early '60s I watched him play in a tournament in NJ and he ran 141 balls and the toughest shot he had was an easy cross side bank. The man could play.
 
measureman said:
He hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?
I think Mosconi would have been at least the equal of Caras or Crane.
But was that intense learning time with Greenleaf as a young man that made him so much better then his peers?
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It certainly shortened the learning curve. You hear the same stories today from many top players. They played good but it didn't happen till they got around really good players when they game came together.


Once you start hanging in a room with good players lots of action like some of the legendary rooms of the past your game just jumps almost over night. Many players have said the same thing with going on the road for the first time. When they come back and match up in their old room they beat players they could not beat before. Something has changed.

It is something just practicing in a vacuum can never make happen. Sorry to say it to all those basement players, but until you get out and around you will only improve so much. There is just something missing. I am sure it was the same thing with Mosconi. In fact the way the story has been told he improved almost by the day on that tour.
 
measureman said:
What I was trying to ask was that if Mosconi had not toured and learned from Greenleaf would he have been as good as he became.
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Well in that case, being around a player of Greenleaf's speed would always help, anyone, speed up their progress to greatness. But many learn it on their own (maybe not as fast). Although Willie was already a great player before road trips with Greenleaf, so more than likely still would have been a great none the less.
 
I think Mosconi probably would have been a different person altogether, and a different style of player had it not been for Greenleaf. But better or worse? It's really hard to say.

When you have something burned into your head at 6 years old, its never going away.
 
A lot of players considered themselves Willie's equal.......Irving Crane's record in head to head play against Willie Mosconi...well, it sucks........but don't feel bad because "everyone else's" records head to head to head against Willie also suck.......aside from a rare, occasional loss, Willie was for all intent and purposes......well, Willie was invincible, especially after he re-married and was able to enjoy a more stable family life.
 
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I certainly agree that some of the Greenleaf magic had to have rubbed off on Willie. How could it not? Makes you wonder if Greenleaf had a mentor or did he get to that lofty level of skill all on his own. I heard some time ago that somebody on the forum was close to finishing a book on Greenleaf. Anyone know about that or was I hallucinating?
 
Probably not, but that isn't to say he wouldn't have still been the best. He wasn't just a notch better than everyone else.
 
Nine ... corner said:
I certainly agree that some of the Greenleaf magic had to have rubbed off on Willie. How could it not? Makes you wonder if Greenleaf had a mentor or did he get to that lofty level of skill all on his own. I heard some time ago that somebody on the forum was close to finishing a book on Greenleaf. Anyone know about that or was I hallucinating?
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I'm not sure if he had a mentor per say (other than his father and his agent(s). But I do think that him being put up against the best players of the day, repeatedly, at a young age, had everything to do with his learning process.

No you weren't hallucinating, JD Dolan is writing a book on Greenleaf. He may actually be finished with it, I haven't spoken with him in a while, but I get the feeling that he would have announced it here if he were done. However, its not 100% historical, and has more to do with telling a story, than telling THE story. Nonetheless JD is a great writer and it I'm sure it will be a great read.

Another gentlemen by the name of John Bowers is producing an "enhanced" matchography of both Greenleaf and Taberski, who were bitter rivals at the time. I've witnessed first hand the depth of his research and it will be a real treat when he is done. Suffice to say Mr. Bowers work has resulted in official records having been changed. More info coming soon.
 
I think if you were to trace the development of any great player you'd likely find some sort of significant mentor.

For example, Stephen Hendry had a similar exhibition series with Steve Davis where Steve stomped the young hendry every night. Surely this had something go do with his development.
 
I think Willie was destined for greatness. Some just are. However, I think his experience with Greenleaf when he was a young lad was instrumental in that development. Perhaps it was the difference between a champion and an absolutely dominant champion and being the GOAT. Also, I've always been fascinated by this era in pool history. Partly because it seems so much a world away from the pool culture of today. What I wouldn't give to have real footage of Mosconi and Greenleaf in their primes. Not just newsreel footage.
 
measureman said:
He hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?
I think Mosconi would have been at least the equal of Caras or Crane.
But was that intense learning time with Greenleaf as a young man that made him so much better then his peers?
Click to expand...


Probably not and I believe he says as much in his biography.

“I had played Greenleaf just once since i was seven years old. That was in the recent tournaments, and I had beaten him 125-55. But I knew from the start that this tour would be the opportunity of a lifetime for me. the 1933 tournament had convinced me that I had all the talent I needed to compete with the best in the world. But it also taught that I had a lot to learn. Now, I was being given the chance to learn it at the side of the greatest pool-shooter who ever played the game. i watched him like a hawk. I learned all the little tricks and profited from the tremendous hoard of knowledge he had accumulated in his career. I also watched for his mistakes. We traveled together for almost four months, but during all that time Ralph never took me aside to offer any instruction. He was cordial enough when we were away from the table, but when the matches began he was a fierce and friendless competitor."

By the end of the tour they stood 57-50 games, but most of Willie's wins came in the final month.

I had breakfast with author JD Dolan at the DCC a couple of years ago and he told me he was working on a book on Greenleaf's life and recounted several stories. It sounds like it'll be a wonderful read.

Lou Figueroa
 
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