Mosconi Cup, Team USA, the real problem still exists.

[Celtic]

All of the talk about the change to young guns and less "ego" on the team has been well and good. "But" the real problem that team USA has failed to be competitive in the last few years has not ever been the attitudes of the team members.

This is the real reason they fail to compete.

China Open Attendance by team members.

Team Europe members/potential members who attended the China Open

Darren Appleton
Thorsten Hohmann
Mika Immonen
Chris Melling
Karl Boyes
Ralf Souquet
Neils Feijen
Nick Ekonomopolous

Team Europe members/potential members who did not attend the China Open

None

Team USA members who attended the China Open

Shane Van Boeing
Corey Deuel
Oscar Dominguez
Jeremy Sossei

Team USA members picked by Mark Wilson who did not attend the China Open

Justin Bergman
Justin Hall
Brandon Shuff
John Schmidt

Every single one of the players who are likely to be on team Europe compete in the world class events. This was one of the toughest fields of the year and it is events like the China Open that the top pros always play to stay at the top of the game and hone their skills against the elite players of the world.

4 of the 8 people on team USA attended the event. Where were the other 4? I know people can have things they need to do, or they can have issues with money or not see it as a good bet/investment, but EVERY player on team Europe went and competed and they will ALL be stronger players for having done it.

If money is an issue, then where is Justin Bergman? He just won a huge $2000 added bar box event, he could have used that as a stake to get into more world class events abroad and finally come out of the shadows and honed his game against the best of the best, and that WOULD help his game reach the next level.

Where is John Schmidt? I mean at all... You hardly see his name on "any" events of late. How is this guy going to compete at the elite level against the best players in Europe when he has not even played much pool at all over the last 2 years? I would have thought getting chosen for the team would get him commited to playing again and get him out there pushing his game back up near the top of the world, instead he said it was a great honor getting chosen, and I guess we will all now see him in December? Yeah he is sure going to be competitive...

Justin Hall? Has he "EVER" played in a world class event? He might have huge talent but he is going up against guys like Karl Boyes and Melling who have every bit as much talent as he does and who are going to play WAY more top level world class events against world class competition, that is going to make him a HUGE underdog in each match he plays. He might be able to still squeak out a short set win, but it will be a clear upset and over the long haul trying to buck the odds over and over again is a losing bet.

Brandon Shuff? Again, lots of talent, potential, and no world class tournament experience abroad against elite fields full of the best players in the world.

I am sure the half of the field that went to the China Open gained valuable experience, they came away from the event stronger no matter what their outcome was, they can build on their success and failures in that event and they saw the absolutely top elite level that exists in the sport and know now where they need to be to compare to it.

It was ALWAYS a lack of commitment to world class competition that led to the downfall of Team USA in the Mosconi Cup. It was the semi retirement of Archer, Morris (who was actually at the China Open this time), Deuel, and the other seasoned pros that let Team Europe catch up to them and pass them by. If the top American players had kept as focused on the game as the guys on Team Europe and went into every competition and focused on it like they did then the top pros on Team America would have remained right there with their European counterparts.

This has always been the problem with Team USA, and if these young guys who Mark Wilson is trying to make into a "team" are not actually competing at the elite level that the guys from Team Europe are then Team USA is doomed. Going to a day trip to talk to navy seals is awesome, but you know what would have helped team USA better? If EVERY player on the MC team went to the China Open and competed in it and supported each other during it and they ALL came away with the battle hardening it would have caused.

Mike Dechaine is no different. He came on here asking why he was not on the team, right after a big win where he beat Mika in a final. Well after Mika lost that final he went to the China Open and has played great pool against the best players in the world and will come back stronger because of it. Where is Mike? If you are the #2 player in the USA why the heck are you not out there competing at the top level that the sport offers and putting yourself up against the best of the best when the chances arise to do so? That is the way you become the best, you need to get out there and show the WORLD how good you are, not your little neck of the woods at home. Go win one or two of these things in a year and there is no way you won't be chosen for the team next year regardless of attitude. There is a point where a guy has simply too much success to say no to, but you did not even go over there and try... That makes your omission less of a thing IMO because it shows a lack of commitment to really stretch your legs and put yourself out there at the top end of competition, and guess what, every single guy on Team Europe did that and were there.

 

[pooler]

The above is all so true, especially with very few World Events this year.

Truly, according to WPA schedule, absence from the China Open means losing 20-25% opportunities to truly competing on a World Stage (depending on a template for calculations).

There is a World Teams Championship in Beijing in August. Excellent opportunity for good team play seasoning. I wonder if there are plans for the USA Team to go there; according to which criteria the USA Team would be chosen for such event ?

Is there any info on this ?

 

[Magog30]

It should be team North America vs Europe. Alex Pagulayan would be an easy pick and great for ratings and Morra is the kind of Young Gun Mark Wilson is looking for. Hohmann wasn't even on team Europe last year, so look out USA.

 

[CJRackley]

I find it hard to believe, that in the wealthiest country in the world, a country with 350 plus million people, that no one would sponsor Mike to China. Arguably the #2 Rotation pool player in the United States should be able to attend this match, if he wanted to.

 

[nobcitypool]

I find it hard to believe, that in the wealthiest country in the world, a country with 350 plus million people, that no one would sponsor Mike to China. Arguably the #2 Rotation pool player in the United States should be able to attend this match, if he wanted to.

If it is such a good deal, get out your checkbook. Seriously though, the trip to China isn't cheap. The reason he isn't attracting sponsors might be the same reason he didn't make the final 8 being considered for the Moscou Cup Team. Someone puts up the money to sponsor him, plasters their company name all over MD and then he acts like an ass. Even if he wins, it could still could be a bad deal for the sponsor. Look at how many sponsors pulled the plug on Tiger Woods when he got caught screwing around on his wife. MD isn't a Tiger Woods either.

 

[9 ball]

To quote a movie "sometimes if you're any kinda man you gotta step up, step out & see what f***k you got".

Team USA simply haven't done that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Celtic]

If it is such a good deal, get out your checkbook. Seriously though, the trip to China isn't cheap.

It is no cheaper for Mika or Darren or Thorsten or anyone else on Team Europe either.

Mike "JUST" won more for winning a tournament then the trip to China would have cost. He could have rolled some of those winnings and stepped out and tried to make a statement with that money, he did not, he sat at home and did nothing while the true professional pool players in the world competed against each other half a world away.

While a trip to China might cost a lot the loss of experience and chances like this are going to cost Mike a lot more. He and others like to see him as a young up and rising star in the game. News flash Mike, you are not that young anymore. There are players who won World Championships when they were 10 years younger then you are now. In less then a decade and a half you will be over 40 and take a look at what that age does to most of the top players in the world and how many of them stay at the peak of the competitive pool world.

Mike has a small amount of time left to actually get out there and compete and rise to the top of the game if he truly wants to become an elite world class player that will be remembered. If he thinks he has what it takes to do so then the clock is REALLY ticking on him, there are guys his age and younger who have more experience, bigger wins, higher rankings, and who are considered vastly better players on the world stage.

The cost of going to the China Open is high, the cost to Mike's career as a professional pool player and the cost to his ability and chance to do as much as he can do with it when he skips going to events like this is FAR higher. He should be in his prime, at the peak of his game atm. He is the age most people in cue sports peak. With him it seems like everyone is waiting for the next year or two for him to "get there". He does not have the time and he is not that young. It is now or never for him and atm he is choosing "never".

 

[Cardigan Kid]

This is why the Turning Stone in mid September will be HUGE to watch. All of the Mosconi Team members in action - Euro and USA. I'll be sweating every minute of it. What an intense six months this will be.

Great thread, very valid points by the OP.

 

[philfrom]

Why should anyone care if they are the MC team or not, Its just another Tournament. Its really not that big a deal...lol

 

[Nostroke]

Team USA themselves know they have little chance in this years MC and the same for the China Open. They are trying to build a young TEAM that will develop over a few years to be a competitive force. IMHO of course

 

[one stroke]

It is no cheaper for Mika or Darren or Thorsten or anyone else on Team Europe either.

Mike "JUST" won more for winning a tournament then the trip to China would have cost. He could have rolled some of those winnings and stepped out and tried to make a statement with that money, he did not, he sat at home and did nothing while the true professional pool players in the world competed against each other half a world away.

While a trip to China might cost a lot the loss of experience and chances like this are going to cost Mike a lot more. He and others like to see him as a young up and rising star in the game. News flash Mike, you are not that young anymore. There are players who won World Championships when they were 10 years younger then you are now. In less then a decade and a half you will be over 40 and take a look at what that age does to most of the top players in the world and how many of them stay at the peak of the competitive pool world.

Mike has a small amount of time left to actually get out there and compete and rise to the top of the game if he truly wants to become an elite world class player that will be remembered. If he thinks he has what it takes to do so then the clock is REALLY ticking on him, there are guys his age and younger who have more experience, bigger wins, higher rankings, and who are considered vastly better players on the world stage.

The cost of going to the China Open is high, the cost to Mike's career as a professional pool player and the cost to his ability and chance to do as much as he can do with it when he skips going to events like this is FAR higher. He should be in his prime, at the peak of his game atm. He is the age most people in cue sports peak. With him it seems like everyone is waiting for the next year or two for him to "get there". He does not have the time and he is not that young. It is now or never for him and atm he is choosing "never".

Mike hardy one close to what a trip to China would have cost him,, and sorry but there is no comparing playing in the China Open and this yrs MC ,, it's apples and oranges
The MC is a team event shorter races and in a much differant eviorment


1

 

[one stroke]

Team USA themselves know they have little chance in this years MC and the same for the China Open. They are trying to build a young TEAM that will develop over a few years to be a competitive force. IMHO of course

Bingo we have a winner,,,




1

 

[real bartram]

All of the talk about the change to young guns and less "ego" on the team has been well and good. "But" the real problem that team USA has failed to be competitive in the last few years has not ever been the attitudes of the team members.

This is the real reason they fail to compete.

China Open Attendance by team members.

Team Europe members/potential members who attended the China Open

Darren Appleton
Thorsten Hohmann
Mika Immonen
Chris Melling
Karl Boyes
Ralf Souquet
Neils Feijen
Nick Ekonomopolous

Team Europe members/potential members who did not attend the China Open

None

Team USA members who attended the China Open

Shane Van Boeing
Corey Deuel
Oscar Dominguez
Jeremy Sossei

Team USA members picked by Mark Wilson who did not attend the China Open

Justin Bergman
Justin Hall
Brandon Shuff
John Schmidt

Every single one of the players who are likely to be on team Europe compete in the world class events. This was one of the toughest fields of the year and it is events like the China Open that the top pros always play to stay at the top of the game and hone their skills against the elite players of the world.

4 of the 8 people on team USA attended the event. Where were the other 4? I know people can have things they need to do, or they can have issues with money or not see it as a good bet/investment, but EVERY player on team Europe went and competed and they will ALL be stronger players for having done it.

If money is an issue, then where is Justin Bergman? He just won a huge $2000 added bar box event, he could have used that as a stake to get into more world class events abroad and finally come out of the shadows and honed his game against the best of the best, and that WOULD help his game reach the next level.

Where is John Schmidt? I mean at all... You hardly see his name on "any" events of late. How is this guy going to compete at the elite level against the best players in Europe when he has not even played much pool at all over the last 2 years? I would have thought getting chosen for the team would get him commited to playing again and get him out there pushing his game back up near the top of the world, instead he said it was a great honor getting chosen, and I guess we will all now see him in December? Yeah he is sure going to be competitive...

Justin Hall? Has he "EVER" played in a world class event? He might have huge talent but he is going up against guys like Karl Boyes and Melling who have every bit as much talent as he does and who are going to play WAY more top level world class events against world class competition, that is going to make him a HUGE underdog in each match he plays. He might be able to still squeak out a short set win, but it will be a clear upset and over the long haul trying to buck the odds over and over again is a losing bet.

Brandon Shuff? Again, lots of talent, potential, and no world class tournament experience abroad against elite fields full of the best players in the world.

I am sure the half of the field that went to the China Open gained valuable experience, they came away from the event stronger no matter what their outcome was, they can build on their success and failures in that event and they saw the absolutely top elite level that exists in the sport and know now where they need to be to compare to it.

It was ALWAYS a lack of commitment to world class competition that led to the downfall of Team USA in the Mosconi Cup. It was the semi retirement of Archer, Morris (who was actually at the China Open this time), Deuel, and the other seasoned pros that let Team Europe catch up to them and pass them by. If the top American players had kept as focused on the game as the guys on Team Europe and went into every competition and focused on it like they did then the top pros on Team America would have remained right there with their European counterparts.

This has always been the problem with Team USA, and if these young guys who Mark Wilson is trying to make into a "team" are not actually competing at the elite level that the guys from Team Europe are then Team USA is doomed. Going to a day trip to talk to navy seals is awesome, but you know what would have helped team USA better? If EVERY player on the MC team went to the China Open and competed in it and supported each other during it and they ALL came away with the battle hardening it would have caused.

Mike Dechaine is no different. He came on here asking why he was not on the team, right after a big win where he beat Mika in a final. Well after Mika lost that final he went to the China Open and has played great pool against the best players in the world and will come back stronger because of it. Where is Mike? If you are the #2 player in the USA why the heck are you not out there competing at the top level that the sport offers and putting yourself up against the best of the best when the chances arise to do so? That is the way you become the best, you need to get out there and show the WORLD how good you are, not your little neck of the woods at home. Go win one or two of these things in a year and there is no way you won't be chosen for the team next year regardless of attitude. There is a point where a guy has simply too much success to say no to, but you did not even go over there and try... That makes your omission less of a thing IMO because it shows a lack of commitment to really stretch your legs and put yourself out there at the top end of competition, and guess what, every single guy on Team Europe did that and were there.

Most of our team plays good 1 pocket
9 ball is not out teams best game

 

[nobcitypool]

The question I responded to was why someone didn't step up and sponsor Mike to play in China. I'm not sure what the prize pool is but I'm going to speculate that Mike would have to finish in the top 5, possibly better, to just break even on costs if he would do it out of his own pocket. It would be a struggle for Mike to finish in the top 5, against that field, were the tournament in his home State. If you really want to give China your best shot, I would say you'd want to get there at least 3 days early in order for your body to adjust to the time change and to get over the jet lag. That adds to the expense.

Mike may simply be making a pragmatic decision that many professional pool players have to make, i.e., it doesn't make any economic sense to make the trip to China.

It is no cheaper for Mika or Darren or Thorsten or anyone else on Team Europe either.

Mike "JUST" won more for winning a tournament then the trip to China would have cost. He could have rolled some of those winnings and stepped out and tried to make a statement with that money, he did not, he sat at home and did nothing while the true professional pool players in the world competed against each other half a world away.

While a trip to China might cost a lot the loss of experience and chances like this are going to cost Mike a lot more. He and others like to see him as a young up and rising star in the game. News flash Mike, you are not that young anymore. There are players who won World Championships when they were 10 years younger then you are now. In less then a decade and a half you will be over 40 and take a look at what that age does to most of the top players in the world and how many of them stay at the peak of the competitive pool world.

Mike has a small amount of time left to actually get out there and compete and rise to the top of the game if he truly wants to become an elite world class player that will be remembered. If he thinks he has what it takes to do so then the clock is REALLY ticking on him, there are guys his age and younger who have more experience, bigger wins, higher rankings, and who are considered vastly better players on the world stage.

The cost of going to the China Open is high, the cost to Mike's career as a professional pool player and the cost to his ability and chance to do as much as he can do with it when he skips going to events like this is FAR higher. He should be in his prime, at the peak of his game atm. He is the age most people in cue sports peak. With him it seems like everyone is waiting for the next year or two for him to "get there". He does not have the time and he is not that young. It is now or never for him and atm he is choosing "never".

 

[itsfroze]

Why should anyone care if they are the MC team or not, Its just another Tournament. Its really not that big a deal...lol

You're right, enjoy your league night this week ! :thumbup:

 

[leto1776]

So true. All this talk about improving the "image" of team U.S.A. Is really just all talk, with no substance.

 

[nobcitypool]

So true. All this talk about improving the "image" of team U.S.A. Is really just all talk, with no substance.

There's some incredible gaps in whatever logic you used to form that conclusion.

 

[Celtic]

Mike may simply be making a pragmatic decision that many professional pool players have to make, i.e., it doesn't make any economic sense to make the trip to China.

I went over the pragmatic reasons for not going to the event in the first post. The reality is the entire of professionals from Europe saw the value in going to the event beyond simply the monetary reasons and they went and they got the international exposure and the experience and they will be stronger players because of it.

Anyone has the choice to be pragmatic and not compete at the highest level in pool. But the whole idea of a bunch of USA players who do not commit to pool 100% like the Euros do beating that team at the Mosconi Cup is nothing more then a bunch of lip service and hype. They have no chance because they do not treat the sport like the professional competition it truly is and how a true professional really needs to play it to be at the elite level.

It does not matter how many trips to visit sick kids in the hospital they do or how many dinners they eat as a team during the event or how well they have honed their high fiving skills. It is a team of USA players who largely do not commit to professional elite pool anywhere near to the same level as their European counterparts.

That is why they have no chance and all of the stuff Mark Wilson and the "team" have been doing does not make up for the fact that the USA Mosconi Cup team members are simply not as committed to playing professional pool as the Euro team members are.

If Mark Wilson wanted to get a group together to actually compete against the Euros THE most important question he should have asked the prospective players is "Are you committed to playing a full season of full time professional pool at the highest level and going to all of the major events both in the USA and abroad this year to hone your skills before the Mosconi Cup?" Clearly he has people on the team that had absolutely no plan to truly focus on professional pool to that degree.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Mike may simply be making a pragmatic decision that many professional pool players have to make, i.e., it doesn't make any economic sense to make the trip to China.

So, I am going to do a, Yeah Well.

Yeah Well, Celtic wasn't talking about the monetary benefits of Mike going and winning anything, but the experience gained in competing there.

It costs him money to gain the experience, win or lose. Lose, and he is still a winner in terms of experience gained.

Some people pay for Post Secondary education, many don't. Pay now, work hard, and gain the benefits of the expense and hard work later.

Laze around now and you get to watch people pass you on the free way in their Mercedes later.

If it is or was in fact a conscience decision not to go to China because of the money it would have cost, Celtic was saying that it was a wrong decision. And I agree, specially after Mike's thread to do better and what he can to make the team next year.

Probably the first in a line of wrong decisions on Mike's behalf.

For one, think of how that may have looked in Mark's eyes to see that happen. Mark might have thought, see, Mike is seriously trying.

Now he might be thinking, A Golden Opportunity missed.

At least there were a few other players who didn't think that way.

 

[PINKLADY]

CELTIC, don't sugar-coat it.

EUR are more well-travelled, well-versed, well-off. down here, we call ém "rounders". (they "get around", cause they are committed & devoted - to themselves, the Game, & their country/peers).

isn't it important to play everyone @ everywhere (especially your future opponents), so that you have as much experience as possible & you know HOW they play @ where?

EDIT - tickets to China are $1100 from NYC.