Guns and Cues, Show us your Piece
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windKnott
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It's disconcerting that there's a prevailing undercurrent of Gun ownership paranoia. It's a shame that some live in states that are openly anti-gun. ( I use to live in one if the worst, Illinois years ago) Its difficult for me to relate anymore living in one if the most Gun Friendly states. Almost everybody I know carries, as Florida now has over 1 million CCW permits issued. ( more everyday!) I realize there still are areas in Fl that have some uninformed police but it's not uncommon when we shoot in the rock mines for a Sheriff to stop by and take a few shots with us. Our 2nd ammendment rights need to be protected & people in anti-gun states need to VOTE! One should never be apprehensive to express their right to arms. (Thrives I can handle myself)
No. Ever. In fact, I don't know anyone that does that with home defense in mind.
I hope the "gun in every room" idea didn't come from a movie?
Eric
his mentality for me, as a single woman (or mother), was that no matter what room i was in - if someone broke in - i had protection at almost arm's length.
LOL. You should rethink this or possibly talk to someone that is better informed.
Eric
Based on that, I'm attaching ballistics results from POF's P-308 model, since I saw one or two other POF ARs in this thread. Surprisingly, to me at least, was the 14.5" barrel executed the best. Test was bench-rest at 100 yards with 3-shot groups.
With the Hornady 155gr TAP, they had one group at .038" and it went as high as .500" when used with a suppressor. Without, it was still 1/4 MOA to 1/2 MOA with the groups. Between the 110gr and 168gr rounds, the results ranged from 1/4 MOA to 1/2 MOA, from best to worst.
When I found this ballistics report (AFTER I BOUGHT MY 20" POF-P308), I called Central FL Gun and Tactical who only sell POFs exclusively and asked WTF (basically) because I would think a longer barrel would produce more accurate results. Their response was that shorter barrels produce less "flex" or probably what you're referring to as barrel whip when fired, which results in much tighter groups, up to about 600 yards or so. After that, longer barrels result in sometimes faster muzzle velocity and more stable bullet spins, which means (I'm guessing) that the bullet starts to tumble much later, providing much more accuracy at longer ranges -- >1000yds and such.
I'm going off of memory and I'm probably the least experienced in this thread, so if I'm wrong, I apologize.
The result of all of this is I just shipped my 20" POF P-308 back to POF to have them swap out my 20" barrel for a 14.5". They should get it tomorrow, according to UPS tracking. Obviously, I'm going bat-shit waiting to get my gun back.
I tend to make snap decisions with this stuff, so I'm not sure if it's the move or not -- but after talking to that guy in FL and after seeing this ballistics report, I insta-sent my gun back to get the 14.5" barrel.
Then again, I'm also the same guy who blew through $250 worth of .308 ammo trying to get my g'damn scope zeroed in before realizing the scope was moving somehow with my mount. Obviously, once I calmed down and breathed in a #($*)@#ing paper bag for 15 minutes to get my heart rate back to normal and re-set the scope within the mount by tightening the ever-loving-shit (evenly, 1/4 turn per caddy-corner screw of course) out of the screws and using more blue Locktite than what's possibly reasonable, I was able to zero in my scope.
Like I said, I'm a total beginner so I have to deal with shit like that. That said, I'm learning at a BREAK-NECK speed and have put some very, very nice groups together. Before I sent my gun back, I was shooting out the center of the bullseye at 100yds like it was the BB-gun game at the county fair. I've had 3 or 4 shot groups that pretty much just made a ragged hole and didn't even clover leaf....BUT.... I did that from an iron sled, so that clearly doesn't count... too much like scoring high in bowling with the gutter bumpers in.
I hate to say it and I hope I'm not flamed for saying it, but shooting ARs is more fun than shooting pool. To me, it's not even close. I just have to get over the sticker-shock of ammo and learn to load my own. Which, I'll be beating Hu up for info shortly.
Dave
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I definitely wouldn't have sent that barrel back.
it would shoot 1 moa np and did occasionally shoot tightly. the problem was, under identical conditions and shot from the sled...my friends 14.5 p308 shot way more consistent, which is what lead me to google stuff and how I found the ballistics report.
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ok, enlighten me - cause i posed the question to yáll for a reason.
i will add, that it came in very handy having the HK 2 feet from me when pinned up against a wall in my living room. vs needing to call a timeout, so that i could run upstairs & unlock the safe.
Look, I'm sure this isn't gonna change your views, so I'll just throw out a couple of thoughts-
*literally having a gun in every room is a goldmine for a burglar. Especially if you're not home.
*can be a liability and a disaster in teh making if you have guests or kids
*if hidden so remotely as to not being easily accessible to guest...well...it aint that accessible to you either
OK, that was more than a couple. Lastly, if you were truly (with all drama included) pinned against the wall, where you couldn't move, you had to be extremely lucky to be within 2 feet of your weapon. For that matter, if the perp was strong enough to overpower you and hold you against the wall, you would be lucky that s/he didn't take the gun you are reaching for, from you, and smack your teeth out with it.
If you're that adamant about being at the height of readiness, just wear a gun on your hip, fer crissakes.
Eric
yes. which is why i took all 3 above into account. and i was lucky. so was my 3yr old son. and my ex didn't get out the door with him.
thank you for your help.
fun guns
Dave,
I referred to my AR's as rimfires on steroids because I tended to blast with them like rimfires. Still considerable stopping power, no problem taking a deer for example if that was your thing but not unpleasant to shoot. Hate to tell you but that 14.5 inch barrel may be just that, unpleasant! Serious noise factor by secondhand reports. Unless they want a chunk of money difference I would have them ship your twenty inch barrel back too. A simple wrench and you can swap AR barrels yourself.
Brownell's is your friend, make them send you a hard copy of their catalog to drool over, I think they charge about four bucks if it doesn't come with a purchase. Take a quick look on the net site, I'm sure you can find something you need! :grin-square::grin-square:
They seem to have combined with Sinclair's in some manner and I have told both order desks to just send me one each from the catalog in the past when I got tired of ordering everything in the catalogs one at a time! Do have to admit I was joking but I have one small box with probably a thousand bucks worth of stuff from brownies and a handful of boxes of stuff from them besides that. I think Sinclair's counted on my weekly call to make payroll.
Reloading really isn't hard, a few routes to take but I like doing things by hand in mellow mode. I can load 300-400 rounds an hour while watching John Wayne on TV. Well, I could when I had a TV! I had a junk end table which was a handy item. I clamped my powder measure stand to it sometimes and sat my arbor press on it all the time. That is enough to reload along with a set of scales to learn how many clicks to set your powder measure at and a set of inline dies. Only later will you perhaps feel the need for the niceties for making better and better ammo.
I started reloading at age fifteen with a six dollar Lee kit and a seventeen dollar powder scale. Loaded a thousand rounds or so of 44mag before I started upgrading.
Hu
Dave,
I referred to my AR's as rimfires on steroids because I tended to blast with them like rimfires. Still considerable stopping power, no problem taking a deer for example if that was your thing but not unpleasant to shoot. Hate to tell you but that 14.5 inch barrel may be just that, unpleasant! Serious noise factor by secondhand reports. Unless they want a chunk of money difference I would have them ship your twenty inch barrel back too. A simple wrench and you can swap AR barrels yourself.
Brownell's is your friend, make them send you a hard copy of their catalog to drool over, I think they charge about four bucks if it doesn't come with a purchase. Take a quick look on the net site, I'm sure you can find something you need! :grin-square::grin-square:
They seem to have combined with Sinclair's in some manner and I have told both order desks to just send me one each from the catalog in the past when I got tired of ordering everything in the catalogs one at a time! Do have to admit I was joking but I have one small box with probably a thousand bucks worth of stuff from brownies and a handful of boxes of stuff from them besides that. I think Sinclair's counted on my weekly call to make payroll.
Reloading really isn't hard, a few routes to take but I like doing things by hand in mellow mode. I can load 300-400 rounds an hour while watching John Wayne on TV. Well, I could when I had a TV! I had a junk end table which was a handy item. I clamped my powder measure stand to it sometimes and sat my arbor press on it all the time. That is enough to reload along with a set of scales to learn how many clicks to set your powder measure at and a set of inline dies. Only later will you perhaps feel the need for the niceties for making better and better ammo.
I started reloading at age fifteen with a six dollar Lee kit and a seventeen dollar powder scale. Loaded a thousand rounds or so of 44mag before I started upgrading.
Hu
You're correct... way louder, but not annoying with my ear protection and if the next guy is using shitty foam plugs... ahh well. They're swapping the barrel for free basically, other than $60 for labor, so I'm ok with it... considering I gained on the wear I put on my old barrel.
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Florida has some of the most gun owner friendly laws as far as ownership goes. But when it come to using the gun some of the toughest gun laws in the country with mandatory sentencing. In other words, it is easy to own a gun in Florida and just as easy to find yourself in prison for under the The 10-20-Life law. If you don't already you need to get this book if you are going to own and carry in Florida.
http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/
Regarding that million CCW's permits floating around Florida. I have a friend who gives the classes and most are just people who get it on a lark. A bunch of girl friends will show up or a husband and wife and so on. Many have never owned a gun and will probably even after getting the permit will ever buy one. Of the actual gun owners only a fraction of 1% will actually walk around with a gun on them. In Florida getting those permits is kind of a fad, people do it because they can and it is promoted by places like Bass Pro shops and people who make a buck giving the classes. The media would like you to believe there are a million people in Florida walking around with guns but nothing could be farther from the truth.
I know you may make a comment like "Better be tried by 12 then carried by 6". But ask the girl who fired a warning shot into a wall who got 20 years. Her case is being review right now and she may get a new trial but I think she will now be facing 60 years if she is found guilty. Lot of risk carrying a gun, you could lose everything you have trying to get yourself out of trouble you got into. I am just saying, you know what I mean, be careful.
Now having said all that, I am watching a movie right now called "Insidious". At one point in the movie the father is going through the house as he hears sounds. It is dark and scary and he arms himself with a fireplace poker as he goes from room to room. I am yelling at the TV, "Why Don't You Have an F'n Gun"?
I mention this movie mainly because it is on right now, but also you don't have to have much of an imagination to see how frightening it could be to find yourself in that kind of situation. Now in the movie a gun would not help much as the thing is some kind of evil spirit but I honestly could not sleep if I didn't have my guns in the house. I could not imagine a man not having the ability to protect himself and his family. Not a debate just a comment.
I am going to elaborate a little just so people don't think I am totally a nut. I have a big old house with 14 rooms, quite a few more if I count everything beyond the main structure and lots of windows everywhere. It was built in the 1920's. It's a dump that should have been torn down 50 years ago but it has been in the family and now I have it. I would say it is easy to break into.
I may be a little paranoid, call me what you want, but when I am in bed you can't get to me. I have inside dead-bolt locks on doors that lead to other parts of the house. In other words, if you get into my house anywhere other then through my actual bedroom windows, you would have to begin breaking down doors to get to my bedroom. Meantime I am in there pretty well armed.
So to anyone reading this, just use a little of your imagination and before you go to sleep tonight think about what you would do if you were woken up and realized,
"There is someone in the house".
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My brother lived out in the country when he was attending Florida U. in Gainesville. Somewhere he acquired a sawed off (I think he did the sawing) 10 Gauge double barreled shot gun. My eyes got real big when I saw that thing. I knew my brother was serious about defending himself and his property. I had no doubt he would use it if the circumstance came up. He was a pretty fearless guy, not a wimp like me. 
Meanwhile I was carrying a tiny .25 Browning in my back pocket. I always liked the element of surprise, kind of like a sucker punch, which wins most fights.
Meanwhile I was carrying a tiny .25 Browning in my back pocket. I always liked the element of surprise, kind of like a sucker punch, which wins most fights.
tiny beats none!
Jay,
Lots of people take the .22's and .25's lightly, but not when they are pointed at them! My carry guns got smaller and smaller until I got down to a little lightweight .380 I could forget was in my pocket. I could still hit somebody at any distance I needed to. For the house I was content with a .45 or the AR with varmint bullets in it that wouldn't penetrate brick veneer walls to be a hazard to people in other homes.
A shotgun is fine but most people think they can just point it and count on spread to hit someone. At most inside the home ranges the shot spread is too little to matter. My sawed off to legal length 870 only spread 00 about a foot wide at twenty-five yards with no choke at all. At twenty-five feet the spread was only a few inches. It was an excellent theft preventive propped up in the corner of my office in the daytime! Racking a slide is an attention getter at night. The sound carries well and often just racking a shotgun is enough to persuade someone they don't want to play. Of course if they want to play you are ready.
Hu
My brother lived out in the country when he was attending Florida U. in Gainesville. Somewhere he acquired a sawed off (I think he did the sawing) 10 Gauge double barreled shot gun. My eyes got real big when I saw that thing. I knew my brother was serious about defending himself and his property. I had no doubt he would use it if the circumstance came up. He was a pretty fearless guy, not a wimp like me.
Meanwhile I was carrying a tiny .25 Browning in my back pocket. I always liked the element of surprise, kind of like a sucker punch, which wins most fights.
Jay,
Lots of people take the .22's and .25's lightly, but not when they are pointed at them! My carry guns got smaller and smaller until I got down to a little lightweight .380 I could forget was in my pocket. I could still hit somebody at any distance I needed to. For the house I was content with a .45 or the AR with varmint bullets in it that wouldn't penetrate brick veneer walls to be a hazard to people in other homes.
A shotgun is fine but most people think they can just point it and count on spread to hit someone. At most inside the home ranges the shot spread is too little to matter. My sawed off to legal length 870 only spread 00 about a foot wide at twenty-five yards with no choke at all. At twenty-five feet the spread was only a few inches. It was an excellent theft preventive propped up in the corner of my office in the daytime! Racking a slide is an attention getter at night. The sound carries well and often just racking a shotgun is enough to persuade someone they don't want to play. Of course if they want to play you are ready.
Hu
Fact of the matter is, you don't KNOW how many people in the state of Florida are carrying guns...and neither do the people that amass statistics.
You were only citing CCW license holders, but there are hundreds (if not thousands) of gang-bangers ILLEGALLY carrying firearms. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands (due to the size of the state) of your everyday variety of good-ol-boys (read: rednecks) without a license to carry that still have a handgun somewhere on their body or at least in their cars/trucks.
People were carrying firearms with them/on them way before there was such a thing as CCW permits...and those kind of people still exist today. Many are outspoken about it, but most that carry illegally are tight-lipped about it (wisely so).
I live in Texas, and getting a CHL (concealed handgun license) isn't much of a problem as long as you're sane and haven't committed any felonies. With that in mind, I cannot count the number of friends/family/general acquaintances that I know that carry a firearm without the license.
Truth is...we can never really know the ACTUAL statistics of how many people are walking around with a firearm. It's only an educated guess at best.
Maniac
I am really referring to that million number that is always thrown around, It does give a false impression. I carry a gun only occasionally but will admit to having carried a gun on and off long before it was legal.
Also back then the laws were not as tough as today. Today in Florida with mandatory minimum sentencing laws, walking around with a gun exposes you to some real possible liability both civil and criminal.
Just produce that gun and point it at someone and you will find yourself in jail. Flash it or even verbaly threaten someone that you have a gun and you will find the same result. Even if you can get an attorney and get out of it you will be out tens of thousands of dollars. People carry a gun because they can and from some false belief they are protecting themselves.
The truth is, the greatest risk they are exposed to is the carrying of that gun. It could cost them everything they have and everything they ever will have with just one stupid unthinking act. It is like a trick being played on the people in Florida.
They make it easy to own and carry a gun then have laws that if you do, you have a good chance of finding yourself in jail. Florida by no means has liberal gun laws, quite the opposite.
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It says "Use a gun during a CRIME." No trick being played and having a gun legally doesn't make a law abiding citizen turn into Dirty Harry anymore than putting a bible in the hands of a gang-banger turns them into Jim Bakker.
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