Would players of today wipe the floor against past players....

[BugHunter]

Guys like SVB or Efren, would these guys punish the players of the past such as Fats, Greenleaf and Mosconi?

I think they would clean their clocks. Might have to buy them a cab ride home though.

I've watched old videos of pool and some of them in today's standards would be your typical league player.

This is nothing impressive...compared to today's standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKw56oAA-E

I consider Fats to have been nothing more than a B player even at his best. He relied upon sharking people to win. He could smash balls around and make one here and there, but wasn't what I'd refer to as a player. Mosconi or Greenleaf, et al. I think they were great players in their day, but I'd be willing to bet any player of today who wins pro tournaments would positively undress those guys. It would not even be fun to watch.

In every sport / game known to man, records get broken every year, players get better, it's just a fact of evolution. It is no different in pool. For a great example, take a look at pro hockey sometime on Espn classic. Watch a SC finals from 25 years ago, then watch current teams. The players of old will look like they were playing in 4 inches of mud. The game is so fast now they would be like statues out there on the ice. Obsolete fixed fortifications as George Patton would have said it. :lol:

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

A recent proposition regarding Olympic sprinters was discussed on NPR. They compared the speed of Jesse Owens gold metal run compared to the speeds of current gold medalists.....specifically Bolt.

They noted that had you compared Jesse Owens time to those of the most recent Olympics, then he would have finished dead last in the field. But there is a caveat.

In the old days they didn't have the foot brace that current sprinters use to get greater thrust off the mark. In the old days they simply dug out a small divot for leverage. The shoes were probably heavier too.

They noted that had Jesse Owens used the same equipment in getting off the mark as Bolt used, then Jesse Owens would have finished in 2nd place just a fraction behind Bolt.

It seems that human skill has neither improved nor diminished significantly in the last 80 years, but rather the equipment has made all the difference.

I really believe this is true in pool. There are more world class players today (because instruction is everywhere - not so much even 30 years ago).

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

There is no motivation to break a record that was set on an exhibition.
Do you want them to devote thousands of hours in breaking it for nothing ?
Mosconi had thousands of hours logged in paid exhibitions. And frankly speaking, the pros are not even all that impressed by that record.

There is no bonus money to break that record on straight pool tournaments either. They need the tables.

This is why the American players (with the exception of one) are way behind the other players in the world. There just isn't any money in pool in the USA. Why bust your ass for nothing. Don't get me wrong. If the money was there the USA players would be as good as anybody in the world (and have been when the money was there).

 

[KRJ]

A recent proposition regarding Olympic sprinters was discussed on NPR. They compared the speed of Jesse Owens gold metal run compared to the speeds of current gold medalists.....specifically Bolt.

They noted that had you compared Jesse Owens time to those of the most recent Olympics, then he would have finished dead last in the field. But there is a caveat.

In the old days they didn't have the foot brace that current sprinters use to get greater thrust off the mark. In the old days they simply dug out a small divot for leverage. The shoes were probably heavier too.

They noted that had Jesse Owens used the same equipment in getting off the mark as Bolt used, then Jesse Owens would have finished in 2nd place just a fraction behind Bolt.

It seems that human skill has neither improved nor diminished significantly in the last 80 years, but rather the equipment has made all the difference.

Have you seen today's athlests compared to yesterdays ?? The human skill has improved, but to be fair, that is because of better training equipment, better coaching, better technology to analyze every part of your game in whatever sport you play.

Here's a fact. There are more folks today in the Majors throwing 95mph or more, than in anytime in history of baseball....... more power pitchers... because of a lot more training...

 

[BeiberLvr]

This is why the American players (with the exception of one) are way behind the other players in the world. There just isn't any money in pool in the USA. Why bust your ass for nothing. Don't get me wrong. If the money was there the USA players would be as good as anybody in the world (and have been when the money was there).

And that's the problem with pool in America.

The attitude of why bother trying to be great at something if it's not going to make me rich. Where as players in other countries will strive for greatness just to see if they can do it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

how about a "2nd Sting Team" of Hubbart, Rempe and Dallas West?

In the last Mosconi Cup in London Johnny Archer played better than anyone in the tournament and would have beat any of them gambling too.

Don't kid yourselves Johnny Archer would have beaten any of the older (or younger) players in the world at any given time. Sigel and Hopkins would have given Mosconi and Greenleaf fits and probably drove Greenleaf to drinking and Mosconi to fits of outrage. Mizerak and Varner would have done the same thing.....they were incredible players with outstanding mental and technical straight-pool (14.1) games.

Then there's Buddy Hall, Billy Johnson, and Efren.....not to mention Strickland!!! And how about a "2nd Sting Team" of Hubbart, Rempe and Dallas West?

None of the old time players would have wanted to play these "hard core" champions on a daily basis, and would have swam "a river of cough syrup" to avoid the situation. Lassiter may have been the exception, when he got "chipped up" he was a monster......and that type game is certainly the teacher (for awhile anyway)

JA was winning a lot in the 90's.
Would he better today against SVB. Orcollo and Ko ?

 

[rrick33]

Have you seen today's athlests compared to yesterdays ?? The human skill has improved, but to be fair, that is because of better training equipment, better coaching, better technology to analyze every part of your game in whatever sport you play.

Here's a fact. There are folks in the Majors throwing 95mph or more, than in anytime in history of baseball....... more power pitchers... because of a lot more training...

I suppose that where physical sports are concerned, some of it may be more related to nutrition as well as improved training strategies.

Let's not forget the performance enhancing drugs.........

 

[wincardona]

base ball..and hot dogs

To tell you the truth I know very little about base ball and hot dogs, however, I do know a little about eating them. However, what i'm really good at is "missing balls" which makes me an expert on .. recognizing players that miss less than other players.

We have VanBoening..Orcollo..and Ko, the older one, Bustamante, and also Pagulian. It's fair to say that these five players are the best in the world today. Granted there are other players that are close to these fellas, or possibly some that are in their league, so to speak. Appleton, Hohmann, Immonen, Corteza, and Biado.. Like I mentioned in an earlier thread that there are more good players today than years ago, but not necessarily better players.

Lets take a look at the best players 20 years ago. Sigel, Reyes, Hall, Strickland, and Varner. We all know the rep Reyes has among the Filopino players, they think of him as their best player. Yet, if i'm not mistaken, all of our American players hold the edge against Reyes in tournament play. That tells me that 20 years ago the play was as good as the play today, at least by the true upper echelon players. Taking a fair look at it when we are talking about "mopping the floor" I guess your talking about a base ball game after it's over and the janitors are "mopping the floor" to get all the hot dog and mustard stains up.

Bill Incardona

 

[Celtic]

If Mosconi didn't beat John Schmidt's 400+ run, then I'd say John Schmidt is the better player on a 9-foot table with 4-1/2" pockets.

Mosconi did not sit in his basement in front of a video camera playing by themselves trying to get a high run.

Mosconi had a huge number of 150 and outs in competition, and those to this day are tremendously impressive feats.

Also people like to say the pockets were huge, I have seen video from the early era that shows both. Some video shows loose pockets but some I have seen shows very tight pockets. I highly doubt anyone here actually knows what the official size was for the pockets on the 10-foots used in the World Straight pool championships in the 40's when Mosconi hit his top gear.

Plus another thing, the cloth of today is faster then that used in the early days, the rails are more reactive, and this all helps in run building. If anyone here actually watched the IPT Straight Pool match between Schmidt and Sigel played on the slow IPT cloth they would have seen just what slowing the cloth does to the game.

All in all, there are always going to be a ton of opinions on these threads by tons of people and no one really "knows" the truth. We are all just full of theories.

One opinion of mine, Mosconi was a genius when it came to pool, he showed "massive" talent at an extremely early age. If Mosconi were born again today and took up pool as his primary focus, playing on todays equipment and learning with todays resources that are available, he would dominate the pool world all over again. He was one of an extremely rare few people who showed an absolutely off the chart natural talent towards pool. Most pros of either Mosconi's era or todays have the savant-like natural talent that Mosconi had. In the last 40 years THE most naturally gifted almost savant-like player is Earl. If you could get rid of all the "mental" aspects of the game and just go on pure raw maximum speed shooting ability no one "since" Mosconi could match Earl when he hit that top gear he had, no one could "match" it. In a long enough race if Earl played that gear and did not flake out no one could keep up over the long run.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

To tell you the truth I know very little about base ball and hot dogs, however, I do know a little about eating them. However, what i'm really good at is "missing balls" which makes me an expert on .. recognizing players that miss less than other players.

We have VanBoening..Orcollo..and Ko, the older one, Bustamante, and also Pagulian. It's fair to say that these five players are the best in the world today. Granted there are other players that are close to these fellas, or possibly some that are in their league, so to speak. Appleton, Hohmann, Immonen, Corteza, and Biado.. Like I mentioned in an earlier thread that there are more good players today than years ago, but not necessarily better players.

Lets take a look at the best players 20 years ago. Sigel, Reyes, Hall, Strickland, and Varner. We all know the rep Reyes has among the Filopino players, they think of him as their best player. Yet, if i'm not mistaken, all of our American players hold the edge against Reyes in tournament play. That tells me that 20 years ago the play was as good as the play today, at least by the true upper echelon players. Taking a fair look at it when we are talking about "mopping the floor" I guess your talking about a base ball game after it's over and the janitors are "mopping the floor" to get all the hot dog and mustard stains up.

Bill Incardona

Did you put ketchup or mustard on the baseball? lmao

Insightful and humorous post Mr Incardona, as usual. Thanks for sharing. (and not just cause I agree with you )

 

[trinacria]

its a bad example, straight pool then was popular, those guys were better, one pocket was a more popular during allen's time, he was better. 9 ball was popular during efren/earl era, they were better. 10 ball is popular now SVB is better. I know its a simplification of a hard to agree subject, but just like quarterbacks in the nfl are becoming mobile instead of pocket passers, guys like kapernick and wilson will be better at moving around than say peyton or brady. in 10 15 years time it will be hard to compare the styles, how can you argue agaisnt mobility when last years champ was wilson. its hard to compare styles and era's. Ruth was the original slugger, but was he better than say Pujols, don't know. like I said, coparing era's is very difficult, bc it will all be speculation. as for the old guys who say the past players were better, I can argue that when you are younger and than you get older things in the past seem better, just like movies, star wars was the state of the art cgi than, now it looks terrible, but the guys who saw that film at the theater still think it was hte best movie ever, get what im saying??

 

[Mr. Bond]

....Mosconi had a huge number of 150 and outs in competition, and those to this day are tremendously impressive feats.

Yes he did..

Also people like to say the pockets were huge, I have seen video from the early era that shows both. Some video shows loose pockets but some I have seen shows very tight pockets. I highly doubt anyone here actually knows what the official size was for the pockets on the 10-foots used in the World Straight pool championships in the 40's when Mosconi hit his top gear.

Plus another thing, the cloth of today is faster then that used in the early days, the rails are more reactive, and this all helps in run building....

All in all, there are always going to be a ton of opinions on these threads by tons of people and no one really "knows" the truth. We are all just full of theories.

See Post # 77 in this thread. And the excerpt(s) below.

One opinion of mine, Mosconi was a genius when it came to pool, he showed "massive" talent at an extremely early age. If Mosconi were born again today and took up pool as his primary focus, playing on todays equipment and learning with todays resources that are available, he would dominate the pool world all over again. He was one of an extremely rare few people who showed an absolutely off the chart natural talent towards pool. ...

Agreed

 

[Mr. Bond]

The devil's in the details...

125 and out in 30 minutes or less....thats pretty quick.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Side Note:

Notice in the last paragraph of the article, Mosconi mentions going down to (Jackie) Gleason's golf tourney in Florida.

Well...there was another side to Jackie that few people know about. Gleason was an extremely serious armchair UFO researcher, and prided himself on his huge collection of UFO-related books, which numbered into the thousands.

It was a chance conversation one afternoon, back in 1974 in Florida, while Jackie was playing golf with one of his regular partners, President Richard Nixon. Jackie had mentioned his interest in UFOs and his large collection of books, and the president admitted that he also shared Jackie's interest and had a sizeable collection of UFO-oriented materials of his own. At the time, the president said little about what he actually knew, but things were to change drastically later on that same night.

One can only imagine Gleason's surprise when President Nixon showed up at his house around midnight, completely alone and driving his own private car. When Jackie asked him why he was there, Nixon told him that he wanted to take him somewhere and show him something. He got into the president's car, and they ended up at the gates of Homestead Air Force Base. They passed through security and drove to the far end of the base, to a tightly-guarded building. At this point, I will quote directly from Gleason himself, from an interview he gave to UFO researcher and author Larry Warren:

"We drove to the very far end of the base in a segregated area, finally stopping near a well-guarded building. The security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure. There were a number of labs we passed through first before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer, enclosed in several large cases. Next, we went into an inner chamber and there were six or eight of what looked like glass-topped Coke freezers. Inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children. Then - upon closer examination - I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old. Most of them were terribly mangled as if they had been in an accident."

Gleason was understandably excited by all of this, but also quite traumatized, and said he couldn't eat or sleep properly for weeks afterwards, and found himself drinking heavily until he was able to regain his composure.

 

[KRJ]

Excellent article Bond, Mr. Bond....

 

[WildWing]

Boy, I've been avoiding this one for awhile. But looking back many years watching Lassiter play Taylor in an exhibition in 1967, the answer to the original question is:

Young man, you haven't seen the champions of yesteryear. Believe your eyes would open up. Enough said.

 

[jay helfert]

Boy, I've been avoiding this one for awhile. But looking back many years watching Lassiter play Taylor in an exhibition in 1967, the answer to the original question is:

Young man, you haven't seen the champions of yesteryear. Believe your eyes would open up. Enough said.

NO ONE today banks like Eddie Taylor! In his prime he would rob the DCC Bank Pool division, five and out rack after rack! If he only got three or four he would be disappointed I'm sure. Just ask Truman Hogue at DCC how good was Taylor, and whether he thought Eddie could win at DCC. He would look at you and laugh!

 

[alstl]

NO ONE today banks like Eddie Taylor! In his prime he would rob the DCC Bank Pool division, five and out rack after rack! If he only got three or four he would be disappointed I'm sure. Just ask Truman Hogue at DCC how good was Taylor, and whether he thought Eddie could win at DCC. He would look and you and laugh!

You probably remember, I have forgotten. What was Lassiter's most consecutive 9 ball racks run?

 

[dom_poppa]

The fact of the matter is that people like to brag about old timers and their high runs but that isn't a test of greatness. It is endurance.

The pro's today don't care about that.

 

[Mr. Bond]

The fact of the matter is that people like to brag about old timers and their high runs but that isn't a test of greatness. It is endurance.

The pro's today don't care about that.

High runs equate to, and require, reliable accuracy again and again.
Today's pros, and all pros, dream of, train for, and aspire to this, no matter what game they play. What else is there?