C.J. Wiley VS Keith McCready - What's The Line?

[West Point 1987]

Love reading this. Thank you for sharing, Brandon.

Keith most definitely had the Stu Ungar-type personality during this era, and everybody who was around him was well aware of his capabilities, even when, well, feeling no pain, shall I say.

While most players were trying to get those tin cups at the tournaments, Keith couldn't wait for the tournament day to end, so he could get in action. He'd stay up all night long gambling and then have to show up for his match the next day with little to no sleep. Sometimes it would be a forfeit because the action match was still in progress when it was time for Keith's tournament match.

It's kind of comical reading some of the remarks written by people who really don't have the expertise or knowledge base in the pool world to make such comments. I used to come to the defense of the two-foul/push-out game compared to today's luck game of 9-ball, but it doesn't matter what I think or what anybody else thinks.

If you go back in time and ask those who were around, who saw some of the names mentioned in this thread play pool, you'd find out who the hustler -- I'm not even going to use the word "hustler" -- who the best money player was. Some of the names mentioned in this thread were lock artists and wouldn't play anyone for money unless they thought they had the edge. Keith, on the other hand, would play anybody, didn't matter who they were. :grin:

The trait of a true action man is one who can get action wherever he is and get a game with somebody who never thought they'd even be gambling. Then, if the action man is fortunate enough to win, he makes damn sure that the person he is beating is having a good time while he's losing his cheese. That's a hustler. It doesn't have anything to do with laying down the lemon or finding a game that you know you can win with no problem. A hustler gets played, no matter where he goes. A lock artist gets played only when he thinks he's got the dead nuts to win. Therein lies the difference.

I'm sure those in Texas, who know CJ and have seen him up front and close, are loyal fans and believe Keith has no chance at defeating him. As well, there are those who hail from California and have never seen anybody play at the caliber of Keith's game when he's gambling, running six- and seven-packs on all equipment, whether it's a barbox with a big cueball or a ring game on Big Bertha or a 10-foot snooker table.

Personaslly, neither player has anything to prove. They each have a niche in the Americna pool archives that they have carved out for themselves. This ain't a horse race to see which thoroughbred can make it to the finish line first. Who would benefit from it? CJ? Keith?

There's a chance to see Keith give it his all on a reality series if enough interest is generated in the pool world. Team Scooter are the stars of the show, of course, but Keith was willing to get back in stroke and make a cameo appearance. Sadly, the funding reveals how much interest pool can generate, even with us pool aficionados on this forum.

Money talks and B.S. walks, as they say. I feel bad for Keith. He's wanting to get back out there in the thick of it. Me, I'm thank God every single day that I never quit my day job for pool. I'd rather Keith and I live a comfortable life than be worried about bills and keeping a roof over our heads. There is no money in pool today, and the interest that pool generates just ain't there anymore. :sorry:

I wish CJ all the best on his future endeavors in pool. He has never written anything untoward about Keith, and I believe the two of them do respect each other. The respect, however, is limited to them. In the words of Rodney Dangerfield, they seem to get no respect elsewhere when reading some of the words written about them. But in the scheme of things, Keith's words have always rung true, "Don't ever forget *who* you are." Threads like this don't bother Keith or CJ, as they know who they are. Instead, threads like this seem to offend their fans and loved ones much more so.

First of all, I have mad respect for both of these players, I was just starting out gambling and playing hard when they were THE monsters out there on the road, so my formative pool years were spent watching Efren, Earl and Johnny win tournaments and CJ and Keith win the road...at least that's the way I remember it. :wink: If they both were to meet up in DCC at the action room and it were streamed, I think there would be earth shattering action in all directions, regardless of the game. Wedge nailed it, this is an opportunity that could even be used for the show.

Please, please at least get Keith out of the house and down to one of the Action Pool Tour events...he doesn't have to play, just stop in and maybe commentate on the stream. It's in his back yard! :grin-square:

 

[Kim Bye]

Any recent videos of Keith playing out there? I have searched youtube and all the videos are old and terrible quaility
McCready has a unorthodox stroke for sure. Does he still have that type of stroke or has he changed to a more traditional stroke?

 

[Timothy Rose]

I will take keith on this but only if he has practiced for a bit. I am thinking Cj was more a flash in the pan kind of player, few good years.

 

[richiebalto]

It Don't really matters who would win now, it wouldn't mean no more then the money that was bet!

CJ and KEITH are 2 of the best pool players that ever played or will play!

 

[CJ Wiley]

.the finals was delayed 2 hours because of a major "parade" - Kim was stuck

I did first attain the world's #1 ranking in 1995, very few players would remember that - I hadn't thought about that chaotic weekend in awhile.

It's memorable for me, I was scheduled to play a Challenge match with Roger Griffis in Phoenix on the same weekend as a major Pro event in San Francisco.

When I calculated my points it was apparent that if I finished in the "top 5" in San Francisco it would put me on top of the world's rankings. One of my major goals was to be the #1 pro player so it was worth some extra effort to give it a try.

I called the tournament director and he said they would help me with my scheduling if I wanted to attend the tournament. I played my early matches, immediately flew to Phoenix to play Roger, then back to San Fransisco.

Long story short, I reached the finals against Kim Davenport so I secured the #1 ranking......the finals was delayed 2 hours because of a major "parade" - Kim was stuck across the street the whole time having to check it out.....he said it was like a train wreck, he didn't want to watch, but simply couldn't resist. :groucho:

When CJ was at his best, perhaps 1993-96, he was the equal of any player, possibly excepting Jose Parica in a cash game. CJ attained the #1 world ranking, if memory serves, in 1995.

 

[lfigueroa]

Sadly, the funding reveals how much interest pool can generate, even with us pool aficionados on this forum.

I don't think this is a fair call, JAM. Maybe the majority of folks just have zero interested in financing Scooter. Perhaps many folks believe this show, should it ever actually be produced and shown, won't do anything for pool, or at least anything positive, and choose not to donate.

Personally, I'd rather see a producer pick up on something more positive about the game, like the story of next year's MC team being put together over the next 12 months, culminating in the 2015 match against the Euros in Las Vegas.

For me, it's not about what interest pool can generate, it's about what this particular story line can generate.

Lou Figueroa

 

[gmoney1]

I don't think this is a fair call, JAM. Maybe the majority of folks just have zero interested in financing Scooter. Perhaps many folks believe this show, should it ever actually be produced and shown, won't do anything for pool, or at least anything positive, and choose not to donate.

Personally, I'd rather see a producer pick up on something more positive about the game, like the story of next year's MC team being put together over the next 12 months, culminating in the 2015 match against the Euros in Las Vegas.

For me, it's not about what interest pool can generate, it's about what this particular story line can generate.

Lou Figueroa

Like the MC idea

 

[bdorman]

JAM,

I'm too old (60) blind, and out of stroke to play very well anymore and I only play once a week for a couple hours, but I still can make a few balls when I get lucky...I had a 6-pack not too long ago.

Aloha.

Boy, if that doesn't sound like a set-up, I don't know what does

You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses, would you? -- Mike Tyson

 

[CJ Wiley]

there's no strategy, it's just breaking, racking, ducking and kicking.

They 2 Foul rules will be modified for TV, but that's an easy fix.

Keith and I always played this way and it's the only way gamblers played....until one foul came around and the gambling stopped......"one foul rules" are terrible for gambling, there's no strategy, it's just breaking, racking, ducking and kicking.

This version of nine ball, which is the version I played when I was young, is close to unwatchable and is rightly dead. If we're going to bring back the dead, how about Keith vs. Abraham Lincoln?

 

[Island Drive]

Ten Ball

Also, the winner of their match would then challenge someone in the states over sixty five and give em the wild 8.

 

[Timothy Rose]

They 2 Foul rules will be modified for TV, but that's an easy fix.

Keith and I always played this way and it's the only way gamblers played....until one foul came around and the gambling stopped......"one foul rules" are terrible for gambling, there's no strategy, it's just breaking, racking, ducking and kicking.

have you ever matched up with keith? forget about the rule stuff that I keep reading about on here cj

 

[Hungarian]

And jumping

it's just breaking, racking, ducking and kicking.

 

[bdorman]

If this happens, I predict it will be my first PPV. It will be a match worth watching (if for no other reason than I want to learn two-foul nine ball), but it would be great to see these two champions in combat...especially if woofing, trash-talking and crowd-pleasing is allowed!

Of course, a free stream would be mucho appreciated, but if not, I'll buy it!

 

[one stroke]

Iv heard this ridiculous notion from CJ and John that giving something away for free has no significant value in end results , trust me they all claim the color of money was the savior of pool in that era if it never hit free tv those results would have been far different

1

 

[JAM]

I don't think this is a fair call, JAM. Maybe the majority of folks just have zero interested in financing Scooter. Perhaps many folks believe this show, should it ever actually be produced and shown, won't do anything for pool, or at least anything positive, and choose not to donate.

Personally, I'd rather see a producer pick up on something more positive about the game, like the story of next year's MC team being put together over the next 12 months, culminating in the 2015 match against the Euros in Las Vegas.

For me, it's not about what interest pool can generate, it's about what this particular story line can generate.

Lou Figueroa

I can understand your thoughts on this topic, but what's unfair to me is a thread with names of who's the best hustler and the majority of names being praised as hustlers or action players were nothing more than lock artists. That is not a hustler. That's someone who is looking to steal.

I'm not going to call out the names of those who are being praised as being the best, but those in the know are well aware of who they are.

As far as not caring for this production, well, AzBilliards, Greg Sullivan, Diamond Billiards, Hustlin' USA Clothing Co., and PoolDawg think enough of it to sponsor it. To me, that speaks volumes.

To each their own, Lou. I would rather watch action than emotionless Euro tournament-soldier robots dressed up in tuxedos playing mum pool. Even before Keith got the nod to be included in an episode of American Road Player, I liked this project and donated.

 

[JAM]

Also, the winner of their match would then challenge someone in the states over sixty five and give em the wild 8.

Keith is not even 60 years old yet, FWIW.

As well, Efren Reyes, who is the same age as me, 60 years old, just won a tournament in Philippines.

With some lifelong pool players, who who have hit tens of thousands of balls on a daily basis, they don't lose their talent. Earl, Jose Parica, Efren, et al., are perfect examples of this.

This discussion main forum does not do much for the promotion of pool. Rather, it's everybody take a potshot at another member if their opinions differ from what they beleive. Then there is a back-and-forth that ensues.

I am caring less and less about pool in my life today. For Keith's sake, I'm willing to get back out there, as I know how much it means to him. Me, not so much. I have a Home Sweet Home and a Mickey dog that brings me joy. Pool doesn't bring me joy, like it does Keith. It's nothing more than a huge disappointment, especially when I read this forum.

Time to go back to my industry forums and debate commas and semicolons. At least I come away with knowledge and not sore feelings. For some, pool is only a recreational game. For me and mine, it's personal.

Wishing all of AzBilliards a very Merry Christmas. May you count your blessings and realize everything good in your life. :smile:

 

[BeiberLvr]

The reason that Efren can still win big tournaments is that he still plays them and gets into action on a fairly regular basis.

 

[JAM]

The reason that Efren can still win big tournaments is that he still plays them and gets into action on a fairly regular basis.

True dat. Best thing happening for Efren is that he never step foot in this forum.

Everybody has an opinion and takes potshots at others they know nothing about, i.e., Keith's side-arm swing, Keith's poor-quality videos on YouTube from the '80s, Keith's age, Keith's Stu Ungar-type reputation from the '80s, Keith not being on the tournament trail in recent times, et cetera, et cetera. All of these are true and what makes Keith a unique and special person in today's pool world.

One thing for sure, though, is that if -- and this is a big "if" -- and when Keith does step foot in the arena, you can be damn sure that he will be surrounded by by the majority of spectators in the room. They had to stop filming Efren v. Bustie at the Open one year when Keith was playing Alex. Johnny Archer was playing Howard Vickery on the next table, and they just quit playing until Keith's match was over, as did the majority of the tables that night. The entire room had their eyes on Keith's table, and it wasn't just for the entertainment value. Keith's offensive game is stronger than most players will even attempt. He's a fast and rhythmic player. He goes for shots that most cannot even imagine tackling -- and makes them, to boot.

People can think what they want. For sure, they are certainly entitled to. Anyone who thinks Keith doesn't have game today, good luck with that. You just don't know who Keith McCready is, and maybe you never will. That would suit me just fine. They can read all about it and never have the pleasure of knowing the man.

 

[BeiberLvr]

True dat. Best thing happening for Efren is that he never step foot in this forum.

Everybody has an opinion and takes potshots at others they know nothing about, i.e., Keith's side-arm swing, Keith's poor-quality videos on YouTube from the '80s, Keith's age, Keith's Stu Ungar-type reputation from the '80s, Keith not being on the tournament trail in recent times, et cetera, et cetera. All of these are true and what makes Keith a unique and special person in today's pool world.

One thing for sure, though, is that if -- and this is a big "if" -- and when Keith does step foot in the arena, you can be damn sure that he will be surrounded by by the majority of spectators in the room. They had to stop filming Efren v. Bustie at the Open one year when Keith was playing Alex. Johnny Archer was playing Howard Vickery on the next table, and they just quit playing until Keith's match was over, as did the majority of the tables that night. The entire room had their eyes on Keith's table, and it wasn't just for the entertainment value. Keith's offensive game is stronger than most players will even attempt. He's a fast and rhythmic player. He goes for shots that most cannot even imagine tackling -- and makes them, to boot.

People can think what they want. For sure, they are certainly entitled to. Anyone who thinks Keith doesn't have game today, good luck with that. You just don't know who Keith McCready is, and maybe you never will. That would suit me just fine. They can read all about it and never have the pleasure of knowing the man.

It's not that I think Keith doesn't have game today, but I do think he's not the same as he was when he was in top form.

That's not a knock. That's just me being a realist. All the natural talent in the world doesn't matter when you step away from the game and playing against top competition like he has.

I look forward to watching him play again, but he's bound to be the underdog depending on who he plays. I suspect that Keith has no problem with that.

 

[JAM]

It's not that I think Keith doesn't have game today, but I do think he's not the same as he was when he was in top form.

That's not a knock. That's just me being a realist. All the natural talent in the world doesn't matter when you step away from the game and playing against top competition like he has.

I look forward to watching him play again, but he's bound to be the underdog depending on who he plays. I suspect that Keith has no problem with that.

I got news for you. He wasn't in top form when I met him. How do you like them apples?! And he still won.

You can believe he's an underdog, but coming from an anonymous member with the forum handle of "Bieber lover" -- spelled wrong, I might add -- who posts on a pool forum, I take your opinion with a grain of salt. Nuff said.