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I don't subscribe to "TOI", but if I'm taking a shot that's got a stronger chance of rattling, I'd rather be able to put a little pocketing spin on the OB.
Taiwan TOI
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
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I don't subscribe to "TOI", but if I'm taking a shot that's got a stronger chance of rattling, I'd rather be able to put a little pocketing spin on the OB.
You read my mind. Just setting up meeting for late in February. Looking forward to possibly seeing you again.
Nick
Nick
Hey Dave,
Just some thoughts on what you're doing with center ball. I do it, too. I haven't abandoned center ball! :grin: I still cheat pockets with center ball, but I do it differently than with TOI.
Speed changes the throw element using both TOI and center ball. That's one obvious way to change a cut angle. With center ball and TOI, you can also do it by changing your aiming line to the object ball, we all agree on that. The third way, which isn't done typically with center ball, is to move the tip off of center for cue ball deflection, left and right. Spin is usually the goal when the tip is offset using center ball. And yes, all tip offsets create spin. Some, not as much as others.
The speed has to be factored in no matter which method is used, TOI or center ball. Another method is throwing the object ball with spin. Several calculations and estimations come into play, even with BHE, etc. being used. If I can get the shape using TOI, I avoid doing this. Thinking gets tough under pressure or in long sessions and I'm a pool player, after all!
There are two ways to use TOI, IMO. You can set up 100% TOI and pivot to center ball and outside spin. The other method is to only set up with TOI as you feel you need it on certain shots.
I will set up exclusively with TOI when I play on most bar tables and all tables with older cloth. With new or newer cloth, I set up using TOI sparingly, as needed. I go to a normal center ball game.
One last thing, when spinning balls in with outside or holding them with inside, I have to rely on a feel component. If I can avoid this estimation, I do and rely on my tip placement on the cue ball...TOI. It is a much simpler thing to do and accomplished easily with practice. You can put your tip exactly where you need it, versus estimating the amount of spin to use at a calculated stroke speed.
I still have a center ball game if I need it. JMO!
Best,
Mike
I don't fully understand your question, but speed creates more "effective squirt" (by lessening swerve when the distance isn't too short) and also reduces throw.
pj
chgo
I think both of these rely on estimation. My interpretation is that you've simply found the kind of estimations that you're most comfortable with. Your estimations won't feel like no estimations to everybody.
pj
chgo
The estimation is easier, I feel, when cueball movement is less and in mostly one direction. This is what makes toi easier to predict than a full on spin shot. I hope I explained that clearly.
It's not my intention to play using only TOI on every shot. However, the concept is valid and it works.
Sorry, I missed it. How is CB movement "less and in mostly one direction" with TOI? Why do you compare it with a "full on spin shot"?
pj
chgo
I'm just using the lesser amount of estimation and a smaller mechanical component to accomplish cinching some shots.
I still feel comfortable using both methods, which may not be true for all players. With that as a baseline for my decision, less moving parts has proven to be more effective for me.
Each player has to figure out what their comfort zone is and like you say, learn which estimation suits their game.
Best,
Mike
I took a flashlight in and waited with everyone for about 20 minutes,
That's right, can you imagine trying to see a contact point difference between straight-in and one that would change where it hits the pocket by a quarter of an inch? Especially on longer shots this would be a lot to ask of one's self.
Last night I went to a big Friday night tournament at Volcano's (usually a full field of 32 + $100 10 Ball break contest), when I arrived the entire shopping center was pitch black - something had happened to a transformer in the area would be my guess.
I took a flashlight in and waited with everyone for about 20 minutes, the lights came on for an instant, then went back off. A girl I knew from HardTimes in LA came up to me and said "hey, there's another tournament at 'Diamond Jims' I called them and they will wait for us before starting".
I waited a few more minutes, then, sensing some adventure, jumped in my car and headed towards DJ's (it's about a 25 minute drive).
To make a long story short, a guy was drawn for the "break and run" contest and elected me to shoot for him. I broke the rack of 10 Ball, made the 8, and was left with a one/three combinatioin. I made that shot, then had a power draw to the opposite end of the table, which went beautifully.
I ran the remaining balls, and was straight-in in on the 9-Ball. Remember, if you miss any ball you forfeit all the prize money (which was over $400) - I lined up the straight-in, then shifted a hair to the left and accelerated. The cue ball came back to the right and got perfect on the 10-ball for the win and jackpot.
This situation has come up countless times in my career and I can't remember ever missing the shot, or the attempt to cheat the pocket using TOI. Whether anyone believes it on this forum is not important, the fact that everyone saw it in that bar is what matters, because they will be talking about that shot for a long time.
Distance doesn't really matter using TOI, the cue ball is the target, and all the angles are created at the cue ball.....if there's an easier way I'd be surprised, especially when shooting off the end rail (which has always been my specialty).
That's right, can you imagine trying to see a contact point difference between straight-in and one that would change where it hits the pocket by a quarter of an inch? Especially on longer shots this would be a lot to ask of one's self.
Last night I went to a big Friday night tournament at Volcano's (usually a full field of 32 + $100 10 Ball break contest), when I arrived the entire shopping center was pitch black - something had happened to a transformer in the area would be my guess.
I took a flashlight in and waited with everyone for about 20 minutes, the lights came on for an instant, then went back off. A girl I knew from HardTimes in LA came up to me and said "hey, there's another tournament at 'Diamond Jims' I called them and they will wait for us before starting".
I waited a few more minutes, then, sensing some adventure, jumped in my car and headed towards DJ's (it's about a 25 minute drive).
To make a long story short, a guy was drawn for the "break and run" contest and elected me to shoot for him. I broke the rack of 10 Ball, made the 8, and was left with a one/three combinatioin. I made that shot, then had a power draw to the opposite end of the table, which went beautifully.
I ran the remaining balls, and was straight-in in on the 9-Ball. Remember, if you miss any ball you forfeit all the prize money (which was over $400) - I lined up the straight-in, then shifted a hair to the left and accelerated. The cue ball came back to the right and got perfect on the 10-ball for the win and jackpot.
This situation has come up countless times in my career and I can't remember ever missing the shot, or the attempt to cheat the pocket using TOI. Whether anyone believes it on this forum is not important, the fact that everyone saw it in that bar is what matters, because they will be talking about that shot for a long time.
Distance doesn't really matter using TOI, the cue ball is the target, and all the angles are created at the cue ball.....if there's an easier way I'd be surprised, especially when shooting off the end rail (which has always been my specialty).
Good Post Mike.:thumbup2:
We're playing similar in style.
It just recently hit me that I've played using english for 46 years & never once had any consideration to go back to trying to play with center ball as a base method, but CJ introduces TOI & within a very short time I'm using it more than I ever did use center ball & it has replaced my predominant method.
That just struck me as a bit odd.
Best to Ya,
Rick
Great answer Mike, thanks so much. That all makes perfect sense, as usual. I prefer to shoot without calculations too, but sometimes I also need to.
Its that I don't remember hearing anything about throw on the video. I think CJ said something about cheating the pocket using speed, not spin. So I'm wondering if he is saying deflection is effected by speed. I cant see what else he could mean.
Thanks, I could see that being the reasoning.
I've been working on creating angles out of nothing. With the proper stroke and tip position, the cue ball does a lot more things than it could in the past, for me.
Congrats on the jackpot run!
Best,
Mike
It's a tool in the tool box. Simple, yet effective. And I keep coming up with new ways to use it.
Best,
Mike
I rarely use more TOI, just a "touch" is usually sufficient
That's right, TOI is effected by the shot speed.
There are three basic calculations we have to make on each shot.
The shot speed, the cue ball target and creating the correct angle.
Many players separate these three and play different speeds, mixed with different cue ball targets (where you contact the cue ball with the TIP), and different contact points.
When a player decides to go through the TOI training they will be required to blend these three together, using a consistent shot speed, with a standard tip target (TOI), and the angle created off either the center or edge of the object ball.
I rarely use more TOI, just a "touch" is usually sufficient (if anyone can tell I'm favoring the inside I'm probably using too much), so If I hit the inside of the pocket (where I'm aligned to) the very next shot I'll increase my shot, which cuts the object ball slightly more.
When I see a player undercut a shot, I watch to see if they do it again. Even if they make the shots I know they are not calibrating towards the center of the pocket. It's probable that the closer they get to winning the game, (or the match) the more likely they will undercut the shot even more and miss. This shakes their confidence because they won't know why this happened.......and I'm certainly not going to tell them.
To perform well over a period of hours there must be a way to continually calibrate where you're hitting the pocket. This is not possible using center ball, if you increase your shot speed it will exaggerate any deviation in your stoke, not help force the object ball in a predictable way like TOI does.
I was talking to a top notch golfer last night at 'Diamond Jims' that has made his living gambling (he lived in Vegas for years). I ask him, "when you're betting high, do you move the golf ball in both directions (draw and fade)?"
He said "hell, no, I'll hit a fade, even if there's water on the left because I know my natural swing will move the ball left to right". He went on to say "Lee Trevino is the first one to tell me this, it made sense so I've done it ever since" (Lee was known to be an almost unbeatable golfer at Tennison Park Golf Course in Dallas).
TOI is the same principle, it's reliable under pressure because you always know which way the cue ball will move off line if the shot isn't hit perfectly. Also, once your shot speed is calibrated, you can increase this under pressure and it will be even more accurate. De-acceleration is the reason most players "dog it," not over-acceleration.
Remember this, it seems simple, however, it's vital to overcome pressure situations. TOI or TOO practitioners have a built in way to continually calibrate their shots, is they understand how the pocket zone is created and approached.
TOO players create zones with deflection and spin, TOI players do it with deflection.
I can achieve this either way, it's just personal preference to use TOI so I can hit the cue ball slightly firmer. This works well on regular table conditions, under tournament conditions I have to adjust accordingly (using less TOI or more/less cue/shot speed).
That's right, TOI is effected by the shot speed.
There are three basic calculations we have to make on each shot.
The shot speed, the cue ball target and creating the correct angle.
Many players separate these three and play different speeds, mixed with different cue ball targets (where you contact the cue ball with the TIP), and different contact points.
When a player decides to go through the TOI training they will be required to blend these three together, using a consistent shot speed, with a standard tip target (TOI), and the angle created off either the center or edge of the object ball.
I rarely use more TOI, just a "touch" is usually sufficient (if anyone can tell I'm favoring the inside I'm probably using too much), so If I hit the inside of the pocket (where I'm aligned to) the very next shot I'll increase my shot, which cuts the object ball slightly more.
When I see a player undercut a shot, I watch to see if they do it again. Even if they make the shots I know they are not calibrating towards the center of the pocket. It's probable that the closer they get to winning the game, (or the match) the more likely they will undercut the shot even more and miss. This shakes their confidence because they won't know why this happened.......and I'm certainly not going to tell them.
To perform well over a period of hours there must be a way to continually calibrate where you're hitting the pocket. This is not possible using center ball, if you increase your shot speed it will exaggerate any deviation in your stoke, not help force the object ball in a predictable way like TOI does.
I was talking to a top notch golfer last night at 'Diamond Jims' that has made his living gambling (he lived in Vegas for years). I ask him, "when you're betting high, do you move the golf ball in both directions (draw and fade)?"
He said "hell, no, I'll hit a fade, even if there's water on the left because I know my natural swing will move the ball left to right". He went on to say "Lee Trevino is the first one to tell me this, it made sense so I've done it ever since" (Lee was known to be an almost unbeatable golfer at Tennison Park Golf Course in Dallas).
TOI is the same principle, it's reliable under pressure because you always know which way the cue ball will move off line if the shot isn't hit perfectly. Also, once your shot speed is calibrated, you can increase this under pressure and it will be even more accurate. De-acceleration is the reason most players "dog it," not over-acceleration.
Remember this, it seems simple, however, it's vital to overcome pressure situations. TOI or TOO practitioners have a built in way to continually calibrate their shots, is they understand how the pocket zone is created and approached.
TOO players create zones with deflection and spin, TOI players do it with deflection.
I can achieve this either way, it's just personal preference to use TOI so I can hit the cue ball slightly firmer. This works well on regular table conditions, under tournament conditions I have to adjust accordingly (using less TOI or more/less cue/shot speed).
That's right, TOI is effected by the shot speed.
There are three basic calculations we have to make on each shot.
The shot speed, the cue ball target and creating the correct angle.
Many players separate these three and play different speeds, mixed with different cue ball targets (where you contact the cue ball with the TIP), and different contact points.
When a player decides to go through the TOI training they will be required to blend these three together, using a consistent shot speed, with a standard tip target (TOI), and the angle created off either the center or edge of the object ball.
I rarely use more TOI, just a "touch" is usually sufficient (if anyone can tell I'm favoring the inside I'm probably using too much), so If I hit the inside of the pocket (where I'm aligned to) the very next shot I'll increase my shot, which cuts the object ball slightly more.
When I see a player undercut a shot, I watch to see if they do it again. Even if they make the shots I know they are not calibrating towards the center of the pocket. It's probable that the closer they get to winning the game, (or the match) the more likely they will undercut the shot even more and miss. This shakes their confidence because they won't know why this happened.......and I'm certainly not going to tell them.
To perform well over a period of hours there must be a way to continually calibrate where you're hitting the pocket. This is not possible using center ball, if you increase your shot speed it will exaggerate any deviation in your stoke, not help force the object ball in a predictable way like TOI does.
I was talking to a top notch golfer last night at 'Diamond Jims' that has made his living gambling (he lived in Vegas for years). I ask him, "when you're betting high, do you move the golf ball in both directions (draw and fade)?"
He said "hell, no, I'll hit a fade, even if there's water on the left because I know my natural swing will move the ball left to right". He went on to say "Lee Trevino is the first one to tell me this, it made sense so I've done it ever since" (Lee was known to be an almost unbeatable golfer at Tennison Park Golf Course in Dallas).
TOI is the same principle, it's reliable under pressure because you always know which way the cue ball will move off line if the shot isn't hit perfectly. Also, once your shot speed is calibrated, you can increase this under pressure and it will be even more accurate. De-acceleration is the reason most players "dog it," not over-acceleration.
Remember this, it seems simple, however, it's vital to overcome pressure situations. TOI or TOO practitioners have a built in way to continually calibrate their shots, is they understand how the pocket zone is created and approached.
TOO players create zones with deflection and spin, TOI players do it with deflection.
I can achieve this either way, it's just personal preference to use TOI so I can hit the cue ball slightly firmer. This works well on regular table conditions, under tournament conditions I have to adjust accordingly (using less TOI or more/less cue/shot speed).
Thanks CJ. When you say "so If I hit the inside of the pocket (where I'm aligned to) the very next shot I'll increase my shot, which cuts the object ball slightly more.
When you say "increase my shot" do you mean increase shot speed or tip location?
I'm not answering for CJ...here's my take on adjusting (CJ, set me straight :grin-square
.
If I'm hitting the ball firm already and swerve is a minimum like on old cloth or dirty equipment, I won't change my speed. It really won't help much. I'll move a fraction of a tip away from center cue ball and get a tiny bit more deflection and some over cut on the object ball.
On better cloth and conditions, I'll eliminate the swerve with an increase slightly in speed. This also decreases cling/throw slightly, causing a thinner cut.
This, like CJ says, is why players lose long sets after jumping out to an early lead. They don't recalibrate for changing table conditions, more or less humidity, and the equipment getting dirty from chalk and hand oils. Miss a few key shots and you're going home with no cheese!
Best,
Mike
.If I'm hitting the ball firm already and swerve is a minimum like on old cloth or dirty equipment, I won't change my speed. It really won't help much. I'll move a fraction of a tip away from center cue ball and get a tiny bit more deflection and some over cut on the object ball.
On better cloth and conditions, I'll eliminate the swerve with an increase slightly in speed. This also decreases cling/throw slightly, causing a thinner cut.
This, like CJ says, is why players lose long sets after jumping out to an early lead. They don't recalibrate for changing table conditions, more or less humidity, and the equipment getting dirty from chalk and hand oils. Miss a few key shots and you're going home with no cheese!
Best,
Mike
There was a teacher in Los Angeles that taught "aim by squirt" to his pupils, with a vast preference for inside English. He had a tendancy to convert his pupils into disciples and they would practice for hours and hours. He also taught extreme cuts with outside spin throw instead of just aiming thin.
To say his pupils were dazed and confused after using this system would be an understatement. I don't know of anybody who stuck with it and I know of several who had to deprogram themselves for several months after a year or two of practice. They could never really count on their game being there while using this system.
I had asked CJ about this and he agreed actually - his TOI just uses a small amount off center.
My thinking is that no matter where you mark your spot in practice strokes, an experienced player's final stroke will seek the spot that works for the shot if they let it. Think Bustamante.
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Whatever aiming technique you choose, favor the inside part of the pocket
Yes, that's why I don't aim, I align with TOI, it's not an aiming system, it's an overall playing system. You can "aim" any way you choose, this is a personal choice, you'll find it's much easier than what you've been led to believe.
The main thing is to align to either the center or edge of the object ball, the "aiming" can be done by feel (touch) which is what we're striving for.
I do show a sectional aiming system in my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' however, I use this as a "check and balance" for my instinctive aiming. Personally, I simply use TOI and calibrate the shot to hit the center of the pocket (if this happens you know you are aligned to the inside, the deflection is what makes the ball cut slightly more).
Whatever aiming technique you choose, favor the inside part of the pocket (left side cutting to the right, and right side cutting balls to the left).
Our subconscious minds are capable of driving across town, dodging through traffic, calculating speeds, angles, and road signs without conscious thought.
This is far more difficult than pocketing pool balls, the TOI is used to expand your pocket zone (approach angle) and counter after-contact spin.....using it the majority of the time also allows the player a chance to master that one, particular shot which boosts confidence.
At the end of the day your way of aiming will be directly linked to your confidence. You will be amazed how well you can pocket balls by just using TOI and instinct. If you under-cut a shot, use more cue speed (acceleration) or increase TOI, if you're over-cutting a shot, reduced your TOI first.....then you may have to tone down your shot (cue) speed (I rarely see someone use too much acceleration).
Yes, that's why I don't aim, I align with TOI, it's not an aiming system, it's an overall playing system. You can "aim" any way you choose, this is a personal choice, you'll find it's much easier than what you've been led to believe.
The main thing is to align to either the center or edge of the object ball, the "aiming" can be done by feel (touch) which is what we're striving for.
I do show a sectional aiming system in my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' however, I use this as a "check and balance" for my instinctive aiming. Personally, I simply use TOI and calibrate the shot to hit the center of the pocket (if this happens you know you are aligned to the inside, the deflection is what makes the ball cut slightly more).
Whatever aiming technique you choose, favor the inside part of the pocket (left side cutting to the right, and right side cutting balls to the left).
Our subconscious minds are capable of driving across town, dodging through traffic, calculating speeds, angles, and road signs without conscious thought.
This is far more difficult than pocketing pool balls, the TOI is used to expand your pocket zone (approach angle) and counter after-contact spin.....using it the majority of the time also allows the player a chance to master that one, particular shot which boosts confidence.
At the end of the day your way of aiming will be directly linked to your confidence. You will be amazed how well you can pocket balls by just using TOI and instinct. If you under-cut a shot, use more cue speed (acceleration) or increase TOI, if you're over-cutting a shot, reduced your TOI first.....then you may have to tone down your shot (cue) speed (I rarely see someone use too much acceleration).
I increase the shot speed.