Will you control for variable tip offset?
I think maximum achievable spin both ways would be good to know.
pj
chgo
Question about intentional swerve
- Thread starter bdorman
- Start date
I think maximum achievable spin both ways would be good to know.
pj
chgo
So to get this swerve effect you need to angle your cue tip down slightly?
:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:
CJ it does require some downward force at least when straight left or right is used with no top or bottom...
I would have argued because I don't think I ever play level but I tested it several times and without a downward angle there is no swerve...
I have not tested high and low left and right but I think the spin about the axis will have a grabbing or breaking effect during travel respectively...
Have to figure out how to replicate those spins that without a stroke component....
To answer the original question in this thread with a demonstration:
I shot a set shot with High Outside slow speed, High Outside Medium speed, Center Outside medium speed, Low Outside medium speed, in that order.
For me personally, I get significantly more swerve on the CB the higher the tip is. Every shot in succession in the video I aimed for a thinner hit.
In the video I use the terms ghost ball hit. I meant ghost ball aim. Note, I don't use ghost ball to aim, it was just a way to describe how I was sighting the ball.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gORTBbOZ10I&feature=youtu.be
I shot a set shot with High Outside slow speed, High Outside Medium speed, Center Outside medium speed, Low Outside medium speed, in that order.
For me personally, I get significantly more swerve on the CB the higher the tip is. Every shot in succession in the video I aimed for a thinner hit.
In the video I use the terms ghost ball hit. I meant ghost ball aim. Note, I don't use ghost ball to aim, it was just a way to describe how I was sighting the ball.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gORTBbOZ10I&feature=youtu.be
Colin stated there my be some squirt into the cloth using high sidespin which would explain the extra swerve... I am thinking I need to pry Joe Tucker's fingers off his laser aim invention and put it thru it's paces... Or maybe we can get him to try some things using it on video... PAGING JOE TUCKER!!!! Calling him now........
Hi Dave,
My accursed time zone means I just caught up with this thread.
I do think that test would lead to a clearer understanding if done right. Basically, I do this type of test often during play, but without high precision measurement of the variables.
I think the most surprising thing to me is how little side swooping affects things. I almost always pivot then piston stroke when I apply BHE, but if I swipe to the offset I seem to get the same result, especially on firmer shots.
I suspect swiping across CCB and slow swiping shots do change the direction of the CB relative to a straight shot.
I'd be quite happy to never play a swoop again, because there's not a single shot I can think of where I couldn't find a way to do it without swooping. I just find it interesting. It may be that it is a more intuitive way to aim with english or that it is an effective way to nullify sliding CB throw. Not necessary for sure, but one way to do it.
Also, if swiping does very little, it would seem a billion misses have been blamed on the wrong cause and that straight cueing's main role is in assisting alignment and hitting the CB in the right place, not directing the CB.
I'll try to find some time to do your experiment soon Dave, with different offsets and speeds and so on. See what it teaches me.
Cheers,
Colin
Edit: I forgot to mention, as we've discussed before, some tests I did with a fixed bridge, CB and OB. During that test my firm swipes with inside english were indistinguishable from the piston inside english. Unfortunately I lacked the coordination to video this with one hand in the air holding the camera. It's also possible that the cue slides upward and to the right a little in the bridge V when swiping left. This could effect testing, leading to thicker hits and making us think the swipe is pulling the CB left, when it may just be moving the effective bridge point right.
Edit 2: I apologize for interchanging swoop and swipe throughout this. I'm meaning the same thing. I guess I tend to use my own definition of swoop being up and down v swipe being left and right.
Last edited:
I calibrate my stroke by speed first, then by angle if necessary.
Yes, that's my experience, and why I like a slight downward angle on my cue. With the touch of inside there is no swerve, unless the cue angle is too severe, or there is not adequate acceleration. I calibrate my stroke by speed first, then by angle if necessary.
Yesterday I was teaching someone how to aim their masse' shots. This is a real awakening when if comes to how the swerve counters deflection depending on speed.
Yes, that's my experience, and why I like a slight downward angle on my cue. With the touch of inside there is no swerve, unless the cue angle is too severe, or there is not adequate acceleration. I calibrate my stroke by speed first, then by angle if necessary.
Yesterday I was teaching someone how to aim their masse' shots. This is a real awakening when if comes to how the swerve counters deflection depending on speed.
I have Joe Tuckers laser trainer.... never got the hang of it....
I don't know the mechanism for what I observed. Only that when I play, I have to aim fuller for a high outside hit than when playing the same shot but with a low outside hit.
IMO, its because of the downward component of the tip force when hitting the CB above center. This downward component of the force is in affect the same as a downward stroke. that causes a masse.
Last edited:
Hi Patrick,
What I meant by the shape of the tip is when striking above center, the line of centers between the tip and the CB forms a force component in the downward direction.
Last edited:
Yeah but CJ here is the ramification.. I have been calibrating speed to figure out how hard I have to hit the ball to not worry about anything but squirt and then I can just use more rails and trust my aim... Now that I see that a level stroke does the same thing as added speed I can not worry so much about anything but the squirt... I can use TOI at sloooooooowwwww speeds...... I will still prefer the old way and playing shots firmer but in some instances this is pretty useful... Wouldn't have came on this on my own... level pendulum strokes go broke first but hey you can learn things from them.....
I am not a high level player, but I would "guess" that in order to become a high level player, one must master the entire cue ball. One must know every shot possible. One must not shun away a certain hit on the CB in favor of another because it is more reliable to them, or has less swerve, deflection, throw, you name it.
The table layout dictates the best shot to take. Purposely avoiding mastering certain shots will prevent one from becoming a top player.
<===== This from a banger
The table layout dictates the best shot to take. Purposely avoiding mastering certain shots will prevent one from becoming a top player.
<===== This from a banger
It's a nice tool Joe's got there. May need to raise the height of it to replicate playing high english.
Hi Chris,
I once missed a shot with the OB right in the pocket. The CB was about 2 diamonds from the head rail & about as far off the long rail as the OB on a 9' table with the OB about one ball out from a foot corner pocket & centered. I shot it with TOI aligned CTE & had intended to hit it below the equator. I mostly use a fairly 'level' piston stroke. When I missed it I was naturally shocked. Oh, I missed the whole ball. It took me about a full minute to figure out why I had missed it.
I mis hit it... & did not hit below the equator but 'right on' the equator. The ball had no swerve component & did a full squirt.
I set it up again & aimed it the same & shot it hitting on the equator with the same result. I missed the whole ball. I did it twice & then shot it hitting below center & made it as originally planned.
I just thought you might find that a bit interesting.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
Last edited:
My cue is 58 inches. I can lay my cue on the bed of a 9 ft table and have room left over. There are shots on can happen on to where you can get the entire cue inside the rails of a 9 ft table and the ball positions are such that no uncomfortable stance us used.
When this shooting postions occurs, I can upstoke with no problems unless there is a ball that does not allow the butt of the cue go low enough.
How anyone can can say that the use of a upstroke is impossible is beyond me.
It also points out much the ball position on the table is in control of your stance and stroke.
Oh, for these "experiments",,,,,,,,,you can't use terms like slow, medium and fast to describe anything cause those are totally subjective terms and and "experiments" can not have any subjectively in them.
You must use a range CB speeds that are used in normal everyday play and not speeds just to prove a point.
If the CB speeds used are above what is applicable to real world play, the "experiments" are of little value.
Swooping, swiping does nothing but add a extra level of unneeded complexity to a really simple game.
When this shooting postions occurs, I can upstoke with no problems unless there is a ball that does not allow the butt of the cue go low enough.
How anyone can can say that the use of a upstroke is impossible is beyond me.
It also points out much the ball position on the table is in control of your stance and stroke.
Oh, for these "experiments",,,,,,,,,you can't use terms like slow, medium and fast to describe anything cause those are totally subjective terms and and "experiments" can not have any subjectively in them.
You must use a range CB speeds that are used in normal everyday play and not speeds just to prove a point.
If the CB speeds used are above what is applicable to real world play, the "experiments" are of little value.
Swooping, swiping does nothing but add a extra level of unneeded complexity to a really simple game.
The use of an upstroke is impossible.
Thank you
Thank you
Translation... "deee dee deeeeer....." Somewhere a window is missing it's licker comes to my mind.......
We will strive for near-maximum spin on each shot (at the miscue limit); although, I suspect this will be difficult to do consistently with the swoop technique. Regardless, if we do a large number of shots close to the miscue limit, we should be able to find the maximum possible spin with each technique. We will also look at the chalk contact point (relative to an Elephant Ball circle) after each good shot.
If the swoop action is significant, the CB will be deflected off line, but we will attempt to adjust for this with appropriate aim.
Agreed.
Thank you for your input,
Dave
Colin,
Thank you for your time-zone-delayed response. As usual, I think your assessments are spot on; although, I still look forward to seeing what carefully-done experiments show. Also, even though I will be testing sidespin swoop only, I think the results and conclusions will also apply to other types of swoop like an "up stroke."
Cheers,
Dave
I look forward to the results of your testing Dave!
I'd like to get a parallel tapered shaft, say 12mm and a fixed bridge with say a 12.1mm diameter hole to do some tests too.
Cheers,
Colin