Question about intentional swerve

[Patrick Johnson]

We will strive for near-maximum spin on each shot (at the miscue limit); although, I suspect this will be difficult to do consistently with the swoop technique. Regardless, if we do a large number of shots close to the miscue limit, we should be able to find the maximum possible spin with each technique. We will also look at the chalk contact point (relative to an Elephant Ball circle) after each good shot.

If the swoop action is significant, the CB will be deflected off line, but we will attempt to adjust for this with appropriate aim.

Agreed.

Thank you for your input,
Dave

One way to test for less-than-maximum sidespin would be to shoot the swoop shot first, then check the chalk mark and carefully set up a matching straight-stroke shot to hit the same spot on the CB. That way we can confirm that less-than-maximum-spin shots work the same as maximum-spin shots.

Thanks for doing this - looking forward to your observations,

pj
chgo

 

[iusedtoberich]

Curious if any of the better players on this thread watched my video a few posts back. Do you guys have to aim fuller on a shot angle when cueing high outside as compared to center outside and low outside as I did in the video?

It seems like this thread has morphed into swiping questions. But the original question of what tip position causes the most swerve (for normal shots not masse shots) was not conclusively answered, imo.

 

[dr_dave]

One way to test for less-than-maximum sidespin would be to shoot the swoop shot first, then check the chalk mark and carefully set up a matching straight-stroke shot to hit the same spot on the CB. That way we can confirm that less-than-maximum-spin shots work the same as maximum-spin shots.

Good idea. I'll try to add that.

Thanks for doing this - looking forward to your observations

Me too. I hope others also do some tests and report what they find.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Neil]

My cue is 58 inches. I can lay my cue on the bed of a 9 ft table and have room left over. There are shots on can happen on to where you can get the entire cue inside the rails of a 9 ft table and the ball positions are such that no uncomfortable stance us used.

When this shooting postions occurs, I can upstoke with no problems unless there is a ball that does not allow the butt of the cue go low enough.

How anyone can can say that the use of a upstroke is impossible is beyond me.

It also points out much the ball position on the table is in control of your stance and stroke.

Oh, for these "experiments",,,,,,,,,you can't use terms like slow, medium and fast to describe anything cause those are totally subjective terms and and "experiments" can not have any subjectively in them.

You must use a range CB speeds that are used in normal everyday play and not speeds just to prove a point.

If the CB speeds used are above what is applicable to real world play, the "experiments" are of little value.

Swooping, swiping does nothing but add a extra level of unneeded complexity to a really simple game.

Seems many can't keep up with the conversation. We were talking about the video. Not any possible shot on the table.

 

[dr_dave]

Curious if any of the better players on this thread watched my video a few posts back. Do you guys have to aim fuller on a shot angle when cueing high outside as compared to center outside and low outside as I did in the video?

Most definitely. FYI, here's a pertinent excerpt from my BHE/FHE resource page:

If using the BHE/FHE combination method, a good way to get a feel for how much of each to use for different shots is with the drill suggested in Diagram 3 of the article. Small corrections also need to be made for draw vs. follow shots. With a draw shot, because the CB slides over a longer distance, swerve is delayed and the effective CB deflection is greater. This requires more squirt compensation, so more BHE (and less FHE) will be required for draw shots vs. follow shots, especially on longer shots with medium to fast speeds and shorter shots at slow to medium speeds. Again, the drill in the article is useful to get a feel for this for a given cue and table conditions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Curious if any of the better players on this thread watched my video a few posts back. Do you guys have to aim fuller on a shot angle when cueing high outside as compared to center outside and low outside as I did in the video?

Yes.

This has been mentioned many times on AzB. An above-center hit on the CB causes "downward squirt" that results in faster-acting (more) swerve.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

This has been mentioned many times on AzB. An above-center hit on the CB causes "downward squirt" that results in faster-acting (more) swerve.

Here's another pertinent quote from my CB deflection draw/follow effects resource page:

Hitting higher on the CB can do two important things related to net CB deflection (AKA squerve or the combined effects of squirt and swerve). Hitting higher can result in the cue being more level if the butt is lowered to help raise the tip. This would actually create less swerve, which would tend to exaggerate the effect of squirt (since less of the squirt is being cancelled by swerve). See squirt cue elevation effects for more info. However, with a higher hit on the ball, squirt actually has two components ... one sideways which causes CB deflection (what we normally call "squirt"), and one downward (into the table). The downward component will cause swerve to occur sooner (even before the CB moves forward very much at all). This is sometimes called "immediate swerve." This effect is more noticeable with highly-elevated-cue shots like masse shots and jump shots with off-center hits (intentional or not) that create a lot more swerve (CB curve) than with typical low-elevation pool shots. The immediate swerve associated with follow shots lessens the effect of sideways squirt (since more of the sideways squirt is being cancelled by the sooner swerve).

A draw shot, on the other hand, has less downward force into the table (from cue elevation) due to an upward component of squirt which reduces the "immediate swerve." Also, as illustrated in Diagram 1 of "Squirt - Part VIII: squerve effects" (BD, March, 2008), swerve takes longer to complete with a draw shot since the CB slides over a longer distance while the curving (swerve) takes place, before the CB heads in a straight line. Because the swerve occurs later, it doesn't cancel as much as the squirt effect, so the net or effective CB deflection will typically be larger with draw shots, especially with more speed (as long as the cue isn't elevated an extra amount, which causes more swerve). For more information, see squerve.

Regards,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

Thank you guys for verifying what I observed was true and not a perception or stroke flaw.

It's funny I only consciously recognized this a few weeks ago after playing for 20 years!

I think now that I know what is supposed to happen, I can aim for that, and keep my stroke straight. I think before when I didn't know what was supposed to happen, I'd make a subconscious mid stroke adjustment to pocket the ball.

I personally like to line up on the stroking line so I'm very pleased with my self discovery

 

[Island Drive]

They are all relative to the conditions. One can get quite a lot of swerve with horizontal 3 or 9 o'clock cueing, all relative to speed/distance/dirt/humidity/ball cleanliness etc.


Butt :kma:
As you elevate, more variables effecting outcome of shot choice are introduced. No mouse click here :thumbup:

 

[iusedtoberich]

Can a player in a game or practice situation distinguish between swerve and deflection and throw?

For example I'm trying to relearn my sighting of my trouble shots. Does it matter that I know which of the 3 mechanisms is affecting a particular shot? Or is the only thing that matters that I figure out how full to sight that particular shot?

 

[CJ Wiley]

premature eshotulation

The use of an upstroke is impossible.

Thank you

Does it cause squirt, swerve, or premature eshotulation?

 

[Mikjary]

Some examples of Efren cueing low and applying follow to the cue ball. Notice the slight, almost imperceptible change in cue tip placement from address. His contact point is very close to a center ball hit despite having the cue ball showing follow from his stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRvwlX3ihRg&feature=player_detailpage#t=397
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRvwlX3ihRg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1693
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=csQeR7p3X8o#t=3678

Best,
Mike

 

[SmoothStroke]

Some examples of Efren cueing low and applying follow to the cue ball. Notice the slight, almost imperceptible change in cue tip placement from address. His contact point is very close to a center ball hit despite having the cue ball showing follow from his stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRvwlX3ihRg&feature=player_detailpage#t=397
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRvwlX3ihRg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1693
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=csQeR7p3X8o#t=3678

Best,
Mike

I posted this about low follow a few years ago.
I said I play low follow and I teach it, starting from the bottom of the cue ball and playing up the ladder.
It's so much easier to control the forward distance needed.
I was told I was crazy and it's impossible, come to Vegas and prove it.
I am still doing it and so are all who learned it, even Efren can do it,,HAHAHA
People still living in the dark ages, scientists.

For the most part we rarely play above center, no reason to.
I am not aiming low and hitting high, I am aiming low and hitting low, it's how you hit it.
Earl also plays a lot of low ball follow.

Sincerely: SS

 

[Mikjary]

I posted this about low follow a few years ago.
I said I play low follow and I teach it, starting from the bottom of the cue ball and playing up the ladder.
It's so much easier to control the forward distance needed.
I was told I was crazy and it's impossible, come to Vegas and prove it.
I am still doing it and so are all who learned it, even Efren can do it,,HAHAHA
People still living in the dark ages, scientists.

For the most part we rarely play above center, no reason to.
I am not aiming low and hitting high, I am aiming low and hitting low, it's how you hit it.
Earl also plays a lot of low ball follow.

Sincerely: SS

You may be crazy, but not about what you posted. :wink: There's been some attention drawn to the "Why" in past threads, especially about the Pinoy players.

Even SVB started doing it after his trip abroad in that region. Anybody can plainly see that what you're referring to hasn't been catalogued yet. Despite the purists objections, it's going to be. We just have to agree on how and where the stroke happens.

Best,
Mike

 

[SmoothStroke]

You may be crazy, but not about what you posted. :wink: There's been some attention drawn to the "Why" in past threads, especially about the Pinoy players.

Even SVB started doing it after his trip abroad in that region. Anybody can plainly see that what you're referring to hasn't been catalogued yet. Despite the purists objections, it's going to be. We just have to agree on how and where the stroke happens.

Best,
Mike

Crazy, I take that as a compliment, thank you.
It's rather easy to play low follow, I think the easiest section of the cue ball to learn how to control.

Have a great day.
Sincerely: SS

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It's rather easy to play low follow

If you mean hitting below center on the CB making it slide a while before starting to roll forward, of course that's a common technique.

But if you mean hitting below center and getting immediate forward roll, then you're talking about defying some very simple physics. Can you also hit the left side of the CB to get right spin?
pj
chgo

 

[SmoothStroke]

Can't hit left and get right but I can hit below center and get immediate forward roll.
Stroke Technique.

Sincerely:SS

 

[Mikjary]

Crazy, I take that as a compliment, thank you.
It's rather easy to play low follow, I think the easiest section of the cue ball to learn how to control.

Have a great day.
Sincerely: SS

If you've been married, had children, and worked a job for somebody else for longer than you can remember, you probably are a little touched. Being a pool player makes it even more so that you've lost your mind. :grin:

I've been working on incorporating some of the lower cueing into my game for a while, but I've maxed out at around a tip below center. I mainly use it to eliminate some of the hop I get from stroking firm above center.

It feels like you hit more of a sweet spot without the tip riding up off of the top of the cue ball. It's great to use instead of slow rolling the cue ball for speed control. What about using it within a foot of the rails?

Best,
Mike

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I can hit below center and get immediate forward roll. ..

If you mean that you are striking the cue ball with the axis of the stick pointed below the center of the cue ball and you are getting significant forward rotation on the cue ball as it leaves the tip, I think you are mistaken.

I know a very good player who thinks he can get draw by hitting the cue ball in the center, but of course he raises his elbow during the stroke and ends up hitting the ball below center. I suspect you are doing something similar.

 

[duckie]

Can't hit left and get right but I can hit below center and get immediate forward roll.
Stroke Technique.

Sincerely:SS

No way.

Try this,

Draw a circle.

Draw a line going from the center of the circle to the edge of the circle at a 45 degree upward angle.

Draw another line as before except with a 45 degree downward angle.

Where the line meets the outer edge of the circle is the the where the cue tip hits the CB.

I call this line the CB torque arm.

There is no way to hit below center and get roll.

Hitting below center causes the CB to rotate in a clockwise manner. For the CB to go forward requires the CB to rotate counter clockwise.

No way can you hit below center and have the CB rotate counter clockwise.