Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime

Baby Huey said:
You had to know who RA's stakehorse was to understand the strength of the game he was playing. There were two stakehorses who RA utilized and I don't think he lost very often for them. One was Lennie Moore who beat all the actors playing GIN at the old Friars Club in Hollywood. Jay could probably shed some light on Lennie Moore, anyway RA was pretty tricky when it came to getting the right bet down at the right time with the right stakehorse and as Jay mentioned earlier, RA won millions playing pool. If you want to really understand how good RA played one pocket, it would be pretty hard to explain why he lost and sometimes on purpose, not dumping, but on purpose to stage something later maybe not even with the person he lost to. I don't think anyone except Fats had the ability to plan scores months in advance except RA. Sure he lost and like most pool players he had good days and bad days. He dogged it occasionally and lost straight up. But over the long haul he was the best, in my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm just curious Huey, 'Who'd RA beat out of those 'Millions?' That's an EXTEREMLY bold statement! I only know ONE pool player that ever WON MILLIONS! And that was Artie, when He went to Vegas and STOPPED playing pool! And brought Vegas to their knees, betting sports!

You talk about 'Lenny Moore,' I was around Lenny in LA with 'NY Pancho,' Marvin Henderson and Phil Spector! Speaking of Lenny, He used to work for Artie in Vegas in the office! I can tell you this, He wouldn't stake RA to play Artie one pocket if you stuck a gun to his head! If YOU have his number, call him and ask him! I think He's still in Palm Springs! He'll give you the REAL 411 on Artie and RA's game if they played!

You guys through those millions around like their Frisbees! Like I said before, RA was known for playing in tournaments! In his era, he went to MORE tournaments than ANY OTHER player of his time!

 
SJDinPHX said:
Did I misread something ???...I believe Cotton agreed with Jay, when he said, "Ronnie was the best player of all time, for the cash !"..and he should surely know !...Then, as an 'add on', he said.."Artie was the smartest !" Where is the argument ? AB still needed weight from RA, to get a chance to prove how smart he was, didn't he :confused:

Amazing, how some people will grasp at any straw, to try and make themselves 'right' !... Too bad Bobby only drops by about once a year ! :sorry:
Click to expand...

SJDinPHX said:
Did I misread something ???...I believe Cotton agreed with Jay, when he said, "Ronnie was the best player of all time, for the cash !"..and he should surely know !...Then, as an 'add on', he said.."Artie was the smartest !" ..Where is the argument ?... AB still needed weight from RA, to even get a chance to prove how smart he was, didn't he :confused:...Could that be why Artie never went to play him in CA ?

Amazing, how SOME people will grasp at any straw, to try and make themselves 'right' !... Too bad Bobby only drops by about once a year ! :sorry:
Click to expand...

Black-Balled said:
You can say that again.
Click to expand...
I believe he did.
 
wincardona said:
This thread is about Frost vs Ronnie and imo their both great players and it would be very difficult to predict who would win, however, when it comes to Reyes there's no comparison. Reyes is the strongest one pocket player in the last 50 plus years..bar none.

There have been people that said that Ronnie was the best cash player of all time, well Ronnie played great for the cash but he was beaten by several of the top players in his era. Taylor beat him and so did Bugs, yes he beat Bugs as well but my point is that he was beatable. Reyes has never been beaten by any top player playing even one pocket, matter of fact Reyes has spotted all the top players and has beaten every one he played. He gave Hopkins 9/8 in NJ and won, Joyner didn't have a chance playing Reyes gettting 8/7 when Joyner was playing his best pool. Joyner is right up there with all the greats when he was in his prime. Reyes gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa where Cook lived and beat him easily. Reyes also gave players like Frost and Corey Deuel 10/7 when they were younger, yes they were not in their prime of life but none the less they were strong players.

Reyes played tournament one pocket better than any one that has ever played the game, six Derby City championships with fields of 300 plus in a race to three:yikes: Are you kidding me!! Dick mentioned that Corey should of beaten Reyes in the U.S. Open three years ago for the title, or a shot to play for the title. Can't argue with him there, however, we're talkin about at that time a 58 year old player. Reyes also beat Shannon in the finals of the Galveston tournament at the age of 56.

When we talk about players the likes of Frost, Allen, Bodendorfer, Joyner Taylor, Metz, imo we're splitting hairs their all playing for second place. I played all the players mentioned with the exception of Taylor and Metz, I have played Reyes many many times..he is clearly the best of all time.

Bill Incardona
Click to expand...

I defer to Billy here. He is the most astute observer of pool that I know. I did see Ronnie do things playing One Pocket that I've never seen anyone else do (before or since), and he had the heart of a lion IF he wanted to win. His conversation alone was probably worth an additional ball, and even Billy would probably not deny that.

Ronnie would hang in there and grind out the score if need be, and I've seen Efren pull up quick if he didn't like the game. I didn't see Artie play in his prime, except when he was "lemoning" in California, so I don't really know how good he played, other than anecdotal. The word on Artie back then was that he was unbeatable at Bensingers, and I do know many good players (Jersey Red, Shorty, Cornbread, Ervolino) tried to beat him and couldn't. Of course those same guys couldn't beat Ronnie either, so I call it a dead heat for second behind Efren.

What I really like about Efren's game is his cue ball control in tight quarters, better than anyone else I ever saw by far. When all the balls went down table, Efren had you. He was the only guy, including Ronnie, that I ever saw run six, seven and eight when all the balls were inside the head string. He would make a bank and get behind the balls and pick them off one by one, playing perfect position each time.

I guess Ronnie mesmerized me with his creativity in shooting balls into the pack and kicking from anywhere and everywhere to turn what appeared to be lost games into instant winners! He made shots that even Efren would be wide eyed by. I suspect that Artie would have devised a defense for Ronnie somehow. My good buddy who I miss every day, Freddie, also swore by Artie and he saw Ronnie play quite a bit. No question it would have been a battle for the ages if those two had ever matched up. But they were probably both too smart for that, like Mayweather and Paquiao. :wink:

P.S. One last thing for "Smitty", Ronnie did indeed play in tournaments, but that was never his focus. He went to them because often that was where he could get the best action. Ronnie spent years of his life on the road chasing down high rolling suckers who could play pool. He would give them virtually any game to get them down and proceed to empty them out. Next to Jack Conney, Ronnie consistently made the biggest scores that I was aware of back then. He'd be gone for a month and come back with 40 or 50K. He might give half of it to his wife and the rest went to the track. I personally watched Ronnie bet 5 and 10K a race in the 70's at Hollywood Park (he had me betting hundreds!), and blow a 25K bankroll in one afternoon. That money had to come from somewhere and Ronnie only had one skill. He couldn't play cards or dice and he didn't sell drugs.
 
Last edited:
jay helfert said:
I defer to Billy here. He is the most astute observer of pool that I know. I did see Ronnie do things playing One Pocket that I've never seen anyone else do (before or since), and he had the heart of a lion IF he wanted to win. His conversation alone was probably worth an additional ball, and even Billy would probably not deny that.

Ronnie would hang in there and grind out the score if need be, and I've seen Efren pull up quick if he didn't like the game. I didn't see Artie play in his prime, except when he was "lemoning" in California, so I don't really know how good he played, other than anecdotal. The word on Artie back then was that he was unbeatable at Bensingers, and I do know many good players (Jersey Red, Shorty, Cornbread, Ervolino) tried to beat him and couldn't. Of course those same guys couldn't beat Ronnie either, so I call it a dead heat for second behind Efren.

What I really like about Efren's game is his cue ball control in tight quarters, better than anyone else I ever saw by far. When all the balls went down table, Efren had you. He was the only guy, including Ronnie, that I ever saw run six, seven and eight when all the balls were inside the head string. He would make a bank and get behind the balls and pick them off one by one, playing perfect position each time.

I guess Ronnie mesmerized me with his creativity in shooting balls into the pack and kicking from anywhere and everywhere to turn what appeared to be lost games into instant winners! He made shots that even Efren would be wide eyed by. I suspect that Artie would have devised a defense for Ronnie somehow. My good buddy who I miss every day, Freddie, also swore by Artie and he saw Ronnie play quite a bit. No question it would have been a battle for the ages if those two had ever matched up. But they were probably both too smart for that, like Mayweather and Paquiao. :wink:

P.S. One last thing for "Smitty", Ronnie did indeed play in tournaments, but that was never his focus. He went to them because often that was where he could get the best action. Ronnie spent years of his life on the road chasing down high rolling suckers who could play pool. He would give them virtually any game to get them down and proceed to empty them out. Next to Jack Conney, Ronnie consistently made the biggest scores that I was aware of back then. He'd be gone for a month and come back with 40 or 50K. He might give half of it to his wife and the rest went to the track. I personally watched Ronnie bet 5 and 10K a race in the 70's at Hollywood Park (he had me betting hundreds!), and blow a 25K bankroll in one afternoon. That money had to come from somewhere and Ronnie only had one skill. He couldn't play cards or dice and he didn't sell drugs.
Click to expand...


That was a great post....you should write a book;)
Thanks Jay!
 
jay helfert said:
I defer to Billy here. He is the most astute observer of pool that I know. I did see Ronnie do things playing One Pocket that I've never seen anyone else do (before or since), and he had the heart of a lion IF he wanted to win. His conversation alone was probably worth an additional ball, and even Billy would probably not deny that.

Ronnie would hang in there and grind out the score if need be, and I've seen Efren pull up quick if he didn't like the game. I didn't see Artie play in his prime, except when he was "lemoning" in California, so I don't really know how good he played, other than anecdotal. The word on Artie back then was that he was unbeatable at Bensingers, and I do know many good players (Jersey Red, Shorty, Cornbread, Ervolino) tried to beat him and couldn't. Of course those same guys couldn't beat Ronnie either, so I call it a dead heat for second behind Efren.

What I really like about Efren's game is his cue ball control in tight quarters, better than anyone else I ever saw by far. When all the balls went down table, Efren had you. He was the only guy, including Ronnie, that I ever saw run six, seven and eight when all the balls were inside the head string. He would make a bank and get behind the balls and pick them off one by one, playing perfect position each time.

I guess Ronnie mesmerized me with his creativity in shooting balls into the pack and kicking from anywhere and everywhere to turn what appeared to be lost games into instant winners! He made shots that even Efren would be wide eyed by. I suspect that Artie would have devised a defense for Ronnie somehow. My good buddy who I miss every day, Freddie, also swore by Artie and he saw Ronnie play quite a bit. No question it would have been a battle for the ages if those two had ever matched up. But they were probably both too smart for that, like Mayweather and Paquiao. :wink:

P.S. One last thing for "Smitty", Ronnie did indeed play in tournaments, but that was never his focus. He went to them because often that was where he could get the best action. Ronnie spent years of his life on the road chasing down high rolling suckers who could play pool. He would give them virtually any game to get them down and proceed to empty them out. Next to Jack Conney, Ronnie consistently made the biggest scores that I was aware of back then. He'd be gone for a month and come back with 40 or 50K. He might give half of it to his wife and the rest went to the track. I personally watched Ronnie bet 5 and 10K a race in the 70's at Hollywood Park (he had me betting hundreds!), and blow a 25K bankroll in one afternoon. That money had to come from somewhere and Ronnie only had one skill. He couldn't play cards or dice and he didn't sell drugs.
Click to expand...

Jay; it's NOT many people that are mentioned that bring REAL tears to my eyes, it still bothers me when an old friend like yourself remembers Freddy with fondness! Thanks buddy!

The few names you mentioned Jay, were just a token number of players Artie played and beat unmercifully! I could add to the list, but, what's the use now! I will relay a direct quote from Bugs to his backer and life long friend, Jerry Hubbard. Jerry asked Bugs, 'Since who played both, RA and Artie, who would win in that match?' Bugs reply to Jerry was, 'If Artie and Ronnie played for BIG$ 5 ahead, Artie would have Ronnie throwing his cue on the floor!'

This is from a man that played both in their prime! And Bugs had beaten RA 2 out of 3 outings! Bugs NEVER beat Artie playing 9/8 or playing EVEN!

I want to go back to the 'Topic' now!

IMHO, Efren is a 'COMPLETE' player! Plays ALL games TOP level, still to this day!

In their prime, I think there's NO game Scott could have won at, 9 ball, 10 Ball, Banks, Straight-Pool, One Pocket and for sure ANY Carom game!

Scott's a GREAT player, but, NOT a close 2nd to what Efren was, yet!

Just because I don't play top level pool, doesn't mean I don't who's who and what's what! Jay knows I've been around a long time and what I've done with my 'niche' game in the cue gambling arena!
 
mr3cushion said:


Jay; it's NOT many people that are mentioned that bring REAL tears to my eyes, it still bothers me when an old friend like yourself remembers Freddy with fondness! Thanks buddy!

The few names you mentioned Jay, were just a token number of players Artie played and beat unmercifully! I could add to the list, but, what's the use now! I will relay a direct quote from Bugs to his backer and life long friend, Jerry Hubbard. Jerry asked Bugs, 'Since who played both, RA and Artie, who would win in that match?' Bugs reply to Jerry was, 'If Artie and Ronnie played for BIG$ 5 ahead, Artie would have Ronnie throwing his cue on the floor!'

This is from a man that played both in their prime! And Bugs had beaten RA 2 out of 3 outings! Bugs NEVER beat Artie playing 9/8 or playing EVEN!

I want to go back to the 'Topic' now!

IMHO, Efren is a 'COMPLETE' player! Plays ALL games TOP level, still to this day!

In their prime, I think there's NO game Scott could have won at, 9 ball, 10 Ball, Banks, Straight-Pool, One Pocket and for sure ANY Carom game!

Scott's a GREAT player, but, NOT a close 2nd to what Efren was, yet!

Just because I don't play top level pool, doesn't mean I don't who's who and what's what! Jay knows I've been around a long time and what I've done with my 'niche' game in the cue gambling arena!
Click to expand...

You in the East and Al Gold out west were the two best Three Cushion money players. That much I do know. I don't know if you two ever tangled, so you can tell me now. Of course, Al would say no one ever beat him for money, that's just how he was. Kind of a Three Cushion version of Fats. :D
 
jay helfert said:
One last thing for "Smitty", Ronnie did indeed play in tournaments, but that was never his focus. He went to them because often that was where he could get the best action. Ronnie spent years of his life on the road chasing down high rolling suckers who could play pool. He would give them virtually any game to get them down and proceed to empty them out. Next to Jack Cooney, Ronnie consistently made the biggest scores that I was aware of back then. He'd be gone for a month and come back with 40 or 50K. He might give half of it to his wife and the rest went to the track. I personally watched Ronnie bet 5 and 10K a race in the 70's at Hollywood Park (he had me betting hundreds!), and blow a 25K bankroll in one afternoon. That money had to come from somewhere and Ronnie only had one skill. He couldn't play cards or dice and he didn't sell drugs.<--Maybe he sold fake jewelry ?..I hear theres huge money in that ! :cool:
Click to expand...

Jay ol' pal...You are spinning your wheels, trying to convince certain people, of anything that goes against their ultra-extreme' bias !...Even though they never played ANY pocket game competitively, they are going to try and convince everyone that they know everything there is to know, about the finer points of gambling at pool, or one pocket ! (albeit 2nd hand)...Its sort of like a terrible disease, and there appears to be NO known cure ! :frown:

SJD

PS..I have NO room to talk though..I have been wasting time, and ink on them for 5 yrs. ! :o
 
Last edited:
jay helfert said:
You in the East and Al Gold out west were the two best Three Cushion money players. That much I do know. I don't know if you two ever tangled, so you can tell me now. Of course, Al would say no one ever beat him for money, that's just how he was. Kind of a Three Cushion version of Fats. :D
Click to expand...

Jay; Al was a VERY good friend of mine, obviously you know He was originally from Chicago! But, Al was much older than me, I think He'd be about 85 now, I sure miss him, We'd talk all the time on the phone, and when I moved to LA, we were together all the time.

I think it was an unspoken certainty that He and I were the Best 'Cash' players and Al being a better tournament player than me. We knew we didn't have to prove to anyone, especially to ourselves! At one time I had over 200 hundred trophies in the Den, one day I looked at them all collecting dust and put them out for the garbage man!

Al was a 'smart' player with GREAT defence, I on the other hand have always possessed a 'powerful, effective' stroke and know how to WIN under any circumstances! When ever we were both in the same tournament, we always cut up the money according to our finish! We ALWAYS made the Finals!

There are many answers in the history of billiards that have and may never be answered! The one about this thread is one of them, along with, RA against Artie B. or even AL Gilbert and I! Or ANY other 2 GREAT players that never had the opportunity to 'cross swords!'

 
SJDinPHX said:
Jay ol' pal...You are spinning your wheels, trying to convince certain people, of anything that goes against their ultra-extreme' bias !...Even though they never played ANY pocket game competitively, they are going to try and convince everyone that they know everything there is to know, about the finer points of gambling at pool, or one pocket ! (albeit 2nd hand)...Its sort of like a terrible disease, and there appears to be NO known cure ! :frown:

SJD

PS..I have NO room to talk though..I have been wasting time, and ink on them for 5 yrs. ! :o
Click to expand...

I can guarantee everyone here, that I've played 'One Pocket' for MORE per game than YOU ever dreamed of playing for in your entire life!

In Detroit, Freddy and I played $10,000.00 a man partners against 'Calhoun' and 'Superfly,' on the front table of the joint! I had just made a BIG score there and staked our game! Dr Bill can verify this!

I wouldn't go around spouting off about who knows what and who's done what! that's another thing you couldn't complete at, winning money! You were usually on the other end, the 'minus column!'
 
I'm just curious Huey, 'Who'd RA beat out of those 'Millions?' That's an EXTEREMLY bold statement! I only know ONE pool player that ever WON MILLIONS! And that was Artie, when He went to Vegas and STOPPED playing pool! And brought Vegas to their knees, betting sports!

You talk about 'Lenny Moore,' I was around Lenny in LA with 'NY Pancho,' Marvin Henderson and Phil Spector! Speaking of Lenny, He used to work for Artie in Vegas in the office! I can tell you this, He wouldn't stake RA to play Artie one pocket if you stuck a gun to his head! If YOU have his number, call him and ask him! I think He's still in Palm Springs! He'll give you the REAL 411 on Artie and RA's game if they played!

You guys through those millions around like their Frisbees! Like I said before, RA was known for playing in tournaments! In his era, he went to MORE tournaments than ANY OTHER player of his time!

Mr. 3 Cushion - RA played everywhere and would be gone on the road for weeks and months at a time. Always to come back to Burbank with his family and then go off at the Race Track. Jay and I were talking about RA the other day and the amount of money he'd bet at the track and lose on a consistent basis was truly amazing. Where did he get the cash to go off like that? He'd slip into a town and lay low only to trap some unsuspecting player out of his cash. No one could trap players better than him. He knew a players breaking point bet wise better than anyone I know. Only Jack Cooney comes close to RA in score making ability. Remember he played for serious cash all the time for 60 plus years. How much do you think he won during that time? There was no tournament circuit, no internet and no way of anyone knowing who he was except by reputation. He also won his share of money playing golf as well. I think him winning at least two million might be an understatement given what I know about his gambling and this was when the average worker made maybe 10K per year. So is Artie the better player? Maybe he was but on a neutral site I am not so sure. It would be a game to watch either way no one would dominate that game. I think they would be like two lions going at each other and neither would like to rumble like that too many times without coming out scarred, beaten up and bruised.
 
Baby Huey said:
I'm just curious Huey, 'Who'd RA beat out of those 'Millions?' That's an EXTEREMLY bold statement! I only know ONE pool player that ever WON MILLIONS! And that was Artie, when He went to Vegas and STOPPED playing pool! And brought Vegas to their knees, betting sports!

You talk about 'Lenny Moore,' I was around Lenny in LA with 'NY Pancho,' Marvin Henderson and Phil Spector! Speaking of Lenny, He used to work for Artie in Vegas in the office! I can tell you this, He wouldn't stake RA to play Artie one pocket if you stuck a gun to his head! If YOU have his number, call him and ask him! I think He's still in Palm Springs! He'll give you the REAL 411 on Artie and RA's game if they played!

You guys through those millions around like their Frisbees! Like I said before, RA was known for playing in tournaments! In his era, he went to MORE tournaments than ANY OTHER player of his time!

Mr. 3 Cushion - RA played everywhere and would be gone on the road for weeks and months at a time. Always to come back to Burbank with his family and then go off at the Race Track. Jay and I were talking about RA the other day and the amount of money he'd bet at the track and lose on a consistent basis was truly amazing. Where did he get the cash to go off like that? He'd slip into a town and lay low only to trap some unsuspecting player out of his cash. No one could trap players better than him. He knew a players breaking point bet wise better than anyone I know. Only Jack Cooney comes close to RA in score making ability. Remember he played for serious cash all the time for 60 plus years. How much do you think he won during that time? There was no tournament circuit, no internet and no way of anyone knowing who he was except by reputation. He also won his share of money playing golf as well. I think him winning at least two million might be an understatement given what I know about his gambling and this was when the average worker made maybe 10K per year. So is Artie the better player? Maybe he was but on a neutral site I am not so sure. It would be a game to watch either way no one would dominate that game. I think they would be like two lions going at each other and neither would like to rumble like that too many times without coming out scarred, beaten up and bruised.
Click to expand...

This is why we have these forums, opinions! We'll just have to 'agree to disagree!'
No harm, NO foul!

Take care.
 
There were several players win over a million dollars in THE RACK (Detroit)

Baby Huey said:
I'm just curious Huey, 'Who'd RA beat out of those 'Millions?' That's an EXTEREMLY bold statement! I only know ONE pool player that ever WON MILLIONS! And that was Artie, when He went to Vegas and STOPPED playing pool! And brought Vegas to their knees, betting sports!

You talk about 'Lenny Moore,' I was around Lenny in LA with 'NY Pancho,' Marvin Henderson and Phil Spector! Speaking of Lenny, He used to work for Artie in Vegas in the office! I can tell you this, He wouldn't stake RA to play Artie one pocket if you stuck a gun to his head! If YOU have his number, call him and ask him! I think He's still in Palm Springs! He'll give you the REAL 411 on Artie and RA's game if they played!

You guys through those millions around like their Frisbees! Like I said before, RA was known for playing in tournaments! In his era, he went to MORE tournaments than ANY OTHER player of his time!

Mr. 3 Cushion - RA played everywhere and would be gone on the road for weeks and months at a time. Always to come back to Burbank with his family and then go off at the Race Track. Jay and I were talking about RA the other day and the amount of money he'd bet at the track and lose on a consistent basis was truly amazing. Where did he get the cash to go off like that? He'd slip into a town and lay low only to trap some unsuspecting player out of his cash. No one could trap players better than him. He knew a players breaking point bet wise better than anyone I know. Only Jack Cooney comes close to RA in score making ability. Remember he played for serious cash all the time for 60 plus years. How much do you think he won during that time? There was no tournament circuit, no internet and no way of anyone knowing who he was except by reputation. He also won his share of money playing golf as well. I think him winning at least two million might be an understatement given what I know about his gambling and this was when the average worker made maybe 10K per year. So is Artie the better player? Maybe he was but on a neutral site I am not so sure. It would be a game to watch either way no one would dominate that game. I think they would be like two lions going at each other and neither would like to rumble like that too many times without coming out scarred, beaten up and bruised.
Click to expand...


There were several players win over a million dollars in THE RACK (Detroit). One guy ("Rosey") lost over $15,000,000 and there were a couple more that also lost millions (Paul, Cletus, Freddie).
 
Why the constant venom, especially you two? Grow up. You both sound like a couple of 5 year old titty babies fighting over who gets the first pancake...
 
Hungarian said:
Why the constant venom, especially you two? Grow up. You both sound like a couple of 5 year old titty babies fighting over who gets the first pancake...
Click to expand...

If you are referring to Mr3c and I, it is not 'venom'..it is pure hatred !..If you knew the whole story, you would feel exactly the same way I do !...But you obviously don't, so staying out of it would be appreciated ! :o

SJD--(besides, there is no known cure for HIS condition !)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top