The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose

[KMRUNOUT]

Watch this video of Efren playing. Notice at 2:00 - 2:06 and see what he does with his back hand.

This is not a "slip stroke" like Cornbread used to do, however, it accomplishes many of the same things......many players do this, it's just not detectable until you are made aware of it.

LINK TO EFREN REYES VIDEO - NOTICE 2:00 - 2:06

It looked to me like he was in a rhythm, a quick pace, and was simply combining the tasks of positioning the cue in his grip and doing some practice strokes. It did not appear on his final practice stroke that we could see that the cue moved in his grip.

I would not consider what it shown here as "part" of the stroke.

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

I believe in controlling the cue, not letting the cue control me.

I'm not convinced. Give it a bit more, it may turn out to be fantastic for you. How would you find that out if you just dismiss it as a fluke? Never, ever toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Personally, I think the reason so many great players used it in the past was because they were already great players. It's not a stroke for guys with otherwise poor fundamentals.

You are still a great player, even if you aren't up there in the limelight at the present. It's players of your caliber who will be able to extract all it offers, not the dilettantes like myself who try it just to see what it's all about. It doesn't have to replace your regular stroke. You can master it and then just pull it out when the situation calls for it. Just like Mosconi did.

I have no desire to use a slip-stroke, as I've said, there's a better way to utilize the same type technique. Under pressure I would not be comfortable gripping and re-gripping the cue....like I told Cornbread Red, "if you use that against me you'll "slip" and fall down".......I believe in controlling the cue, not letting the cue control me.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I have no desire to use a slip-stroke, as I've said, there's a better way to utilize the same type technique. Under pressure I would not be comfortable gripping and re-gripping the cue....like I told Cornbread Red, "if you use that against me you'll "slip" and fall down".......I believe in controlling the cue, not letting the cue control me.

Well, you are controlling the cue with a slip stroke. You think it just goes forward after the re-grip all by itself? :shrug: Maybe you are still confused about what the slip stroke is? It slips on the back stroke, not the forward stroke. After the re-grip, you are in total control of it. Heck, you could even apply a "hammer" stroke finish if you thought that would do any good.

Hey, I'm the last guy who would really think he could re-make CJ Wiley into the player he used to be. I don't believe in suggesting adjustments to anybody's stroke unless it is really unsound. That includes us mortals as well. But I'm sure you'll keep at it anyway, telling us over and over again we should use your stroke for better control and accuracy. FYI it feels like this. :bash:

Now, I am interested in hearing about your "better ways to utilize the same type technique". I'm kinda curious to find out how you can readjust your grip hand rearward during the course of the back stroke... without actually slipping it back there.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It feels great, just doubt if it will hold up under the pressure

Well, you are controlling the cue with a slip stroke. You think it just goes forward after the re-grip all by itself? :shrug: Maybe you are still confused about what the slip stroke is? It slips on the back stroke, not the forward stroke. After the re-grip, you are in total control of it. Heck, you could even apply a "hammer" stroke finish if you thought that would do any good.

Hey, I'm the last guy who would really think he could re-make CJ Wiley into the player he used to be. I don't believe in suggesting adjustments to anybody's stroke unless it is really unsound. That includes us mortals as well. But I'm sure you'll keep at it anyway, telling us over and over again we should use your stroke for better control and accuracy. FYI it feels like this. :bash:

Now, I am interested in hearing about your "better ways to utilize the same type technique". I'm kinda curious to find out how you can readjust your grip hand rearward during the course of the back stroke... without actually slipping it back there.

Yes, I'm in control of it, just not used to the hand pressure. It feels great, just doubt if it will hold up under the pressure I sometimes play under. I'm playing as well as possible, there's no reason to change anything at this point.

If you weren't so condescending I would go to great lengths to help you understand anything about pool. However, you are becoming apparent that you are not my friend and only seek to chastise me for some reason....do I really deserve this? If you think so, that's quite alright, please acknowledge I have the same freedom of choice, and I choose to not answer your questions ever again. God Bless You and Yours.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

CJ, I'm really sorry. I am just busting on you. You seem to take it in stride and hand it right back. Perhaps I've gone too far, and I regret doing that.

I have said over and over here how many times you drop little bombs of knowledge here that go right over your stalker's heads because they are so fixated on bringing you down. Trust me, I'm not like them. In my own odd way, I am actually mocking them.

I'll lay off ribbing you entirely from now on. Obviously I have struck a nerve and hope you will excuse what you feel are bad manners. Maybe you haven't noticed it, but many of us rib each other pretty hard, but we all still consider ourselves friends on this board. Look at all the grief poor Lou got from finally having to admit that Mosconi at least used a slip stroke once in history. Lol

Again, my sincerest apologies to you. If you ever get up this way we can meet and I'll treat to to a nice dinner at my favorite steak house.

 

[CJ Wiley]

my mind was not on pool instruction or playing today

CJ, I'm really sorry. I am just busting on you. You seem to take it in stride and hand it right back. Perhaps I've gone too far, and I regret doing that.

I have said over and over here how many times you drop little bombs of knowledge here that go right over your stalker's heads because they are so fixated on bringing you down. Trust me, I'm not like them. In my own odd way, I am actually mocking them.

I'll lay off ribbing you entirely from now on. Obviously I have struck a nerve and hope you will excuse what you feel are bad manners. Maybe you haven't noticed it, but many of us rib each other pretty hard, but we all still consider ourselves friends on this board. Look at all the grief poor Lou got from finally having to admit that Mosconi at least used a slip stroke once in history. Lol

Again, my sincerest apologies to you. If you ever get up this way we can meet and I'll treat to to a nice dinner at my favorite steak house.

No need to apologize, however, I will accept it. These last 12 hours have been some of the most memorable in my life, my mind was not on pool instruction or playing today.

I've always been generous and forthcoming with my knowledge and willing to answer questions. There is a common courtesy though and all I ask is to be treated with common courtesy if you desire me to share something.....this is a reasonable request.

I enjoy a good steak at Ruth's Chris, so when I'm around your area make sure to request a reservation.

PS: I'm sure you're a really nice guy......in person. LoL

 

[billy bones]

I came across this old post because I typed in Junior Slipstroke on the internet. I knew him. In 1977 they best for local talent in Dallas were reputed to be Junior Slipstroke and Steve Hines. I hung out at a Willies pool hall 1204 S. Buckner Blvd. Junior Slipstroke and Steve Hines were regulars there.

Junior once said he would go to different towns in disguise, like a mechanic outfit covered in grease, no toupee, glasses. Find action, figure how to best take off his mark. He would return later, driving a nice car, in a suit, toupee , contacts in and take off the mark. I was a young player and he took the time to talk to me on several occasions.

I remember this very clearly remember this occasion. Steve Hines had suffered a resounding loss which I witnessed myself. His opponent broke and ran 12 racks, a feat I have not seen repeated until about 8 months ago. Junior told Steve that the first thing he has to negotiate with World Beaters was the break. Steve had gotten a monster spot but failed to get the break and he never got a shot.

I tried to post this as a reply to a previous entry asking about Junior Slipstroke, but it placed it at the end of the thread. Oh well

 

[Jaden]

The purpose of the slip stroke...

The purpose is to allow the weight of the cue to do the work. I developed a device for doing this many years ago and am about to launch it. It's called the perfect grip. It's a device you attach to your hand that allows you to tightly grip, but foam padding grips the cue lightly, allowing the cue to do the work.

I had showed it to Max Eberle and a few other players back in the day and they liked the idea. Max thought I should focus on the higher end custom ones, that conform specifically to an individual players grip.

At first I won't, it will be a one or two sizes fits all sort of thing with separate ones for left and right handers at a more reasonable cost.

I'll post a thread after I get the 3d printed prototype done, I'll probably send one to a few players on here to try out as well. The original prototype disappeared when I left the shop I was making cues out of back in 2012.

Jaden

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The purpose is to allow the weight of the cue to do the work.

Isn't the purpose to take the grip out of the equation so it won't tighten up mid-stroke and pull the tip offline?

I developed a device for doing this many years ago and am about to launch it. It's called the perfect grip. It's a device you attach to your hand that allows you to tightly grip, but foam padding grips the cue lightly, allowing the cue to do the work.

Why wouldn't tightening the grip still pull the tip offline?

Interested to see your device.

pj
chgo

 

[JohnnyP]

Stroke-slip allows the cue to do the work.

Release the cue during the forward stroke, just before impact.

Slip-stroke is where you re-grip the cue during the back swing.

Many "old time" straight pool players used a forward grip. Their stroking hand was well into the follow through at contact.

When they needed to put a little extra stroke on the ball, they would re-grip the cue at the start of the back swing, moving their grip hand back a bit.

At impact, the stroke hand will be closer to the bottom of the arc at contact, imparting higher cue speed.

 

[JohnnyP]

I posted my theory in a previous thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5825058&postcount=107

Re-posted here:

...Does the slipstroke add anything to the stroke? I don't believe it does one iota.(and the science of the stroke says it doesn't) I think it is nothing more than he liked to hold the cue at or near the balance point.

Copying my post from an earlier thread on this:

This photo shows my cue was decelerating before impact:

It looks like I hit the cue ball about 30msec late.

My theory about why (some say) you can get more action with a slip stroke is that it changes your stroke timing. The stick is getting a few inches head start.

Bob Jewitt and Dr. Dave posted this video showing cue speed for a "medium" pendulum stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfzUvIzKJR4#t=90

Near the end of the stroke the cue is traveling about 5.5 mph.

Convert this to inches per msec:

5.5 mi x 5280 ft x 1 hr x 1 min x 1 sec x 12 in
------- -------- ----- ------ ------ ------
1 hr 1 mi 60 min 60 sec 1000msec 1 ft

= 0.0968 inches per msec.

I contacted the cue ball 30 msec late, so 0.0968 x 30 = 2.9 inches.

Bingo, with a 2.9" slip stroke I would have contacted the cue ball at max cue speed, compensating for my decelerating cue.

From post #54 of the same thread:

The acceleration graph I posted shows I hit the cue ball late. I'm thinking that my stroke hand was a few inches forward of 90° when I addressed the cue ball. I'm often told I need to move my grip hand back a few inches.

In other words, I was already into the follow through at the address. I was near the end of my stroke at contact, so the cue had to be decelerating.

If you look at many of the old straight poolers, their stroking hand is forward of 90° at the address. Without a huge elbow drop, the cue was near the end of travel at the contact point.

I think the slip stroke was used to "get a little extra" stroke on the ball, without knowing why it worked.

Refer to the calculation in my above post. A 2.9" slip stroke would have shifted the stroke timing enough to move the hit from a decelerating one to one at max cue speed.

Now we know why it works.

 

[book collector]

I always thought the purpose of the slip stroke was to eliminate inaccuracy caused by the back swing.

Lou Figueroa

That was what was explained to me also.

 

[deanoc]

the stroke starts with the arm hanging pperpendicular to the cue ball
when i slip it back say 2inches,then begin the stroke

i stll take the cue back the same stroke length
but when i come forward my follow through
is automatically further

my idea that a follow through is a good thing and
the slip stroke causes me to have a little bit longer bach stroke and
follow through

i have experienced more draw english when i tried the slip strome

n
billly stroud and i were speaking the other day and he brought
up a name from 50 years ago who had a beautiful slip stroke Jerry Trig

He not only had a beautiful stroke but he could really draw his ball

i only saw him once over 50 years ago and the image of his beautiful stroke
remains with me to this day,i even remembered his name and i only saw him hit
5 or 6 shots,and never saw hi or heard his name until billy brought it up

of course his stroke didn't help him beat Billy,but it sure looked good
talk about moving the cue ball


next time i saw a slip stroke was Willie Mosconi and then Jimmy Moore,

i have only seen 3 guys with a slip but i wish i had the slip stroke