There goes a good thread.

How can this lost info be retrieved?

I am a cue repairnoid. It takes all my might to keep from jumping into the cuemaker endiver.

I am enthalled by the cuemaker's interchanges. The insight into the deep details as these guys were talking about adds to a general knowledge for the unwashed. A "simple" thing like rings are not so simple, ain't it?

I feel this type of information helps me talk cue to the people I come in contact with - and that can only help the pool business in general. Yes, the BS got abit out of hand. The baby that got thrown out with the bath water will be missed.
 
There are other ways to gain knowledge and learn new ways to do things other than here on AZ.
There are books, videos, and many willing experienced cue makers ready to share what they know to anyone showing a desire to learn.
Having a thread pulled form here is not really much of a loss.
Dont ever forget we are all here by privilege ... not by right.
There are several reasons you dont see a lot of the older and more successful cue makers posting here.
One good one is they just dont have the time or want to use it posting here.
I have learned a lot about cue making here over the years but also wasted a lot of time reading the battle of wits.

Willee
 
Personally speaking, I think folks should have thicker skin. Conversation here shouldn't be any more formal than if we were all sitting at a bar, drinking beer & eating a burger, while discussing the topic at hand. In that environment, talking trash & telling a guy to shut up because he's speaking rubbish, is completely acceptable. Granted that getting personal in such a way as bashing on someone's race, heritage, ethinicity, etc., even if completely false, should never be tolerated. A person resorting to such negativity should be removed, quite simply. Pointing out blatantly false & potentially damaging information that's related to the topic should not be censored nor removed. It's critical that both sides of a topic be at least equally represented.

Again, that's my personal feelings. I'm not here to put on a seminar. I'm here to discuss techniques with others who may see or do things differently, much like when colleagues gather at a bar to discuss occupational topics over a cold one. I prefer to conversate with peers, folks whom I can relate to because they have years of experience as I. I'm willing to share my experience with them as they share with me. Naturally there will be beneficiaries who overhear the conversation, and that's perfectly fine because it's one of the many ways to learn from the established people of your chosen field. Notice I say overhear, meaning to listen only, or at most chime in with a question now & again for clarification. That's a far cry from butting yourself into a topic you know absolutely nothing about, have no experience with, and then begin spewing BS as if you're "one of the guys". Anybody ever see me chiming in on CNC topics to tout my expertise? Nope. Reason being very simply because I don't know jack sh!t compared to the guys who really do know, so I read carefully (overhear) & make mental or physical notes when something new to me is revealed. I dare speak a word, only listen, and LEARN. If the guys I'm listening to begin arguing, even if it gets heated, I'm not bothered by it. It doesn't affect me in the least, because I'm nothing but a bystander. In the military, I would sometimes be in the company of high ranking officers &/or dignitaries as they discussed things way above my paygrade. I'd listen, quietly, and make mental notes to each maneuver so I could store it away & draw from that technique for a time when I myself may be in that situation. I dared speak a word, as I had no place in the conversation, let alone be brazen enough to butt in with my uneducated two cents. I couldn't imagine what would happen if I tried BSing my way into the discussion, being called on it, then insulting them with ethnic slurs because they put me in my place by exposing my ignorance. I was privileged to be present as I was being groomed for a job I may someday have. Turns out I chose a different path, but regardless, there's a place for everybody involved in a discussion, and one should know his place. Yet again, that's nothing but my own feelings. Apparently others are cut from a different cloth.

Sorry for the long winded post. I know several folks (including myself) shared info far beyond what they typically would have, and only did so because others were also sharing invaluable experience based knowledge. It was a very good conversation, and it was ruined because somebody got called on their BS & took it so personally that they resorted to spewing ethnic insults. Kinda pisses me off
 
qbilder said:
Personally speaking, I think folks should have thicker skin. Conversation here shouldn't be any more formal than if we were all sitting at a bar, drinking beer & eating a burger, while discussing the topic at hand. In that environment, talking trash & telling a guy to shut up because he's speaking rubbish, is completely acceptable.
Click to expand...


The problem is people here hide behind their computers and say stuff that they would never say in person to a person 3 feet away from them. Additionally, most people would not be confrontational in person just because it's a waste of their time and/or for fear of being punched out so they usually clam up and/or walk away. However, online some people are more inclined to bash others without fear of reprisal or having some teeth knocked out.

As an aside, I was once in a 4 way conversation with several well know cue makers and one was talking trash. We all let him and when he left no one commented on anything he said because we all knew that nothing needed to be said. It isn't worth the aggravation to listen to more BS if we disagreed with the party in question. Online -- everyone has big cajones and so the beat goes on.

That's why lately all I do is eat popcorn because you can't argue with know-it-alls.
 
Joe Barringer said:
The problem is people here hide behind their computers and say stuff that they would never say in person to a person 3 feet away from them. Additionally, most people would not be confrontational in person just because it's a waste of their time and/or for fear of being punched out so they usually clam up and/or walk away. However, online some people are more inclined to bash others without fear of reprisal or having some teeth knocked out.

As an aside, I was once in a 4 way conversation with several well know cue makers and one was talking trash. We all let him and when he left no one commented on anything he said because we all knew that nothing needed to be said. It isn't worth the aggravation to listen to more BS if we disagreed with the party in question. Online -- everyone has big cajones and so the beat goes on.

That's why lately all I do is eat popcorn because you can't argue with know-it-alls.
Click to expand...

Being fearful to speak my mind, due to threat of violence, is something I have never been accused of. Anybody who thinks so simply hasn't had the pleasure of meeting me. An introduction can always be arranged.

The real problem here is a few people that feel urged to pretend they know things, then inject themselves into almost every topic of conversation to pump their bullsh!t. When called out on it, the first thing they do is offer up some bogus verification to legitimize their knowledge. When that doesn't work, they resort to belittling or trying to discredit others. Finally, a a last ditch hail Mary, they spew filth & insult & name calling. At this point, the mods shut down the entire thread so that nobody can ever read it again. The usual suspect gets a warning or short ban, then is free to get back to it, without the world being able to access the moments where they show their true character. It's a play on forum rules, rules which are put in place to limit troll activity. It's a predictable, dependable sequence of events, a science if you will. The worst of trolls are those who create shills, aliases, and other alter egos to further carry on their misinformation. Despicable.
 
qbilder said:
Personally speaking, I think folks should have thicker skin. Conversation here shouldn't be any more formal than if we were all sitting at a bar, drinking beer & eating a burger, while discussing the topic at hand. In that environment, talking trash & telling a guy to shut up because he's speaking rubbish, is completely acceptable. Granted that getting personal in such a way as bashing on someone's race, heritage, ethinicity, etc., even if completely false, should never be tolerated. A person resorting to such negativity should be removed, quite simply. Pointing out blatantly false & potentially damaging information that's related to the topic should not be censored nor removed. It's critical that both sides of a topic be at least equally represented.

Again, that's my personal feelings. I'm not here to put on a seminar. I'm here to discuss techniques with others who may see or do things differently, much like when colleagues gather at a bar to discuss occupational topics over a cold one. I prefer to conversate with peers, folks whom I can relate to because they have years of experience as I. I'm willing to share my experience with them as they share with me. Naturally there will be beneficiaries who overhear the conversation, and that's perfectly fine because it's one of the many ways to learn from the established people of your chosen field. Notice I say overhear, meaning to listen only, or at most chime in with a question now & again for clarification. That's a far cry from butting yourself into a topic you know absolutely nothing about, have no experience with, and then begin spewing BS as if you're "one of the guys". Anybody ever see me chiming in on CNC topics to tout my expertise? Nope. Reason being very simply because I don't know jack sh!t compared to the guys who really do know, so I read carefully (overhear) & make mental or physical notes when something new to me is revealed. I dare speak a word, only listen, and LEARN. If the guys I'm listening to begin arguing, even if it gets heated, I'm not bothered by it. It doesn't affect me in the least, because I'm nothing but a bystander. In the military, I would sometimes be in the company of high ranking officers &/or dignitaries as they discussed things way above my paygrade. I'd listen, quietly, and make mental notes to each maneuver so I could store it away & draw from that technique for a time when I myself may be in that situation. I dared speak a word, as I had no place in the conversation, let alone be brazen enough to butt in with my uneducated two cents. I couldn't imagine what would happen if I tried BSing my way into the discussion, being called on it, then insulting them with ethnic slurs because they put me in my place by exposing my ignorance. I was privileged to be present as I was being groomed for a job I may someday have. Turns out I chose a different path, but regardless, there's a place for everybody involved in a discussion, and one should know his place. Yet again, that's nothing but my own feelings. Apparently others are cut from a different cloth.

Sorry for the long winded post. I know several folks (including myself) shared info far beyond what they typically would have, and only did so because others were also sharing invaluable experience based knowledge. It was a very good conversation, and it was ruined because somebody got called on their BS & took it so personally that they resorted to spewing ethnic insults. Kinda pisses me off
Click to expand...

That is perfectly fine amongst cue makers only! Unfortunately, potential buyers peak in on these conversations/post and ascertain who knows their stuff and who doesn't! No one likes to get shown up in front of potential customers! Bad for business??? Yes! Plus, these threads are darn near eternal!

Kd
 
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Kid Dynomite said:
That is perfectly fine amongst cue makers only! Unfortunately, potential buyers peak in on these conversations/post and ascertain who knows their stuff and who doesn't! No one likes to get shown up in front of potential customers! Bad for business??? Yes! Plus, these threads are darn near eternal!

Kd
Click to expand...

I can see that point. And for that point above many others, it's a good idea to have some tact & mutual respect. Sometimes it's not so easy to have either, especially with a guy who constantly insists on chiming in, even when he really has nothing of value to add. Rather, he seemingly makes something up as if to make people think he's more knowledgeable on the subject than he really is. It's he who should have some tact, so as to not get shown up in front of his customers.

You are a quite the accomplished player, are you not? Let's assume, for hypothetical purpose, that jumping is something you are especially talented with because you have spent eons practicing, studying, perfecting the technique. You're on a forum discussing that very topic with other players who are as knowledgeable as yourself on the topic of jumping, and somebody chimes in to your conversation giving advice & talking shop as if he's one of you, but the information is totally bogus. What do you do? Do you exclaim that his info is false, and hope he hushes? Then what if he begins becoming defensive, offensive, then just outright nasty? Worse yet, he's not only ruining a great & rare conversation you are having with so many actual peers, but there are up-n-comers listening in who are eager to learn something. Worse yet again, you have fans peeking in to hear the real pros discussing the game we all love. Now imagine that this same guy does the same thing over & over, constantly. Are you going to sit idly by & allow this poser to contaminate the information being discussed? I wouldn't think so. Nor shall we.
 
qbilder said:
I can see that point. And for that point above many others, it's a good idea to have some tact & mutual respect. Sometimes it's not so easy to have either, especially with a guy who constantly insists on chiming in, even when he really has nothing of value to add. Rather, he seemingly makes something up as if to make people think he's more knowledgeable on the subject than he really is. It's he who should have some tact, so as to not get shown up in front of his customers.

You are a quite the accomplished player, are you not? Let's assume, for hypothetical purpose, that jumping is something you are especially talented with because you have spent eons practicing, studying, perfecting the technique. You're on a forum discussing that very topic with other players who are as knowledgeable as yourself on the topic of jumping, and somebody chimes in to your conversation giving advice & talking shop as if he's one of you, but the information is totally bogus. What do you do? Do you exclaim that his info is false, and hope he hushes? Then what if he begins becoming defensive, offensive, then just outright nasty? Worse yet, he's not only ruining a great & rare conversation you are having with so many actual peers, but there are up-n-comers listening in who are eager to learn something. Worse yet again, you have fans peeking in to hear the real pros discussing the game we all love. Now imagine that this same guy does the same thing over & over, constantly. Are you going to sit idly by & allow this poser to contaminate the information being discussed? I wouldn't think so. Nor shall we.
Click to expand...
I see your point!

Kd
 
qbilder said:
I can see that point. And for that point above many others, it's a good idea to have some tact & mutual respect. Sometimes it's not so easy to have either, especially with a guy who constantly insists on chiming in, even when he really has nothing of value to add. Rather, he seemingly makes something up as if to make people think he's more knowledgeable on the subject than he really is. It's he who should have some tact, so as to not get shown up in front of his customers.

You are a quite the accomplished player, are you not? Let's assume, for hypothetical purpose, that jumping is something you are especially talented with because you have spent eons practicing, studying, perfecting the technique. You're on a forum discussing that very topic with other players who are as knowledgeable as yourself on the topic of jumping, and somebody chimes in to your conversation giving advice & talking shop as if he's one of you, but the information is totally bogus. What do you do? Do you exclaim that his info is false, and hope he hushes? Then what if he begins becoming defensive, offensive, then just outright nasty? Worse yet, he's not only ruining a great & rare conversation you are having with so many actual peers, but there are up-n-comers listening in who are eager to learn something. Worse yet again, you have fans peeking in to hear the real pros discussing the game we all love. Now imagine that this same guy does the same thing over & over, constantly. Are you going to sit idly by & allow this poser to contaminate the information being discussed? I wouldn't think so. Nor shall we.
Click to expand...

Eric

I agree.

I think what happens is this.

One guy stands up and tells the world, this is how I do it.
Another guy stands up and tells the world how he does it, and it's different than the first guy.

The first guy, instead of saying cool, I hadn't though of doing it that way, goes off on a glorified sales pitch trying to convince the second guy, and the world, that his way is the only right way to do it.

And then it's on.

What I think should happen is that each guy should be able to tell the world how he does it, and also be able to listen to the others do the same. No one has to change how they do things if they don't want to. No one has to convince the world that their method is best, nor should they try. All guys should state what they do, and why. And all guys should be able to ask questions of each other.

This all works when you have a group of men who are comfortable with their abilities. When you get someone who is defensive, it all goes to s**t!

That's when we should all walk away. No one is going to convince the self conscious guy that he might want to rethink what he's doing, and the world needs to be able to weigh it all out and decide for themselves. It's a sneaky trap that I've fallen into, but not again. I'll tell my side and let the chips fall where they may. After all, what better way for an up and coming cuemaker to learn than by getting off the beaten path and have to find his way back after realizing he's made a mistake.

Royce
 
qbilder said:
[...] Anybody ever see me chiming in on CNC topics to tout my expertise? Nope. Reason being very simply because I don't know jack sh!t compared to the guys who really do know, so I read carefully (overhear) & make mental or physical notes when something new to me is revealed. I dare speak a word, only listen, and LEARN. [...]
Click to expand...

If you ever do decide to plunge into CNC - especially D.I.Y. - please let me know; I would be happy to help you privately in any way I can. The information and experience you put forth in your unsolicited posts on drying green wood I consider invaluable, and will be using in the near future to my own benefit. For that reason I would be more than happy to repay the favor if ever possible.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


If you ever do decide to plunge into CNC - especially D.I.Y. - please let me know; I would be happy to help you privately in any way I can. The information and experience you put forth in your unsolicited posts on drying green wood I consider invaluable, and will be using in the near future to my own benefit. For that reason I would be more than happy to repay the favor if ever possible.

TW
Click to expand...

I most genuinely appreciate such an offer, and might just take you up on it. I gota warn you, though, that I am computer illiterate. I have the ability and eagerness to learn, but it's going to be starting from scratch. Again, many thanks
 
qbilder said:
I most genuinely appreciate such an offer, and might just take you up on it. I gota warn you, though, that I am computer illiterate. I have the ability and eagerness to learn, but it's going to be starting from scratch. Again, many thanks
Click to expand...

You will do just fine. If it wasn't for pool and porn, I wouldn't know were the on switch to a computer could be found. Just takes a few,many helping hands to get started.

Larry
 
63Kcode said:
You will do just fine. If it wasn't for pool and porn, I wouldn't know were the on switch to a computer could be found. Just takes a few,many helping hands to get started.

Larry
Click to expand...

Lucky for me, I know a few folks who I can nag for advice :lol:
 
Thomas Wayne said:
The information and experience you put forth in your unsolicited posts on drying green wood I consider invaluable, and will be using in the near future to my own benefit.
TW
Click to expand...

I have a keen interest in this subject and very little knowledge. Might you point me to these posts/threads?

Thanks,

JC
 
qbilder said:
I most genuinely appreciate such an offer, and might just take you up on it. I gota warn you, though, that I am computer illiterate. I have the ability and eagerness to learn, but it's going to be starting from scratch. Again, many thanks
Click to expand...

I consult for a guy who is in the tourist souvenir manufacturing business. When I met him in 2007 he was on the verge of losing his house and business because he specialized in very ornate hand carvings, and the market for them had all but evaporated. He was a little over $40,000 behind on his mortgage (!) at the time.

By complete happenstance he had traded one of his carvings for a homemade CNC rig that a friend of mine built (without any input from me) onto a very large, very old overhead pin router. This guy had no idea if it worked (it didn't), how to get it working, or how it could help his business. Our mutual friend gave him my number when they made the trade.

After I looked the machine over and told him what we would need to do to make it functional, he showed me his big carvings (that weren't selling much anymore). He also showed me a bunch of different small, netsuke-like carvings that he made now and again - kind of "on the side". And he had some knives he'd made, and some interesting bracelets, and some little carved pendants, and some other trinkets as well. Told me all the small stuff sold out every time he did a show - wholesale AND retail. "Not much money in the small stuff", he told me.

I thought about his situation for a few days and came back to him with a proposal to entirely change his business. We cut back the big carvings to almost zero, and focused on how to crank out the small stuff as quickly and efficiently as possible. Central to the plan was to rebuild the homemade CNC machine and use it to rough out every single piece we could - handle scales for knives, whale-tail shapes for pendants, bevel-edged blocks for bracelets, etc.

That was a little over 7years ago. Today there are 4 CNC machines in his shop that often run all day long. I built 3 of them, and we have 3 more planned. It took him almost 3 years to get caught up on his mortgage plus the extra tens of thousands of dollars in bank "fees". Last fiscal year he did slightly over $800,000 gross, his highest year ever. Our goal for fiscal 2015 is a cool $1m. Several of his competitors have gone under, and most of the remaining few buy various parts and pieces from him.

Currently he's 71 years old, He did not finish the 8th grade, and even today is almost computer illiterate. He can use email - sort of - although he does not know how to attach a file when necessary... But he IS smart, and mechanically inclined (his father held over 40 perfected patents), and - most importantly - he's motivated. Fighting your way out from under crushing debt to become financially comfortable has way of keeping one focused on how not to ever go back again.

SO if HE can learn to use CNC for his business I believe anyone can. Absolutely. You just need one thing above all else, and that - as my father used to say - is a "want to". You gotta have a want to.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


" Fighting your way out from under crushing debt to become financially comfortable has way of keeping one focused on how not to ever go back again."


TW
Click to expand...

Im doing that right now, im almost "flush" and I learned....I should have stayed a bachelor! Being hungry and broke as a joke, you quickly find out how motivated you are to not stay that way.
 
Thomas Wayne said:


I consult for a guy who is in the tourist souvenir manufacturing business. When I met him in 2007 he was on the verge of losing his house and business because he specialized in very ornate hand carvings, and the market for them had all but evaporated. He was a little over $40,000 behind on his mortgage (!) at the time.

By complete happenstance he had traded one of his carvings for a homemade CNC rig that a friend of mine built (without any input from me) onto a very large, very old overhead pin router. This guy had no idea if it worked (it didn't), how to get it working, or how it could help his business. Our mutual friend gave him my number when they made the trade.

After I looked the machine over and told him what we would need to do to make it functional, he showed me his big carvings (that weren't selling much anymore). He also showed me a bunch of different small, netsuke-like carvings that he made now and again - kind of "on the side". And he had some knives he'd made, and some interesting bracelets, and some little carved pendants, and some other trinkets as well. Told me all the small stuff sold out every time he did a show - wholesale AND retail. "Not much money in the small stuff", he told me.

I thought about his situation for a few days and came back to him with a proposal to entirely change his business. We cut back the big carvings to almost zero, and focused on how to crank out the small stuff as quickly and efficiently as possible. Central to the plan was to rebuild the homemade CNC machine and use it to rough out every single piece we could - handle scales for knives, whale-tail shapes for pendants, bevel-edged blocks for bracelets, etc.

That was a little over 7years ago. Today there are 4 CNC machines in his shop that often run all day long. I built 3 of them, and we have 3 more planned. It took him almost 3 years to get caught up on his mortgage plus the extra tens of thousands of dollars in bank "fees". Last fiscal year he did slightly over $800,000 gross, his highest year ever. Our goal for fiscal 2015 is a cool $1m. Several of his competitors have gone under, and most of the remaining few buy various parts and pieces from him.

Currently he's 71 years old, He did not finish the 8th grade, and even today is almost computer illiterate. He can use email - sort of - although he does not know how to attach a file when necessary... But he IS smart, and mechanically inclined (his father held over 40 perfected patents), and - most importantly - he's motivated. Fighting your way out from under crushing debt to become financially comfortable has way of keeping one focused on how not to ever go back again.

SO if HE can learn to use CNC for his business I believe anyone can. Absolutely. You just need one thing above all else, and that - as my father used to say - is a "want to". You gotta have a want to.

TW
Click to expand...

I'm not scared
 
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