Fear of Feel

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, I didn't try to show how any single "visual" might look, just where the lines are in relation to each other so you could get a sense of how they might work together. Since the CTE line is part of every visual, I chose that one as the "line of sight".

Notice my comment about how the aimpoint lines change with the distance between CB and OB - especially when they're close together the lines change a lot with any change in distance.

pj
chgo
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Yes, when the balls are close and you line up sighting cte then, in the same position, you try to sight etC it will be way off. No cte user has given me an objective way to "see" the objective visuals so in messing around with cte I just came up with my own way to sight the shot. At first I used the method I spoke of above but with some distances it was just weird so a better way for me to get the same effect was for me to mentally shade the area between cte and etC and then line up in line with the center of the shaded area and then drop in from there with a pivot. Still a lot of sub involved in the pivot but it works.


Thats as close as I can figure?!
 
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Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, good catch.

I'm actually a fingerstyle acoustic player, and only have a passing knowledge of scales. I was just speaking generically to make my point about how people can learn to play without having to think about it.

I take it you play well enough to see that mistake straight out. I wonder how many pool players also play a musical instrument well. Seems to me they both tap into similar parts of the mind.
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Hmm, I've given this passing thought. I'm entirely and quite uniquely poor at music and art, yet passable at hand/eye stuff, with the noticeable exception of darts, which I'm astonishingly bad at.

Hope this helps.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, good catch.

I'm actually a fingerstyle acoustic player, and only have a passing knowledge of scales. I was just speaking generically to make my point about how people can learn to play without having to think about it.

I take it you play well enough to see that mistake straight out. I wonder how many pool players also play a musical instrument well. Seems to me they both tap into similar parts of the mind.
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No big deal about the mistake. I'm sure I've made at least one in my life :)


I don't play as much anymore, but I did take 2 years of lessons from this guy, and got pretty good when I was playing every day.
 
Ron Swanson said:
Hmm, I've given this passing thought. I'm entirely and quite uniquely poor at music and art, yet passable at hand/eye stuff, with the noticeable exception of darts, which I'm astonishingly bad at.

Hope this helps.
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I was thinking more of the mental aspects of the game, specifically, the ability to play more from the right side of the brain, which is the less analytical and more intuitive side (as It is currently hypothesized by most psychologists).

I'm a crappy artist myself, but a very good guitarist... at what I do. I'm a one-trick pony who had to struggle for years to achieve any competence. Stick me in a band in front of a crowd with some truly good jazz musicians and I will be hopelessly lost within thirty seconds. Which brings up a story that I feel correlates with the "feel" aspects of pool, and the whole left-brain/right/brain debate.

About 25 years ago when I had my repair shop in Saratoga Springs, a stranger came in, grabbed a guitar off the wall, and proceeded to blow my mind with some of the most technically incredible playing I had ever seen. I stopped working just to sit and listen to him "practice in public". The guy was phenomenal!

I got to talking with him and found out he was a recent grad of Berklee College of Music in Boston, a top school for aspiring jazz artists (Al DiMeola, Pat Metheny, John Abercrombie, Donald Fagen and many more famous alumni). The guy was new in town and wanted to know if there was any good jazz places where he could go and sit in.

I just happened to have a very good friend who was part of a very tight and progressive rhythm section. These cats had a Wednesday night jam session going after dining hours at the local Mexican restaurant, and invited visiting soloists to sit in with them and jam. I sent the guy over there and waited to hear from my friend Yenin (the upright bass player) next time I saw him.

Well, later in the week, Yenin comes in and the conversation went something like this:

In his thick Puerto Rican accent he asked me, "Hey, mon, what you do sending dat guy over to play with us without asking first?"

I was a bit taken aback. "Well, the guy came in here and he was just tearing up the fingerboard, getting way out there. He just graduated from Berklee. I thought you'd be glad I sent him over."

Yenin smiled out the corner of his mouth and said, "I don care where he graduate from. Dat guy can't play for chit." Then he went on, "Oh, he got some chops, but he couldn't follow us at all. And we take it EASY on him, mon. Then Scott came in with his sax and we got tired of his chit and we just lost him. He had to take his fancy guitar and leave. I feel bad, but he just embarrass us in front of everybody. Next time, ask first"

The pool analogy here is blatantly obvious to me, but if not, hell, it's a lot more pertinent to a thread on "feel" than all this aiming BS that got dragged into a potentially good discussion.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
The pool analogy here is blatantly obvious to me, but if not, hell, it's a lot more pertinent to a thread on "feel" than all this aiming BS that got dragged into a potentially good discussion.
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When it comes to feel I have a music related story. I also played some guitar at a time and drums and bass but never well except for drums which I did ok.

I made a friend way back in my youth working at Wendys and we mostly drank and had laughs but this guy was kinda weird eccentric and I found out this guy had a Ibanez double neck electric guitar and he told stories of playing in New York where he came from to wit I kind of said yeah right.

A year or so later I was living in a upstairs of a house that was rented by a bunch of band member and I would typically sit in for the drummer when they practiced and he wasnt around. So one evening I heard from my friend and Im not sure how it happened he ended up over at the house with the Ibanez and some sheet music. He kept looking at the music finding the notes on the neck going plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk and he has been doing so for about 30 minutes cause he didnt know any of the songs those guys knew and didnt want to play Southern Rock but he liked the Stones.

So he looks up and says you guys want to try some Brown Sugar? and they reluctanly said yes....

What this guy did on that guitar after not playing for a long time was simply amazing. As it turns out my friend Joe was really a sort of Idiot Savant when it came to musical talent and had he not had some substance abuse issues I think he would have made a great musician. It was unreal what he did to Brown Sugar and really he was so far up in class from those guys and it all came from so far inside him that when he played it was like the guitar was playing him. I will probably never forget that as long as I live and I doubt I will ever see anything like it in person again.

Now that is some feel from some unearthly grant of talent.
 
BeiberLvr said:
No big deal about the mistake. I'm sure I've made at least one in my life :)


I don't play as much anymore, but I did take 2 years of lessons from this guy, and got pretty good when I was playing every day.
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Wow, Jon! Why haven't I ever heard of this guy? That is some of the most beautiful playing I've heard in a while. What a fantastic band! Powerful shades of Santana there. I'm sure Carlos was an influence, but this guy is a monster and has his own thing going on. You are so lucky to have worked with him.

I don't play much myself anymore. Crippling carpal tunnel from all the work with my hands for the last 40 years put an end to anything longer than 10 minutes, and that spent in pain. In the last three weeks, though, I have been on a very low-carb diet because of my recent diabetes diagnosis. This has already made some amazing changes in my body that I attribute to a lowered inflammatory state.

The biggest change has been in my hands, which are already feeling stronger than they have in years. The other night I grabbed a guitar and was able to play for over half an hour without pain or numbness setting in. Well, pain in my fingertips because my callouses are gone, and pain in my ears because I'm pretty damn rusty. If things continue as they are going, I may start to play again. I truly miss it.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Wow, Jon! Why haven't I ever heard of this guy? That is some of the most beautiful playing I've heard in a while. What a fantastic band! Powerful shades of Santana there. I'm sure Carlos was an influence, but this guy is a monster and has his own thing going on. You are so lucky to have worked with him.

I don't play much myself anymore. Crippling carpal tunnel from all the work with my hands for the last 40 years put an end to anything longer than 10 minutes, and that spent in pain. In the last three weeks, though, I have been on a very low-carb diet because of my recent diabetes diagnosis. This has already made some amazing changes in my body that I attribute to a lowered inflammatory state.

The biggest change has been in my hands, which are already feeling stronger than they have in years. The other night I grabbed a guitar and was able to play for over half an hour without pain or numbness setting in. Well, pain in my fingertips because my callouses are gone, and pain in my ears because I'm pretty damn rusty. If things continue as they are going, I may start to play again. I truly miss it.
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If I remember correctly his biggest influences were Santana and Eddie Van Halen.
 
336Robin said:
it all came from so far inside him that when he played it was like the guitar was playing him. I will probably never forget that as long as I live and I doubt I will ever see anything like it in person again.
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I've been around some amazing musicians. One thing I see in common with most of them is that when they get deep into the zone, they don't make many mistakes. If they do, you certainly never notice them.

I know from my own playing what this is like. When I was deep into it my fingers just fell on the frets by themselves, yes, just like the guitar was playing me. I may have looked like I was in a trance, but inside I felt energized and alive, and hyper-aware of everything that I was doing, only from an observer's viewpoint, not a doer's. I would watch myself play the most intricate things like I was watching somebody else do them. I used to joke with my friends that it was like putting a quarter in the jukebox and listening to what came out.

A great guitarist friend of mine used to talk about playing what he called "Polish red notes" (as opposed to blues notes, and yes, he was Polish). These notes just hang in the air like a nasty fart, sound bad to anybody listening, and they are impossible to recover from in a tasteful way.

When I would get deep into the zone, I virtually never played a bad note like that. Sure, there might be a finger misplaced every now and then, but I was instantly able to turn that mistake into something else that was musically correct, and very often, much better. Nobody but the very best musicians ever suspected I made a mistake. I think what separated me from the really good musicians was that, unlike myself, they could get to that place all the time.

I suspect pool feels like that to the best players when they are in dead stroke. All those hours of practice, and drills, and whatever fall away, and they go into a space where the game is playing them rather than the other way around. When they are playing like this, they just don't make mistakes. Even the rare miss usually turns out to be a "lucky roll", and leaves their opponent hooked, or with a next to impossible shot to make. This is where the potential the beauty of pool lies for me. Winning itself is just an artifact that gives evidence you were there.
 
BeiberLvr said:
If I remember correctly his biggest influences were Santana and Eddie Van Halen.
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Well, you could pick a lot worse to have as influences than those two. I've been listening to a few more YT vids of him this morning. Very tasty stuff. Glad you mentioned him. :)
 
I used to play a mean polka on the accordion. Haven't touched it in 30 years.

Talk about feel, 120 buttons for your left hand that you cannot see.

Play
A
Million
Scales


Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, good catch.

I'm actually a fingerstyle acoustic player, and only have a passing knowledge of scales. I was just speaking generically to make my point about how people can learn to play without having to think about it.

I take it you play well enough to see that mistake straight out. I wonder how many pool players also play a musical instrument well. Seems to me they both tap into similar parts of the mind.
Click to expand...
 
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(((Satori))) said:
Yes, when the balls are close and you line up sighting cte then, in the same position, you try to sight etC it will be way off. No cte user has given me an objective way to "see" the objective visuals so in messing around with cte I just came up with my own way to sight the shot. At first I used the method I spoke of above but with some distances it was just weird so a better way for me to get the same effect was for me to mentally shade the area between cte and etC and then line up in line with the center of the shaded area and then drop in from there with a pivot. Still a lot of sub involved in the pivot but it works.


Thats as close as I can figure?!
Click to expand...

Is anybody else able to get great results using this ty pe of visuals?

I am pretty amazed with the results I have seen as of late.
 
Can you FEEL like you're capable of making every shot?...maybe you should!!!

cfrandy said:
It wasn't long after watching the movie, "The Legend of Bagger Vance", that I went from a D-golfer to an A-golfer in our men's golf association. There was something in that movie that Will Smith said that made all the difference in the world! He said, "everyone has a swing in them, you simply have to find it".
If he had said, "you must swing like Ben Hogan or Moe Norman" it would have meant nothing to me! So, instead of trying to swing like someone else...I tried to hone the skills I already possessed. It worked!
Most of the people here in this thread already possess the fundamental skills to pocket balls. They do not need to learn to pocket balls like Efren Reyes to become better players...they need only hone the skills they already possess. Someone said in this thread of CTE that he would add it to his "toolbox". Knowing 12 ways to pocket balls does NOT perfect your shot making ability. Our conscious mind cannot multitask efficiently. Learning ONE way to pocket balls perfectly will perfect your shot making ability!

BTW, THIS is the beauty of CJ Wiley's TOI. By limiting your targets to just two, center ball and the edge of the ball, you will be able to hone the skill much faster. The less choices you have to make, the easier it is to make the RIGHT choice! Sorry if you did not want to hear that, but it is a fact!
I'm not saying, you could ever rise to the level of play that CJ has experienced, you are NOT motivated to do so. What I am saying is, you have the opportunity to learn from someone that has achieved the highest level. What you do with what you've learned depends on what motivates YOU!
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Yes, anyone can create the angle they need from these two ALIGNMENT points, remember, there's 4 angles off each one, so there's 8 total angles, one being straight in, and another as thin as you can cut the object ball.

'THE TOUCH OF INSIDE' will help create those angles naturally, if someone is willing to practice their instinctual development. When this has been practiced enough the player's mind will automatically create the desired angle....without any conscious thought or effort. This is the beauty of the highest levels of pool, it's like playing a musical instrument, the music plays through you, not the other way around.

Our subconscious minds are so incredible that using this system will free the player to tap into their full potential. Also, they can utilize the true "secret" of great shot-making, which is touch and a "feel" for the pocket.

The reason few of the champion players can describe how they aim is because they do it instinctively......although they still need to use the center or edge for a reference point.....and it's always best to visually use the CENTER of the cue ball (for a reference point) to develop the maximum touch and feel necessary to control and manage your game. This is vital to position play and cue ball placement, when utilized properly.

'The Game is the Teacher'
if-you-want-to-feel-rich.jpg
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I was thinking more of the mental aspects of the game, specifically, the ability to play more from the right side of the brain, which is the less analytical and more intuitive side (as It is currently hypothesized by most psychologists).

I'm a crappy artist myself, but a very good guitarist... at what I do. I'm a one-trick pony who had to struggle for years to achieve any competence. Stick me in a band in front of a crowd with some truly good jazz musicians and I will be hopelessly lost within thirty seconds. Which brings up a story that I feel correlates with the "feel" aspects of pool, and the whole left-brain/right/brain debate.

About 25 years ago when I had my repair shop in Saratoga Springs, a stranger came in, grabbed a guitar off the wall, and proceeded to blow my mind with some of the most technically incredible playing I had ever seen. I stopped working just to sit and listen to him "practice in public". The guy was phenomenal!

I got to talking with him and found out he was a recent grad of Berklee College of Music in Boston, a top school for aspiring jazz artists (Al DiMeola, Pat Metheny, John Abercrombie, Donald Fagen and many more famous alumni). The guy was new in town and wanted to know if there was any good jazz places where he could go and sit in.

I just happened to have a very good friend who was part of a very tight and progressive rhythm section. These cats had a Wednesday night jam session going after dining hours at the local Mexican restaurant, and invited visiting soloists to sit in with them and jam. I sent the guy over there and waited to hear from my friend Yenin (the upright bass player) next time I saw him.

Well, later in the week, Yenin comes in and the conversation went something like this:

In his thick Puerto Rican accent he asked me, "Hey, mon, what you do sending dat guy over to play with us without asking first?"

I was a bit taken aback. "Well, the guy came in here and he was just tearing up the fingerboard, getting way out there. He just graduated from Berklee. I thought you'd be glad I sent him over."

Yenin smiled out the corner of his mouth and said, "I don care where he graduate from. Dat guy can't play for chit." Then he went on, "Oh, he got some chops, but he couldn't follow us at all. And we take it EASY on him, mon. Then Scott came in with his sax and we got tired of his chit and we just lost him. He had to take his fancy guitar and leave. I feel bad, but he just embarrass us in front of everybody. Next time, ask first"

The pool analogy here is blatantly obvious to me, but if not, hell, it's a lot more pertinent to a thread on "feel" than all this aiming BS that got dragged into a potentially good discussion.
Click to expand...

Nice story about feel.

It would be like having Sheriff John police Compton and Watts or East Los.:eek:

It takes time to learn how to ride a bike with no hands, but when you do, it comes naturally even around corners.

Be well.
 
8pack said:
Not sure its the same. I would say there's a little thinking involved during the aiming process but not so much for walking.
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Why do you need to think to aim? If the shot you need to make is a shot you have made a hundred times before, what is there to think about? Missing?
 
cfrandy said:
Why do you need to think to aim? If the shot you need to make is a shot you have made a hundred times before, what is there to think about? Missing?
Click to expand...

Sssshhhhhh, the MASTER speaking....... Listen to him. You have a lot to learn from this guy..........
 
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