Low Deflection Shafts?

[Bambu]

Everybody knocks them, yet none offer good reason as to why. The only argument that makes any sense at all, is the feel factor. And I have to agree. As much as I like my z-2 predator, the feel is shitty as compared to maple. But I care more about results than feel. The sound is also a little dead with my z-2, I got used to that too. But almost every other L/D I have tried feels and sounds like a regular cue, or at least very close to normal. (That includes OB 1 and 2, Tiger, jacoby and pechauer L/D.)

If it was really true that it didn't matter how much a shaft deflected, you would see more players that prefer and purposefully use, high squirt shafts just because they like them. Instead, you see quite the opposite. No such thing as a shaft created and marketed to be high squirt, and cue makers like predator even making L/D for direct competitors like schon.

 

[dr_dave]

If it was really true that it didn't matter how much a shaft deflected, you would see more players that prefer and purposefully use, high squirt shafts just because they like them. Instead, you see quite the opposite.

That's because LD shaft offer several real advantages (although, they do have disadvantages for some people).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Matt]

All other things being equal, a shaft with a lower end mass will produce less squirt than one with a higher end mass, both in theory and in practice. I doubt you will find anyone in either camp that will argue otherwise.

The contention about these shafts is over whether less squirt will really help your game and whether it is worth it. The analysis of the advantages and disadvantages on Dr. Dave's website is quite comprehensive, so I suggest you read through that material and decide for yourself. In my case, I have played for years with an "LD" shaft, pretty much always play with my own cue, and play enough that I didn't mind paying a premium to have the shaft that plays and feels best for me (Mezz WD700, which is a solid maple shaft that has been drilled out near the tip to reduce mass).

 

[Bambu]

That's because LD shaft offer several real advantages (although, they do have disadvantages for some people).

Regards,
Dave

You actually listed expensive as a disadvantage? C'mon now Dave. Also not fair to mention shaft diameter as an L/D disadvantage. Harder to masse? I suppose its "harder" but its not as if you cant masse with an L/D.

Harder to jump, for sure. But is that really a disadvantage when we have break cues and jump cues to turn to? Fair enough to list it, but as we all know.....even purists like Earl use a jump cue.

If anything, there are times you want more deflection to get around a blocking ball using english. It doesn't happen often, but I would have to consider that a drawback. Other than that, I see no other disadvantages aside from the loss of feedback...but that's only with a z-2.

I just cant believe so many people are opposed to L/D, as if to say it doesn't matter how much a cue deflects. Don't we wash our balls to reduce throw? I know I do.

 

[whammo57]

Ld shafts is all about marketing. Sales sales sales. Not enough difference make a difference!

what he said

Kim

 

[9Ballr]

Liking my OB Classic + ,LD with the feel of A maple shaft.

I have that exact same shaft.
Came with a cue I just bought, radial joined.
The feeling is nowhere near a well made solid maple shaft.

Not even close.....at least not this radial jointed shaft isn't.

 

[RBC]

AZsportpilot

As you can see, there are lots of thoughts and opinions about LD (really means low cue ball squirt) cue shafts.

Some will say that it's all hype and marketing. Well, low squirt is real and is definitely not hype. It's certainly not fraud, as someone who is obviously not informed said. Of course, we do advertise and market our products. Just like Coca Cola, Chevrolet, etc. If you're not sure about what the difference is or if you just want a good demonstration of it, go to one of the larger events and try one out. The Super Billiards Expo is coming up in a week or so, and you can try several there.

Some will say that all shafts have some deflection, so you have to adjust with any of them. Well, this is definitely true. LD shafts are exactly that "Low" deflection, not "No" deflection. So, the real question is whether or not reducing the cue ball squirt (deflection) makes a difference. For that answer, I'll recall a conversation over dinner several years back. We had 2 top level well known pro players at the table, One was a European player, and was talking about how tough it was to make a living as a pro player. My business partner, Don Owen, asked him why was it so tough as compared to a few years before. His replay was LD shafts. According to him, prior to the popularity of LD shafts, he could travel the world to play in tournaments and was pretty much always going to finish high enough to make a little money. When LD shafts became popular, the players that were previously fairly easy to beat were now tough.

Some will tell you that LD shafts don't have any feel. Well, I think some things have changed. At OB, we offer 2 distinct styles of feel. We found that not everyone likes the same thing. Our newer Classic+ and Pro+ have been designed specifically to provide a traditional sound and feel when you strike the cue ball, but to also have the benefits of LD.

I will say this as well. Not all LD shafts are the same. I've seen shafts sold as LD that really weren't much different than a normal shaft with a slightly shorter ferrule. For that reason, when we launched our new + line of shafts, we shifted our marketing. Instead of talking about LD, we talk about our reduction of "Tip End Mass". We actually reduced our TEM by over 13% in each of our shaft models. I think you'll see more advertisement in this direction in the future. TEM can more easily be calculated than actual cue ball squirt which can be easily skewed in testing.

So, in the end, you just need to try different things until you find what you like.

I hope I've provided some insight that might clear things up and not the other way around.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[9Ballr]

All other things being equal, a shaft with a lower end mass will produce less squirt than one with a higher end mass, both in theory and in practice.

Couldn't agree more.

However no shaft is zero deflection.
And since you have to compensate anyway on an LD shaft I prefer to just use a solid maple shaft and get ALL the feel out of my cue that the maker intended, and to not numb it up.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Harder to jump, for sure.

For sure. Has anybody figured out why? Low end mass, I guess, but why?

...there are times you want more deflection to get around a blocking ball using english.

I don't - it's simple to change the aim slightly, like any other side spin shot.

pj
chgo

 

[HawaiianEye]

AZsportpilot

As you can see, there are lots of thoughts and opinions about LD (really means low cue ball squirt) cue shafts.

Some will say that it's all hype and marketing. Well, low squirt is real and is definitely not hype. It's certainly not fraud, as someone who is obviously not informed said. Of course, we do advertise and market our products. Just like Coca Cola, Chevrolet, etc. If you're not sure about what the difference is or if you just want a good demonstration of it, go to one of the larger events and try one out. The Super Billiards Expo is coming up in a week or so, and you can try several there.

Some will say that all shafts have some deflection, so you have to adjust with any of them. Well, this is definitely true. LD shafts are exactly that "Low" deflection, not "No" deflection. So, the real question is whether or not reducing the cue ball squirt (deflection) makes a difference. For that answer, I'll recall a conversation over dinner several years back. We had 2 top level well known pro players at the table, One was a European player, and was talking about how tough it was to make a living as a pro player. My business partner, Don Owen, asked him why was it so tough as compared to a few years before. His replay was LD shafts. According to him, prior to the popularity of LD shafts, he could travel the world to play in tournaments and was pretty much always going to finish high enough to make a little money. When LD shafts became popular, the players that were previously fairly easy to beat were now tough.

Some will tell you that LD shafts don't have any feel. Well, I think some things have changed. At OB, we offer 2 distinct styles of feel. We found that not everyone likes the same thing. Our newer Classic+ and Pro+ have been designed specifically to provide a traditional sound and feel when you strike the cue ball, but to also have the benefits of LD.

I will say this as well. Not all LD shafts are the same. I've seen shafts sold as LD that really weren't much different than a normal shaft with a slightly shorter ferrule. For that reason, when we launched our new + line of shafts, we shifted our marketing. Instead of talking about LD, we talk about our reduction of "Tip End Mass". We actually reduced our TEM by over 13% in each of our shaft models. I think you'll see more advertisement in this direction in the future. TEM can more easily be calculated than actual cue ball squirt which can be easily skewed in testing.

So, in the end, you just need to try different things until you find what you like.

I hope I've provided some insight that might clear things up and not the other way around.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Thank you for all your information, but you left out the "ONLY" thing that would interest me if I were inquiring about one of your (or anybody's) LD shafts.

Since you already said "Not all LD shafts are the same", including yours, then there should be some sort of "tolerance" standard each shaft must meet prior to being sold.

Do you test "EACH" shaft for its LD qualities and reject it if it doesn't meet some sort of standard.

Isn't there some sort of machine that could test the shaft as it propels the cue ball the length of the table and you could label the shaft as "deflection less than 1/2 inch at 9 feet" or something of the sort?

If you tell me a shaft deflects 50% less than a normal shaft and then tell me there is no such thing as a "normal" shaft because they all hit "differently" then there needs to be a reference point so that there can be a standard.

You maybe already do this, but I have not seen it advertised if you do.

Aloha.

 

[tjshaw02]

There is NO correct answer. You will have people swear by what they like best.

I have two supposedly LD shafts (Predator 314-2 FAT and a Meucci PRO) and several "regular" maple shafts of various makes.

I like "feel" in a shaft and the "hollow-ended" shafts seem to lose a bit of feel. The Meucci PRO shaft is solid maple and has way more "feel".

As long as you know your cue's deflection range and how it affects your play and are able to compensate, there is no difference between it and a cue that has more LD characteristics.

I agree completely, I use a Katana LD shaft and love it. Plus I saved a few bucks.

 

[hang-the-9]

Ld shafts is all about marketing. Sales sales sales. Not enough difference make a difference!

Do you mean between LD shaft brands? There are quite a few different ones that do have a noticeable difference. Hit feel, how much they deflect, even between LD brands are pretty different. There may be 2-3 that are close to the same, but between a Predator, OB, Players PureX and a few custom makers LD shafts all had a different hit feel and deflection when I played with them. Not it may be that the OB2 has a similar deflection amount than a Predator 2, but it will not be like the Z or Z2 or like the Players. And the OB1 will hit and play differently than the OB2, and so on.

 

[dr_dave]

That's because LD shaft offer several real advantages (although, they do have disadvantages for some people).

... Harder to jump, for sure ...

For sure. Has anybody figured out why? Low end mass, I guess, but why?

I've always wondered about this myself too, but I don't have a definitive answer. I will be curious to hear if people have reasonable and plausible theories concerning this. It might be related to the efficiency of the tip and shaft end. If the CB is not separating from the tip enough during the bounce and gets jammed (or double hit) slightly. This doesn't happen with a phenolic-tip jump cue ... the CB clears away fine (unless the tip contact point is too high on the CB for the given angle).

Maybe somebody out there with access to a high-quality high-speed video camera can compare the action of a Z-2 and a good phenoic-tip jump cue so we can see if there are any obvious effects going on.

Regards,
Dave

 

[RBC]

Thank you for all your information, but you left out the "ONLY" thing that would interest me if I were inquiring about one of your (or anybody's) LD shafts.

Since you already said "Not all LD shafts are the same", including yours, then there should be some sort of "tolerance" standard each shaft must meet prior to being sold.

Do you test "EACH" shaft for its LD qualities and reject it if it doesn't meet some sort of standard.

Isn't there some sort of machine that could test the shaft as it propels the cue ball the length of the table and you could label the shaft as "deflection less than 1/2 inch at 9 feet" or something of the sort?

If you tell me a shaft deflects 50% less than a normal shaft and then tell me there is no such thing as a "normal" shaft because they all hit "differently" then there needs to be a reference point so that there can be a standard.

You maybe already do this, but I have not seen it advertised if you do.

Aloha.

HawaiianEye

Thanks for the reply!

I think I know what you're looking for, but it might not be quite what you think.

Over the years I've seen many machine test results for deflection. Unfortunately, some of them are simply not accurate. Maybe that's by accident, ignorance, or maybe it was on purpose. But none the less, because of those previous machines and testing, those types of results are now always questionable. I've even seen machines that presumably show negative cue ball squirt! (obviously not possible)

We've always wanted a quantifiable method to show the benefits of our construction and design. Over and above just trying it out, we've wanted something that's tangible and verifiable. It's become understood that effective Tip End Mass is the overall primary contributor to cue ball squirt. True Tip End Mass is also the main thing that we can control through design engineering and construction methods. The cool part is that it's also very easy to calculate.

So, when we launched our new + line of shafts, we focused our marketing on the reduction of Tip End Mass. This really is the only quantifiable way to let you, the consumer, have something to compare that cannot be falsified or manipulated. We reduced the TEM of our cue shafts by over 13% across our model line. Our previous models were considered by many to be as low or lower in deflection than our competition, so the new + line is even lower. We hope to, as time permits, further expand on the actual factual number comparisons.

http://www.obcues.com/categories/OB-Plus-Shafts/

So, no robots or videos of machine hitting balls. But something more informative and definitely more quantifiable.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Bambu]

For sure. Has anybody figured out why? Low end mass, I guess, but why?


I don't - it's simple to change the aim slightly, like any other side spin shot.

pj
chgo

Aside from the obvious mass change, I have no idea about the why on the jump shots. Its almost as if I want deflection on a jump shot, just not side to side. But then I guess, that's not deflection. Frontal deflection? No such thing.


On the aiming change, I can get more deflection using a combination of front hand and parallel English when I need to. But when I do, I still don't feel as if I'm getting as much as I would from older shafts I used to use.

 

[JoeyInCali]

LOW DEFLECTION shafts should really defined.
Low deflection shafts will have more cue ball squirt .
They should be renamed Low Cue Ball Deflection shafts .
Or might as well call them Reduced End Mass shafts .

Wet balls cause more throw ? Wouldn't wet balls be more slippery and thereby causing less throw ???

 

[dr_dave]

Over the years I've seen many machine test results for deflection. Unfortunately, some of them are simply not accurate. Maybe that's by accident, ignorance, or maybe it was on purpose. But none the less, because of those previous machines and testing, those types of results are now always questionable. I've even seen machines that presumably show negative cue ball squirt! (obviously not possible)

We've always wanted a quantifiable method to show the benefits of our construction and design.

FYI, lots of advice (and pitfalls to avoid) concerning how to get accurate and consistent results with both machine and human testing can be found here:

squirt robot test results resource page

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

It's become understood that effective Tip End Mass is the overall primary contributor to cue ball squirt. True Tip End Mass is also the main thing that we can control through design engineering and construction methods. The cool part is that it's also very easy to calculate.

True endmass is a very difficult thing to measure and quantify. Per Diagram 4 in my Feb'08 BD article, mass at different distances from the tip has radically different effects on "endmass," and the distance from the tip at which mass change has no effect varies with cue design and construction. The only reliable way to measure "endmass" and resulting cue ball deflection it is through careful squirt-angle testing.

Regards,
Dave

 

[jburkm002]

Set up a straight in shot. Object ball about 3 ft from the pocket and cue ball about 3ft from the object ball. Now aim dead center, using center sidespin. Try it with a maple shaft and LD shaft. See if there is a difference. I would also add, find the pivot point. Also try using BHE, FHE and PARALLEL. Here is where I get confused from what I have read. If I find the pivot point and use BHE and FHE properly. Doesn't that compensate for squirt. So basically it wouldn't matter what type of shaft I used. Maybe I misunderstand.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've always wondered about [why jumps are harder with LD shafts] myself too, but I don't have a definitive answer. I will be curious to hear if people have reasonable and plausible theories concerning this. It might be related to the efficiency of the tip and shaft end. If the CB is not separating from the tip enough during the bounce and gets jammed (or double hit) slightly. This doesn't happen with a phenolic-tip jump cue ... the CB clears away fine (unless the tip contact point is too high on the CB for the given angle).

Maybe somebody out there with access to a high-quality high-speed video camera can compare the action of a Z-2 and a good phenoic-tip jump cue so we can see if there are any obvious effects going on.

Regards,
Dave

This is a job for SuperDave!

pj
chgo