Pool's "Best Practices"

[Patrick Johnson]

IMO, to tell a beginner (or anyone for that matter) that the odds of hitting the exact vertical center line of a 2 1/4" sphere (or any sphere for that matter) with the exact center of what is approximately 3 millimeters of contact space on the end of a 56, 57, 58 inch or longer cue stick

are the same

as intentionally hitting to one side of that vertical center line

would be very misleading, regardless of whether or not they are naive.

1. Nobody needs to hit the "exact" vertical center of the CB.

2. You must hit as accurately offcenter as oncenter or your shot will be off in exactly the same way.

3. This has been explained many times - you clearly don't understand it, and shouldn't be trying to give advice about it.

pj
chgo

 

[Straightpool_99]

The idea of "Best Practices" is that there's a "standard" way to do some things that tends to give the best results,
Well, ok. But what exactly do you use to determine the so called "best results"?
and that we should only deviate from that way when there's a compelling reason.
This would need a lot of explaining and definitions in itself.
This doesn't mean there's only one right way for everybody - a person's psychology or physiology may make a non-standard way of doing something better for them.
If something does not come natural to a person, to what degree should you "force the issue"? Impossible to determine without some sort of trial and error, imho.
But non-standard ways are non-standard because they usually have some drawbacks, and it's important to recognize the drawbacks and weigh them against the advantages for you.
I know of no technique in cueing that does not have some sort of drawback.
A common example of this is the Best Practice called a "pendulum stroke". A "pendulum stroke" is considered a Best Practice for a few reasons:
1. it's the easiest way to ensure a straight and level stroke at contact
2. it's the easiest way to ensure correct stroke speed at contact
3. it's the easiest way to be consistent
I don't necessarily agree with any of these points. Are you saying it is easier for a beginner to do it relatively well, or for a pro to perform at the highest level, or both? Should you always select "the easiest way" if an alternative of somewhat higher difficulty potentially can give you better performance in the long run?

The important drawback for a non-standard stroke such as a "piston stroke" is that it's a more complex movement involving more body parts and so is inherently more difficult to control precisely. With lots of practice you can probably learn to control it pretty precisely, but not as easily (and maybe not as precisely either).
The movements of the human body can not always be easily simplified that way. The "fewer working parts is better philosphy" is IMHO a fallacy in pool. To me it is almost as stupid as to say that it is easier to draw with a pencil if the hand and wrists are completely motionless. The point is not to try to emulate a pendulum or a piston, but to utilize movements that are at least somewhat natural to the body in the most precise manner possible. Fighting against nature will be an uphill struggle.

Best Practices also teach important principles that non-standard practices don't - such as the importance of minimizing movement.
I don't believe this to be a good principle if applied uncritically. You should only apply it after extensive analysis of what joints, fingers etc whose movements you wish to minimize and why that is. Taking into account the bodys natural tendencies and also the potential to generate power etc.

For most players, and particularly for newer players, the pendulum stroke and other Best Practices are the best way to start even though they may not be how everybody ends up. "It's all personal preference" is usually bad advice and we do developing players a disservice with it.
I don't advocate a "personal preference standpoint" as much as I reject blanket statements of the following kind: "don't drop your elbow", that are simply asserted with explanations that are lacking in depth.
pj
chgo

I applaud your initiative, but as long as the "best principles" have not yet been established with any real certainty, I'd be very careful about trying to set up some kind of bible on pool fundamentals. A lot of professional pool players (most I'd say) have developed elbow drop and other non-standard techniques, in many cases independent of each other. You could say they are all wrong (and there is a chance you may be proven right) but I think maybe a better way to look at it is to ask why that happens and if there might be some hidden advantage to it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Where did I say that the different intended purposes meant hitting the ball in the same place?

So you're just saying hitting the ball in different places produces different results?

Thanks for that news flash.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Seems you are totally missing the whole point of TOI. Which is to have no spin after contact. To accomplish that, one must hit the cb very precisely, or there will be too much or too little spin on the cb. It's not simply a matter of just hitting to one side of the center line and calling it good. You have to be just as precise as when hitting center cb, or you are totally defeating the purpose of using it.

Also strange how YOU try and condemn others for "nitpicking words", when that is exactly what YOU have done with the pendulum stroke and CTE.

What is "the whole point" that you say I seem to be missing? (I'm glad you learned the meaning of the word seem. I hope you learned what the phrase "seems to" means too.)

You're the one that's missed it.

There is much more than just one point to TOI.

But as usual you misstate & distort for you intended purposes.

Clarification of words for the sake of truth & clarity is a far cry from what you & some others do.

May those Blessings come your way asap.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is simply common sense, and goes without saying out of respect for a mutual.....

Seems you are totally missing the whole point of TOI. Which is to have no spin after contact. To accomplish that, one must hit the cb very precisely, or there will be too much or too little spin on the cb. It's not simply a matter of just hitting to one side of the center line and calling it good. You have to be just as precise as when hitting center cb, or you are totally defeating the purpose of using it.

Also strange how YOU try and condemn others for "nitpicking words", when that is exactly what YOU have done with the pendulum stroke and CTE.

TOI is much more than just countering the after-contact spin. All shots have some spin, either side spin or forward/back spin. This is simply common sense, and goes without saying out of respect for a mutual intelligence level in all pool players.

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Tony_in_MD]

So will you be on Pat's side when he gets into another CTE/Pro One Debate?

No...

I did not say that at all & I would bet that you know that.

How often do you beat your wife?

Where did I say that the different intended purposes meant hitting the ball in the same place?

How can one use spin for the purposes that I stated & have the spin be canceled by the collision with the OB?

Would it be to throw a ball slightly with inside spin?

Would that be about, if not, the the only time, other then to cancel the outside spin that the CB would pick up from the collision to ever so slightly change how it comes off of the rail?

Would that not be one purpose or side effect of TOI?

Again, I'm not inclined to continue to play your games with words where you either intentionally create distortion.

That is not a genuine discussion or a logical debate.

That's just being disingenuous.

I think you & some others underestimate the intelligence of the general readership here on AZB.

Perhaps you even forget the presence of so many many that only read & never post.

I think that most, if not all, are quite capable of seeing through the crap tactics that you've been using & for what purposes you've been using them.

I'm thinking Pidge was quite right with his assessment of you since you've returned.

RJ
NO, La.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Can you make a striped ball come straight back to your tip from the head spot going up and back the length of the table with little to no wobble of the stripe?

IMO, to tell a beginner (or anyone for that matter) that the odds of hitting the exact vertical center line of a 2 1/4" sphere (or any sphere for that matter) with the exact center of what is approximately 3 millimeters of contact space on the end of a 56, 57, 58 inch or longer cue stick

are the same

as intentionally hitting to one side of that vertical center line

would be very misleading, regardless of whether or not they are naive.

Especially so, if all hits are to be taken into consideration over a time frame of several hours or nearly a complete day or two or a week, or a lifetime.

Perhaps that is why so many ultimately choose to use english for a percentage of shots as opposed to trying to consistently hit that infinitely small target with the center of that extremely small 3 mm implement without a miss.

Doing so makes the game so much 'easier' to play well.

And... the TOI method makes it even easier than using english for an extended time frame.

Now ALL please note.. I am not saying that the odds of hitting one's exact target increase by choosing to hit a side of the ball vs targeting that infinitely small exact center line.

I think most all of you will be able to figure out the difference.

Try hitting the exact center line of a golf ball with the exact center of a golf club head so that the ball goes straight.

Try hitting a tennis ball over the net but in front of the base line by hitting the horizontal center line of a tennis ball with the center line of a tennis racket.

I think you will find it much easier to choose hitting one side or the other with a method in mind much easier to do & you will get a much more consistent outcome.

Somehow we seem to find what is easiest & gets the best results in other aspects of our lives. I think we should do the same when it comes to playing pool.

To strive for perfection may certainly be considered honorable or something like that. But... to pursue what can never be had is a bit fool hearty when the best that one can attain may be right before them, at least it is to me.

Best to All,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I applaud your initiative, but as long as the "best principles" have not yet been established with any real certainty, I'd be very careful about trying to set up some kind of bible on pool fundamentals.

There are principles that are commonly accepted as "fundamental" to good play, mostly having to do with simplicity and ease of performance - so the "bible" is already largely written. My purpose is to counter the tendency to simply say "it's different for everybody" when asked for advice about how to play pool. We know more than you seem to acknowledge, and we should say so, especially to beginners.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

There are no "knuckle balls," the cue ball always has some rotation

This doesn't make sense. Maybe you meant to say it's impossible to perfectly execute a center ball hit (which comes closer to making sense)?

But the truth is it's not all that hard to hit a cue ball close enough to "exact" center so that any miniscule rotation is insignificant to the shot - it's done all the time. It's certainly easy enough that we don't need a "system" based on the idea that it's "impossible" - nor do we need to mislead naive players about it.

pj
chgo

There are no "knuckle balls," the cue ball always has some rotation, the 'Touch of Inside' simply turns this into an advantage for most players (not you of course).

 

[Neil]

What is "the whole point" that you say I seem to be missing? (I'm glad you learned the meaning of the word seem. I hope you learned what the phrase "seems to" means too.)

You're the one that's missed it.

There is much more than just one point to TOI.

But as usual you misstate & distort for you intended purposes.

Clarification of words for the sake of truth & clarity is a far cry from what you & some others do.

May those Blessings come your way asap.

This coming from the guy that always says he is misunderstood. The whole point you missed, is what TOI is supposed to be doing. As far as your insult, nice way to be hypocritical about keeping things civil.

 

[ENGLISH!]

So you're just saying hitting the ball in different places produces different results?

pj
chgo

Yes Patrick.

I thought with all of the many years that you've been playing you would have figured that out by now.

But since all of your off center hits have been by accident, I guess I can understand why you're just starting to understand.





What a childish, immature, trolling type game that is.

You have a great day, Patrick.

 

[Neil]

TOI is much more than just countering the after-contact spin. All shots have some spin, either side spin or forward/back spin. This is simply common sense, and goes without saying out of respect for a mutual intelligence level in all pool players.

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Those same calculations have to be done whether you use TOI or not. Every time the distance and angle changes, you have to re-compute mentally where to hit the cb to get the desired result.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Patrick,

I am sorry to say that I think you are off of Ricks Christmas Card list.

Yes Patrick.

I thought with all of the many years that you've been playing you would have figured that out by now.

But since all of your off center hits have been by accident, I guess I can understand why you're just starting to understand.





What a childish, immature, trolling type game that is.

You have a great day, Patrick.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Is that in the Big Book of Pool Facts? Because otherwise I'll need some corroboration.

And anyway, what about the pros who do use it? How do they do it with a beginner technique?

pj
chgo

I believe the corroboration can be found in the countless hours of pro pool matches on youtube, or by attending pro tourneys. I have availed myself of both of these sources of data, and can conclude decisively that most pros do *not* use the pendulum stroke. (Meaning they all drop their elbow). The first time I *ever* saw a pro use a pinned elbow stroke was Ignacio Chavez at the Turning Stone event. I can't think of a single other pro. Not saying there isn't one, just saying I haven't seen it. Although I have seen several hundred players in pro tourneys *not* using it.

Patrick, your doubt must be based on at least some, (even one?) experience of seeing pros use the pendulum stroke. Can you offer any examples of this?

Fwiw...I agree with your "best practices" concept, and a pendulum stroke *may* fall into that category. However, would you not agree that it was at very least unusual for the majority of pros to *not* use a "best practice"? One might argue that if there is a common technique across all the very best players that this technique may qualify for a "best practice". I do not believe the example of the pendulum stroke is supported by the data. Continuing in this vein, I believe that there is plenty of reason both for and against the pendulum stroke. Don't forget, most "reason" has an inherent bias. Sometimes what seems reasonable is only so because of an incomplete analysis.

Good topic!

KMRUNOUT

 

[railbird99]

IMO, to tell a beginner (or anyone for that matter) that the odds of hitting the exact vertical center line of a 2 1/4" sphere (or any sphere for that matter) with the exact center of what is approximately 3 millimeters of contact space on the end of a 56, 57, 58 inch or longer cue stick

are the same

as intentionally hitting to one side of that vertical center line

would be very misleading, regardless of whether or not they are naive.

Especially so, if all hits are to be taken into consideration over a time frame of several hours or nearly a complete day or two or a week, or a lifetime.

Perhaps that is why so many ultimately choose to use english for a percentage of shots as opposed to trying to consistently hit that infinitely small target with the center of that extremely small 3 mm implement without a miss.

Doing so makes the game so much 'easier' to play well.

And... the TOI method makes it even easier than using english for an extended time frame.

Now ALL please note.. I am not saying that the odds of hitting one's exact target increase by choosing to hit a side of the ball vs targeting that infinitely small exact center line.

I think most all of you will be able to figure out the difference.

Try hitting the exact center line of a golf ball with the exact center of a golf club head so that the ball goes straight.

Try hitting a tennis ball over the net but in front of the base line by hitting the horizontal center line of a tennis ball with the center line of a tennis racket.

I think you will find it much easier to choose hitting one side or the other with a method in mind much easier to do & you will get a much more consistent outcome.

Somehow we seem to find what is easiest & gets the best results in other aspects of our lives. I think we should do the same when it comes to playing pool.

To strive for perfection may certainly be considered honorable or something like that. But... to pursue what can never be had is a bit fool hearty when the best that one can attain may be right before them, at least it is to me.

Best to All,
Rick

There are reasons for using english when you don't necessarily have to, but that's not it.

Whether or not you're trying to hit center, or you are hitting one side of the ball, you still have to strive to be as accurate as possible.

If it's hard/impossible to hit exactly center, then it's also hard/impossible to get the exact amount of spin that you're aiming for when aiming off-center, which means varying amounts of spin, squirt, throw, and swerve.

There's no benefit in accuracy by intentionally hitting with spin vs. aiming for dead center.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are no "knuckle balls," the cue ball always has some rotation, the 'Touch of Inside' simply turns this into an advantage for most players (not you of course).

I believe your TOI technique can help players focus more carefully on where they hit the CB and where they hit the pocket, and those are good things - I'm not surprised that players see improvement in their game with it.

But (as you know) I don't believe there's an advantage to avoiding centerball - you have to hit the CB just as precisely either way to get the intended results, and unintended results are just as bad either way. And I don't believe aiming more precisely at the pocket is the same as "increasing the margin of error" (although it can feel like that).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe the corroboration can be found in the countless hours of pro pool matches on youtube, or by attending pro tourneys. I have availed myself of both of these sources of data, and can conclude decisively that most pros do *not* use the pendulum stroke. (Meaning they all drop their elbow).

I think a pendulum stroke is properly defined as not dropping the elbow significantly before contact. This gets at the purpose of it. I think many pros do use a pendulum stroke that fits this description.

pj
chgo

 

[Chrippa]

This coming from the guy that always says he is misunderstood. The whole point you missed, is what TOI is supposed to be doing. As far as your insult, nice way to be hypocritical about keeping things civil.

Hi Neil,

I have been playing with a TOI "style" for quite a while now and since I have seen you, - at least to my views trashing CJ´s information, style etc. And know you say that you understand TOI and the purpose of it.

Can you please inform me what you see? Is there any benefits? Is there any downs?

Please share some of your thoughts about it.

Regards

Christian

 

[ENGLISH!]

1. Nobody needs to hit the "exact" vertical center of the CB.

2. You must hit as accurately offcenter as oncenter or your shot will be off in exactly the same way.

3. This has been explained many times - you clearly don't understand it, and shouldn't be trying to give advice about it.

pj
chgo

1. Who said anyone 'needs' to hit the exact vertical center of the CB.

2. No, there are more components in play for a planned off center hit. So, one might say that is it more complex or dynamic, but since there are more parameters in play there are components that can be used as compensation with a proper plan.

3. I do understand it & you should not be saying that I don't understand it.

How about this? It seems to be rather obvious that there is much that you seem to not understand about the 'best' ways to play the game.

Much of what you suggest might be good for new beginners that IMO most, not all, but most would leave behind in rather short order.

Maybe it's like CJ said earlier today. He is instructing intermediate to advanced players while you talk mostly about lower level stuff, that as I've said, IMO, I think most would leave behind in rather short order.

It would seem that you play your way & want everyone to play the way you do.

CJ is certainly suggesting his way, but he has said that what he suggests may only be good for about 37% of those playing the game. He has said many times said that if it does not fit one at this time to put it aside as one may want to return to it at some time in the future.

Each individual should make their own determinations.

There are many that were stuck on a plateau until they have either tried something that CJ has suggested or gotten with CJ in person or both & they have experienced rather quick & significant improvements.

Could those individuals get the same rather quick results of improvements by following what you say or by getting with you in person?

I've seen quite a few testimonials & thank yous sent CJ's way.

I've not seen any sent to you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI is an alignment/total playing system, not an Aiming or Focus System

I believe your TOI technique can help players focus more carefully on where they hit the CB and where they hit the pocket, and those are good things - I'm not surprised that players see improvement in their game with it.

But (as you know) I don't believe there's an advantage to avoiding centerball - you have to hit the CB just as precisely either way to get the intended results, and unintended results are just as bad either way. And I don't believe aiming more precisely at the pocket is the same as "increasing the margin of error" (although it can feel like that).

pj
chgo

Increased focus is a positive side-effect using TOI, however, it's not why I use it, my focus is fine. The 'Touch of Inside' is much more that it appears to the casual observer, using it catapulted me to the top in the world's gambling scene for many years.

Actually TOI is an alignment/total playing system, not an Aiming or Focus System - of course this can be argued, however the ones now that are using TOI will all know the difference. An Aiming System is like the "sights" on a gun, TOI is the Gun. (metaphorically speaking of course)

My Aiming System is showcased in 1997 in my DVD 'Ultimate Pool Secrets', it teaches to align the a spot on the cue ball to either the Center or Edge of the object ball. This "Aiming System" can by used as a check and balance to the TOI, however, it's not a total playing system like the TOI Technique is.

The TOI shifts from visual aiming to Creating Angles using your tip as a reference. The TOI blends ALL aspects of pool playing into one. With TOI you MUST treat every shot the same, in terms of SHOT SPEED - CREATING SHOT ANGLE - and CUE BALL TARGET. When you master the TOI SHOT, you will, in effect be able to play the complete game at a championship level. Have I "mastered" the TOI Technique? The answer is quite simply "yes".....however just recently have I become advanced at teaching it, in 1997 (when my UPS videos were made) I didn't want to get into teaching the world a different way of playing. Besides, I was using it myself and was the #1 Player in the World (96 Player of the Year voted by Pool and Billiard Magazine), so I really didn't want to divulge my most guarded secret at that time.

Many things have changed in my world and the "pool world," I know longer want to gamble for a living, it's better for my sense of "well being" to help players improve and enable them to reach their maximum performance level if they choose to put the time and dedication into it. 'The Game is the Teacher'