Outsville......... Q and A: Everything Pool.....

[measureman]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Yes Bruce =D

 

[The Renfro]

OHHHH also on the break tip front... The Taom tip is now a new material...

I have my doubts because impact resistant materials usually only come in NATURAL colors or Black.. I asked for the HammerHead to be formulated in Outsville Blue and was denied.. Lucky to get a COF lol....

But with that said I have zero test results on the V2.0 so I am going on good faith that they should be fine and all problems have been addressed....

I had posted pictures of several that failed but they were version 1.0 so if you buy one now yo should not have the exploding tip issues I had previously been warning people about...

As soon as I have one in my hands I will run some tests on hardness, COR and PSI/Impacts for failure.....

They look neat and are putting money into several of the pros pockets so I actually hope they are a decent option....

Chris

 

[edep12]

We will do "Deep Blue" for sure but I do not know if we will expand colors past that.. The "Great White" is non-staining... And I have patrons using it on all different color cloths... Eventually you end up with a dirty table and you CAN see that it's dirty but it doesn't leave stains.. I actually like this because I can clean the table before the balls start skidding and throwing..

At the expo after I had stated that someone took a piece of our chalk and drew on the pool table... If you have kids you know THAT is game over... The only way it's coming out is off to the dry cleaners with the bed cloth... It took a few cleanings with Quick Clean, which is what I always use. It's GOOD stuff!! But it came out without leaving a stain....

But YOU want something that matches and maybe the Great White doesn't float your boat because you will still see it... Kamui has released a MAPLE color... So you have 2 options.......

Chris

Thanks, brother. Appreciate you taking the time to answer all of our questions in this thread.

 

[The Renfro]

Under a microscope if you were to look at the surface of the cheaper chalks you would notice that not every bit of the surface area is covered in abrasives... For Master you would only see about a 25% surface area that contained abrasives. You would also note that all the abrasives were not the same size.. Some will be larger and some will be smaller...

Once you move up to say Blue Diamond you will notice that there is 2x the amount of abrasives and that they had been graded because pretty much all of them will be the same size...


It would be interesting if someone listed the usual chalks mentioned here on AZB with the amount of abrasives each one has....HINT HINT




2)Glazing... ALL tips glaze... Some do it worse than others and some do it so little you don't ever really notice... While tip construction can make a tip glaze easier it is the chalk or the chalking habit that causes the glazing... Any time the abrasives have ruptured down in size to where they are barely gripping you get microslips... This is when you didn't misscue but you didn't get all the spin you think you should have... When this happens you are burnishing your tip just a little bit and over time the whole tip is glazed... With the premium chalks since there are larger and more abrasives there are fewer micrslips and you will start to feel them if you have to use one of the cheaper chalks because you left the good stuff at home...

3)Frequency of chalking... I chalk every time if I am in a tournament or gambling and it's part of my PSR... Not everyone does and with the premium chalks you really don't have to.... If you chalk at the beginning of the game you will have fresh full size abrasives... Picture them stacked like gravel... Every shot crushes the gravels against each other with enough force to cause them to fracture... Enough shots and you no longer have any gravel.. All you have is sand which may not be large enough in particle size to grip the cueball... Cheaper chalks and you have no way to know when you will get to the sand instead of gravel stage.....

So if you use better chalk and chalk less often will your tip take longer to glaze over?

Actually better chalk and good chalking habits will keep the tip from glazing as quickly... The idea is to rechalk before you have nothing but small pieces of abrasives left... Most times glazing is simply burnishing from going too long between chalking up or from using cheaper chalks....

I can likely put some information up on the different premiums but they are ball parked based on physical examination... The only 2 chalks I will have actual lab results on are Blue Diamond and Magic... Have to drop them at the lab first day I have time to drive into Oak Ridge... So I don't have the results yet but have already called ahead and spoke to owners daughter... She had just graduated college when I worked for them so it made me feel old to hear her dad finally retired....

 

[hang-the-9]

Science and such aside, just from using the stuff, I know I like the Blue Diamond and Magic Chalk better than the rest. Not having tried yours yet, the white scares me a bit to use on some-one else's table LOL.

They go on smoother and have a feeling of sticking to the cueball and tip more rather than just being brushed over like even other good chalks like Masters and Predator.

 

[Darkridder]

How often should a daily player get a new set of balls?

 

[Cardigan Kid]

In regards to chalk:

1. I found blue diamond and even magic chalk had that sand paper grit feel to it, and after a few sessions with them, the kamui tip (soft) needed some light shaping. But using Kamui chalk our great white the feel is more creamy, and the tip hardly ever needs a touch of shaping.

What is the reason why chalks can still work but not be as abrasive of the reason any chalk works is that it contains abrasives to grip the cue ball?

2. Why is Kamui so expensive in your opinion? Have you studied their product under the microscope and is it vastly different in formula or abrasives when compared to great white (which is much more reasonably priced) ?

 

[3kushn]

What's your opinion of the proper way to chalk?

 

[The Renfro]

How often should a daily player get a new set of balls?

Several things come into play on how long before the balls are worn out... Ball quality, How clean you keep your table and how you care for the balls....

1)The quality of balls you buy is paramount... Buying lower end balls means they are not to the same tolerances as the Super Aramith, Aramith Duramith, Brunswick Centennials, Made by Aramith and Cyclop... Yeah yeah noone like them but me....

Starting with a premier set or an offbrand means you are already in the hole as far tolerance... The ones mentioned above are within 1 thousandths.. The cheaper ones at best are within 3 thousandths...

2)Basically a dirty table is like a giant piece of sandpaper balls will wear faster on a table that is not kept clean....

3)Do you have a ball return table?? CLEAN THE RETURN!!! Chalk collects in the return and can quicken the wear on the balls.. This is always overlooked....

4)Also cleaning them by hand with vs using a ball polisher will increase their life span...

When I worked at the poolroom in college I would clean the balls several times a week in one of the Bludworth Ball Polishers... It took about 6 months before I realized that the new ball sets we had bought were no longer full sized. We had an 8ball stolen and the new one was huge in comparison... I switched from using the actual polish which had some abrasives to just using pledge... I would still clean them balls in the cleaner because there were 12 sets but I didn't have to worry about taking of a few microns each time....

As far as how long should you expect a good set of balls to last? My Centenials were in play daily for about 2 years..

I cleaned them only by hand with purell hand sanitizer.... Yes hand sanitizer... We use it every night in the Accu-Stats arena during a tournament... Non Abrasive and not astingent enough to dry the surface out to where they skid.... It's one of the few things that easily removes the marks the diamond pockets used to leave on the balls....

I checked them a few weeks ago and they are borderline size wise.. If I was going to introduce a new cueball I would definitely be replacing them... Actually I bought a measles ball to use at the poolroom with the cyclop they have which are new so I had to check my centennials...

You could weigh a set when you get them and weigh them every few months... When there is a noticable change in weight there will be a noticable size difference... I figure the odds on having a scale around is much higher for most people than having a good set of dial indicators....

So I guess I am saying there is no firm timeline for swapping your ballsets like there is no definite timeline for your tips.. There are however ways to measure the changes as they happen to let you know when the time comes....

Chris

 

[The Renfro]

In regards to chalk:

1. I found blue diamond and even magic chalk had that sand paper grit feel to it, and after a few sessions with them, the kamui tip (soft) needed some light shaping. But using Kamui chalk our great white the feel is more creamy, and the tip hardly ever needs a touch of shaping.

What is the reason why chalks can still work but not be as abrasive of the reason any chalk works is that it contains abrasives to grip the cue ball?

2. Why is Kamui so expensive in your opinion? Have you studied their product under the microscope and is it vastly different in formula or abrasives when compared to great white (which is much more reasonably priced) ?

The abrasives are not really all you feel when you are putting chalk on or rubbing it between your fingers... There are fillers at work that act as carrriers for the abrasives... The finer the fillers and the use of certain fillers makes the chalk smoother/creamier....

As far why is Kamui so expensive...

1)The formulation... I would have to bet they paid someone to formulate their chalk for them so that has to be recouped...

2)R&D they spent money on learning how to not make the chalk like 100 times before they learned how to make it... Gotta recoup that...

3)Wear and tear on equipment has to be factored into the making of the chalk.. Chalk is messy and destructive... I am having a hard time figuring lifespan on our equipment and it nowhere near the cost and sizing of a major manufacturer.. I tack on a few cents per cube but it may be much higher and they know this....

4) actually 4)Big one here... Advertising.... Kamui likely has an advertising budget of over 6 figures a year... That's why they are selling $30 chalk and $30 tips... If we start advertising big time you will see that our products have to go up as well since it will be allocated to the units of product we make and sell...

Chris

 

[The Renfro]

What's your opinion of the proper way to chalk?

Basically the chalk on the tip is like stacked layers of glass... Drilling a hole to china and grinding the tip into the cube of chalk will make the tip blue but it will rupture some of the abrasives before you EVER hit a ball...

Treat the chalk like a little paintbrush and just put a new light layer on each shot... IF YOU ARE GOING TO DRAW THE RACK RAILS go ahead and take the time to recoat the whole tip....

Chris

 

[Mr. Bond]

Let me see if I can explain the differences in at least chalks....

Under a microscope if you were to look at the surface of the cheaper chalks you would notice that not every bit of the surface area is covered in abrasives... For Master you would only see about a 25% surface area that contained abrasives. You would also note that all the abrasives were not the same size.. Some will be larger and some will be smaller...

Now don't get yourself in trouble chief.
Can you prove that the surface of Master chalk will be only 25% abrasives? If not, it might not be a good idea to claim that as fact.

As a side note, IF there are various sized abrasives, it may or may not be a good thing. It depends on the hardness of the particles. ( whether or not they are prone to shatter upon impact) Some industrial grade silicon (sand) will and some will not under pool game conditions.

Side note #2: if you are aware of ( or can find out) the " ideal" particle size to grip certain phenolic formulations, you have won half the battle already.


Once you move up to say Blue Diamond you will notice that there is 2x the amount of abrasives and that they had been graded because pretty much all of them will be the same size...
Again , this may or may not be good. Smaller particles can equate to more surface area , which can, in theory, equate to more grip, but this will obviously depend on the percentage of the mix as a whole, and the grade of said abrasives. " More " abrasives might seem better, but if they are of poor quality, you have expensive dust.

Larger particles might grip better, depending on size, but if they crush upon impact, the quality is poor and the effect is negated quickly even if the chalk sticks well.


This matters for 3 reasons...

1)You can chalk with cheap chalk and misscue because you didn't really didn't get anything on the tip but binders and maybe small abrasives... This is a RARE occurance but if you gamble, play tournaments or lague where one game might mean something it still matters.. Think about that the next time you chalk up and misscue... Sometimes it wasn't the stroke.....

2)Glazing... ALL tips glaze... Some do it worse than others and some do it so little you don't ever really notice... While tip construction can make a tip glaze easier it is the chalk or the chalking habit that causes the glazing... Any time the abrasives have ruptured down in size to where they are barely gripping you get microslips... This is when you didn't misscue but you didn't get all the spin you think you should have... When this happens you are burnishing your tip just a little bit and over time the whole tip is glazed... With the premium chalks since there are larger and more abrasives there are fewer micrslips and you will start to feel them if you have to use one of the cheaper chalks because you left the good stuff at home...

So your claim here is that premium chalks use larger abrasives. As mentioned already, this may or may not be good depending on A.) size of particles and their compatibility to the surface of the phenolic compound. B.) whether or not they break down during common play conditions .

Particle size could be determined fairly easy, but do you know the grade of hardness and whether they will actually break down during common play? This may be a bit presumptuous on your part, which you have admitted in the last sentences of the next paragraph.


3)Frequency of chalking... I chalk every time if I am in a tournament or gambling and it's part of my PSR... Not everyone does and with the premium chalks you really don't have to.... If you chalk at the beginning of the game you will have fresh full size abrasives... Picture them stacked like gravel... Every shot [ might or might not] crushes the gravels against each other with enough force to cause them to fracture... Enough shots and you no longer have any gravel.. All you have is sand which may not be large enough in particle size to grip the cueball... Cheaper chalks and you have no way to know when you will get to the sand instead of gravel stage.....

Chris

Dont be mad bro.

You would likely be the one who could correct that if so...

I will try to find the article. It was from a snooker publication and post it here... Since the first chalks were naturally occuring mineral deposits it made sense to the smell test..

I have no idea what color the Spinks chalk was but maybe just maybe your museum has some? I have only seen images of the box....

Chris

I was just yanking your chain really. I think ( at least I hope) that most people know that naturally occuring chalk is white. Colored or tinted chalk ( not for pool) appears to have been invented about 1814. While colored " artificial chalk " for pool came along many years later, and appears to have originated in France, like many of our billiard traditions.

Spinks et al copied what was happening in Europe. The first u.s. patent for artificial billiard chalk appears to have been about 1884 and 85 ( Wiggins and Peple) and was made primarily of barcyte and gypsum, or silica and chrome green. Spinks/ Hoskins followed suit, but didn't really invent anything new.

 

[Darkridder]

How do you properly clean a table? The playing area.

 

[The Renfro]

In 2011 a new magazine hit the market.. Was called Cue and Table magazine... It was an online magazine and they actually were the start of my journey into chalk... They actually published the original pictures showing the surface coverage of 3 different brands of chalk. Kamui, Master and Blue Diamond.... I bought a microscope and started looking at the other brands to compare those and scraping sections to get a better look...

I wish I had archived copies of the magazine but I did not and even wayback won't pull it....

I could invest in a microscope that will attach to my computer so I can capture images but right now we have more important purchases....

As far as what the optimum Micron size is... I tested... Different Abrasives that were different mohs hardness and Micron sizes from 10 to 50....

I went with what worked the best as far as standing up to mutiple shots without feeling too gritty that would create a solid contact between the cueball and even a phenolic tip...

It really has been almost 4 years now since we started testing and working on a formula... Don't think for one second I just threw some chemicals together and said HEY LOOK CHALK!!!! Lots of hours and lots of failed formulas have came before "Great White" was ready.....


Chris

 

[The Renfro]

How do you properly clean a table? The playing area.

I have brushed and vacuumed tables for years and years and years...

Brushing works to some extent but it tends to really just move the chalk around and force the chalk up under the rails were your start to creat chalk dunes.. If you have ever pulled the bed cloth off a table that has only been brushed you have seen the buildup....

Vacuuming does a superior job as long as there is not too much suction that pulls the cloth from the slates surface stretching it... We had a small hand vac that we used every night at the pool room and it did a great job....

But welsome to 2015.... Quick Clean is a dryceaning product that is produced by Dave Hodges... Well it's formulated for him =D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrdBmRYY8r4


Now Dave may not be happy with me for this part....

I take the quick clean and spray down a microfiber towel... I do not spray the product on the table since that uses more of it than I want to and I suck at not getting globs.... I then fold the towel over and make a quick clean sandwich and let the product soak into the towel... I then wipe half the table surace with half the towels face that has the Quick Clean on it and then the other half of the table with the other face..... And I wipe the rails faces last....

It takes me less than 2 minutes to clean the table this way and it pulls up amazing amounts of chalk... I started doing it this way because I had to come up with a way to get waitresses to clean the tables at our local Bailey's... 2 Minutes and done was what was going to be required.. Any more time and management would likely not have agreed to using the product...

They used the product for several years until a new GM decided they didn't need to spend any mney since they had brushes... Dee de deeeeee....

Ordering a couple of cases this week for a new place in town tho... I actually took a can over that I had from my expo booth to Billiards and Brews... Did my 2 minute clean up and the only question they had was can you get us a case? =D

Sooooo Brushing is the bottom of the pile, vacuuming works pretty well... But my preference is quick clean... Not that I did say preference =D

 

[The Renfro]

Dont be mad bro.



I was just yanking your chain really. I think ( at least I hope) that most people know that naturally occuring chalk is white. Colored or tinted chalk ( not for pool) appears to have been invented about 1814. While colored " artificial chalk " for pool came along many years later, and appears to have originated in France, like many of our billiard traditions.

Spinks et al copied what was happening in Europe. The first u.s. patent for artificial billiard chalk appears to have been about 1884 and 85 ( Wiggins and Peple) and was made primarily of barcyte and gypsum, or silica and chrome green. Spinks/ Hoskins followed suit, but didn't really invent anything new.

Thanks for the time line... I knew they denied Spinks a patent but did not realize Wiggins and Peple held the original... Cool Beans!!!

 

[BigBoof]

If you buy a few tips in bulk, especially those not in blister packs , do you need to store them in a certain way to maintain their hardness?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Renfro]

If you buy a few tips in bulk, especially those not in blister packs , do you need to store them in a certain way to maintain their hardness?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Leather will dry out over time and dry rot... As it starts to lose all of the moisture in the collagen it will lose it's elasticity and the tips will harden up...

In humid conditions I have actually seen tips draw/wick moisture from the air....

A good bet is to get some tupperware containers and store your bulk tips in them.. IF there is no air movement then there should be no loss or wicking of moisture...

An even better bet is to aquire a cheap humidor and maintain the humidity levels around 50% relative humidity... 35% is too low and 70% is too high.... At least those are the numbers I have seen associated with leather storage.......

 

[9andout]

Hey Chris, it was a pleasure to meet you at the SBE.
I REALLY like the Solo templates. Also the hammerhead tip.
I have a question about shaping the med soft Ki tech tip I got.
Do you recommend any particular tip shaper or method?
I have used my It's George shaper for years. With your tip it seems to "pull" the fibers out a bit more than my old tip. (the best way I can describe it)
Is this normal? Should I be doing / using something different?
Btw it DOES hold chalk VERY well just like you said!

 

[The Renfro]

Hey Chris, it was a pleasure to meet you at the SBE.
I REALLY like the Solo templates. Also the hammerhead tip.
I have a question about shaping the med soft Ki tech tip I got.
Do you recommend any particular tip shaper or method?
I have used my It's George shaper for years. With your tip it seems to "pull" the fibers out a bit more than my old tip. (the best way I can describe it)
Is this normal? Should I be doing / using something different?
Btw it DOES hold chalk VERY well just like you said!

Anything with large grit it rough action... For maintenace the best results are going to be had with the ultimte tip tool or the old sandaper shapers... Use a finer sandpaper on them so you don't keep pulling fibers up.... Pulling the fibers causes you to have to wear them back in everytime you perform maintenance...... If it's just a matter of dressing the tip because it's impacted with chalk I use a tip pick in those situations....