Best "Affordable" 4th Axis

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RBC said:
George

I just might like to try the Easy Servo.

What would you recommend for my inlay machine.

XZero Raptor (older version from a few years ago)
4 axis, X Y Z A
10mm pitch ball screws
800 ipm rapid speeds
Real actual step resolution of .00006", max (to allow for following error and be in position)
4 inputs for home switches
4 inputs for motor fault signals
8 inputs for spindle amplifier signals for ATC (4 for each of 2 spindles)
5 outputs to control relays or solenoids for spindles, vacuum, dust collection etc.

I would prefer to have 4mhz pulse input frequency, but as I understand it, this controller is 2mhz. This would be fine as long as I can reach the rapids necessary with the required resolution.


You can PM me with pricing if you wish, or post it here. I have the links to the leadshine products, so I can get the technical details there. I just need to know which ones you recommend and offer. Also, since I don't find any break out boards or other peripherals, I'll need links to those components so I can find the necessary technical data to hook it all up.

As I've said before, I just want to know more about the leadshine. Since there's no information about them here, and I can only read the limited technical data on their website, I thought it would be best to test them myself. I can then report back how well they do.

I look forward to your response.

Royce
Click to expand...

What controller? easyservo don't have controller . Just like Clearpath you get one from another company.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've been perusing these thread for a while, am I understand the below properly?:



1. Most cue makers (especially part time ones), and hobbiest cnc owners have traditionally used open loop stepper systems, mainly because servo cost was out of reach. These stepper systems have worked fairly well. The drivers for these steppers have gotten much better over the years. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, open loop stepper driver, stepper motor, simple cabling.



2. Leadshine makes a closed loop stepper system, that solves one of the biggest disadvantages of steppers. This is competitively priced for the hobbiest market. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, closed loop stepper driver, stepper motor, encoder on motor, more complex cabling than #1 above due to encoder cabling.



3. Traditional servo systems have always been the top of the line. They come in brushed and brushless versions. Closed loop feedback of course is the foundation of how they work. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, servo driver, servo motor, encoder on motor, motor power plus encoder cabling. The servo drivers and servo motors individually have usually been 3x or greater than the cost of the stepper counterpart components.



4. Clearpath stepper killers are the same as #3, in a brushless version. But they package the servo driver into the endcap of the motor, resulting in fewer components to buy. Another difference they have is with the cabling. Because the driver is on the motor itself, the 4 wires from the full quadrature encoder are fully contained inside of the motor assembly, instead of having to be run all the way back to the control box of the cnc machine. Basic requirement per axis are power supply, servo motor (with integrated driver), encoder on the motor, motor power cabling and direction cabling . The performance of this is the same as #3, but the price is much closer to #1 than #3, making servo technology in reach of the hobbiest cnc machine owner, or part time cuemaker.



Is all this about right? And if so, we now have at least 2 options (#2 and #4) that are significantly better than #1, but for not a ton more money?



Thanks.
Click to expand...


Yep that sums it up. Personally I have experience with #1 and #4. I am done with #1 on any new builds. I am very happy with #4 and will use that until something better comes out. There are cue makers out there that do use #3 but don't realize that there software is not close looped. By the way the term closed loop is not actually accurate. A closed loop system would involve a scale separate from the motor and ball scree giving direct feedback back to the controller.

Jim.
 
RBC said:
George

I just might like to try the Easy Servo.

What would you recommend for my inlay machine.

XZero Raptor (older version from a few years ago)
4 axis, X Y Z A
10mm pitch ball screws
800 ipm rapid speeds
Real actual step resolution of .00006", max (to allow for following error and be in position)
4 inputs for home switches
4 inputs for motor fault signals
8 inputs for spindle amplifier signals for ATC (4 for each of 2 spindles)
5 outputs to control relays or solenoids for spindles, vacuum, dust collection etc.

I would prefer to have 4mhz pulse input frequency, but as I understand it, this controller is 2mhz. This would be fine as long as I can reach the rapids necessary with the required resolution.


You can PM me with pricing if you wish, or post it here. I have the links to the leadshine products, so I can get the technical details there. I just need to know which ones you recommend and offer. Also, since I don't find any break out boards or other peripherals, I'll need links to those components so I can find the necessary technical data to hook it all up.

As I've said before, I just want to know more about the leadshine. Since there's no information about them here, and I can only read the limited technical data on their website, I thought it would be best to test them myself. I can then report back how well they do.

I look forward to your response.

Royce
Click to expand...

Again , yesterday they were boosting 6400 line encoder that is stock with Clearpath .
What controller would i have to use. Mach3 wont work. It would have to be a fast controller just to take in all that data.

Again your saying 3000 rpm motor will have no problem running slow program with heavy cutting and no belt reduction need?
 
Last edited:
JoeyInCali said:
Hey Ricky, quit with your juvenile lawyer on trial talk already.
Click to expand...

Thomas Wayne said:


He's a "big picture" guy, Joey. He can't be bothered with the mundane little details - such as facts and scientific data - that make his big ideas prove out to be foolish (like his "exploding A-joint" myth, for example).

TW
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the boy who cried Wolf too many times.

We all know how that turned out, don't we.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've been perusing these thread for a while, am I understand the below properly?:

1. Most cue makers (especially part time ones), and hobbiest cnc owners have traditionally used open loop stepper systems, mainly because servo cost was out of reach. These stepper systems have worked fairly well. The drivers for these steppers have gotten much better over the years. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, open loop stepper driver, stepper motor, simple cabling.

2. Leadshine makes a closed loop stepper system, that solves one of the biggest disadvantages of steppers. This is competitively priced for the hobbiest market. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, closed loop stepper driver, stepper motor, encoder on motor, more complex cabling than #1 above due to encoder cabling.

3. Traditional servo systems have always been the top of the line. They come in brushed and brushless versions. Closed loop feedback of course is the foundation of how they work. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, servo driver, servo motor, encoder on motor, motor power plus encoder cabling. The servo drivers and servo motors individually have usually been 3x or greater than the cost of the stepper counterpart components.

4. Clearpath stepper killers are the same as #3, in a brushless version. But they package the servo driver into the endcap of the motor, resulting in fewer components to buy. Another difference they have is with the cabling. Because the driver is on the motor itself, the 4 wires from the full quadrature encoder are fully contained inside of the motor assembly, instead of having to be run all the way back to the control box of the cnc machine. Basic requirement per axis are power supply, servo motor (with integrated driver), encoder on the motor, motor power cabling and direction cabling . The performance of this is the same as #3, but the price is much closer to #1 than #3, making servo technology in reach of the hobbiest cnc machine owner, or part time cuemaker.

Is all this about right? And if so, we now have at least 2 options (#2 and #4) that are significantly better than #1, but for not a ton more money?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Great post
 
Cant any one explain the benefits of Clearpath? What makes them better than other BLDC motor company's . Is there other company's selling same motor under another label ?
 
gio-XZero said:
What controller? easyservo don't have controller . Just like Clearpath you get one from another company.
Click to expand...

George,

Ok, so if your customer wants a machine with all necessary to run, what do you offer?

Are you saying that you don't offer them anything? I'm a little confused.

Please don't take this as critical of you. I'm just trying to understand.

Royce
 
iusedtoberich said:
I've been perusing these thread for a while, am I understand the below properly?:

1. Most cue makers (especially part time ones), and hobbiest cnc owners have traditionally used open loop stepper systems, mainly because servo cost was out of reach. These stepper systems have worked fairly well. The drivers for these steppers have gotten much better over the years. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, open loop stepper driver, stepper motor, simple cabling.

2. Leadshine makes a closed loop stepper system, that solves one of the biggest disadvantages of steppers. This is competitively priced for the hobbiest market. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, closed loop stepper driver, stepper motor, encoder on motor, more complex cabling than #1 above due to encoder cabling.

3. Traditional servo systems have always been the top of the line. They come in brushed and brushless versions. Closed loop feedback of course is the foundation of how they work. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, servo driver, servo motor, encoder on motor, motor power plus encoder cabling. The servo drivers and servo motors individually have usually been 3x or greater than the cost of the stepper counterpart components.

4. Clearpath stepper killers are the same as #3, in a brushless version. But they package the servo driver into the endcap of the motor, resulting in fewer components to buy. Another difference they have is with the cabling. Because the driver is on the motor itself, the 4 wires from the full quadrature encoder are fully contained inside of the motor assembly, instead of having to be run all the way back to the control box of the cnc machine. Basic requirement per axis are power supply, servo motor (with integrated driver), encoder on the motor, motor power cabling and direction cabling . The performance of this is the same as #3, but the price is much closer to #1 than #3, making servo technology in reach of the hobbiest cnc machine owner, or part time cuemaker.

Is all this about right? And if so, we now have at least 2 options (#2 and #4) that are significantly better than #1, but for not a ton more money?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Its not the point if one is better than the other, it comes to application it is used in first.
Everyone has different application
 
RBC said:
George,

Ok, so if your customer wants a machine with all necessary to run, what do you offer?

Are you saying that you don't offer them anything? I'm a little confused.

Please don't take this as critical of you. I'm just trying to understand.

Royce
Click to expand...

Machine is complete frame.
Option for other stuff.
Motor kits from different company's .
Rails and ballscrew from different company's
I don't understand what your asking, all depends what your asking about?
 
Mc2 said:
Yep that sums it up. Personally I have experience with #1 and #4. I am done with #1 on any new builds. I am very happy with #4 and will use that until something better comes out. There are cue makers out there that do use #3 but don't realize that there software is not close looped. By the way the term closed loop is not actually accurate. A closed loop system would involve a scale separate from the motor and ball scree giving direct feedback back to the controller.

Jim.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I guess open loop vs closed is relative? I've run a few commercial cnc knee mills and they are all like you said, encoders on the servos, and linear scales on the table. So that type of feedback would take into account mechanical play such as screw axial movement, backlash, coupling losses of motor to screw, etc. Where as only having an encoder on the motor would not account for any of that.

What do you mean by the software not being closed loop? I think I've heard something to that affect before, but can't remember where? Do you mean something like Mach 2/3 sends out only step and direction signals, and even if using an encoder on the target motor (whether its stepper or servo), if there is an error in position, it does not get corrected by Mach 2/3?
 
gio-XZero said:
Machine is complete frame.
Option for other stuff.
Motor kits from different company's .
Rails and ballscrew from different company's
I don't understand what your asking, all depends what your asking about?
Click to expand...

He is asking:

"I want to use the motor system you recommend and have had great success with hundreds of your customers. Give me a complete shopping list to make this happen, based on your personal recommendation, and based on the needs of my entire cnc machine that I have outlined."
 
I don't understand,why not just stated the benefits from Clearpath and not step around and try saying this saying that.Which have noting to do with what the question is.
We are talking motor kits, nothing more. Why worry about leadshine ? Tell the great technical info on what you think is the best and not what you think other cant.
 
iusedtoberich said:
He is asking:

"I want to use the motor system you recommend and have had great success with hundreds of your customers. Give me a complete shopping list to make this happen, based on your personal recommendation, and based on the needs of my entire cnc machine that I have outlined."
Click to expand...

The best choice IMO would be the easyservo, You need the low end torque, you don't need high end torque. So low end torque and an encoder, not much more you can ask for .
I don't sell controller card for easyservo, But you would want one with encoder feed back to have true closed loop system
 
iusedtoberich said:
He is asking:

"I want to use the motor system you recommend and have had great success with hundreds of your customers. Give me a complete shopping list to make this happen, based on your personal recommendation, and based on the needs of my entire cnc machine that I have outlined."
Click to expand...

The simple answer is that he doesnt sell anything nor does he have the knowledge to implement such requests.

Basically, if you want anything other than an imported G540 knockoff, then your on your own.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Thank you. I guess open loop vs closed is relative? I've run a few commercial cnc knee mills and they are all like you said, encoders on the servos, and linear scales on the table. So that type of feedback would take into account mechanical play such as screw axial movement, backlash, coupling losses of motor to screw, etc. Where as only having an encoder on the motor would not account for any of that.



What do you mean by the software not being closed loop? I think I've heard something to that affect before, but can't remember where? Do you mean something like Mach 2/3 sends out only step and direction signals, and even if using an encoder on the target motor (whether its stepper or servo), if there is an error in position, it does not get corrected by Mach 2/3?
Click to expand...



Correct again. You seems to have quite a bit of knowledge. I am impressed. I am not sure about Mach 4 yet but ver 3 will not use feedback in any way to correct missed pulses. Printer ports can be the week link in these systems. I have actually tracked back lost steps to the printer port. This is why every machine i have uses a smooth stepper. I only recommend the ess ethernet version as the USB one does not handle noise very well.


Jim.
 
gio-XZero said:
The best choice IMO would be the easyservo, You need the low end torque, you don't need high end torque. So low end torque and an encoder, not much more you can ask for .
I don't sell controller card for easyservo, But you would want one with encoder feed back to have true closed loop system
Click to expand...

Really? Who is going to spend short money on easy servos and then go spend literally 10x the money for a motion controller that will support feedback? Is this external motion controller going to talk to mach or should they go ahead and buy a Fagor 8055 or Fanuc or Siemens controller?

Your recomendation as stated above would require at the cheapest level a Hicon Integra or Mach Motion Apollo 3. Even then, I'm not sure it would be fully closed unless Mach has some kind of algorithm on the back end to know what to do with the information its recieving. Plus.....theres nothing easy about it after you get into this neighborhood.
 
Mc2 said:
Correct again. You seems to have quite a bit of knowledge. I am impressed. I am not sure about Mach 4 yet but ver 3 will not use feedback in any way to correct missed pulses. Printer ports can be the week link in these systems. I have actually tracked back lost steps to the printer port. This is why every machine i have uses a smooth stepper. I only recommend the ess ethernet version as the USB one does not handle noise very well.


Jim.
Click to expand...

10 years ago I spent probably a solid year collectively reading everything I could find! On cnc zone, on artofcnc.ca, including the mach manuals, the emc manuals, etc. lol. I was going to build a cnc and wanted to be a cue maker. I ended up buying components piece meal. I think I bought a bunch of linear rails, ball screws and nuts, gecko servo drives, surplus brushed dc servo motors (for my bridgeport knee mill in the garage), an old atlas lathe to strip and use the bed for the basis of a cnc lathe, etc etc. A taig cnc mill. Long story short, all the stuff and probably more I forgot about is in storage.

Then, I found on here an old Isel cnc from germany. Someone over the years retrofitted it with the cheap steppers and controller kit that sells on ebay for 300 all inclusive. I would like to upgrade this cnc to a servo system. I was figuring I'd use the gecko drivers I already own, and buy maybe cheaper brushed servo motors for it. But now, seeing these newer servo motors from clear path, and especially because people here are using them with great success, I think I might be better off just holding onto the gecko drivers and going all the clear path route. Its a back burner project, just to mess around with. I don't really want to be a cue maker anymore:)
 
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