Best "Affordable" 4th Axis

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Ok, so now that the distraction and mess is behind us, I would like to continue to try to learn more about the leadshine Easy Servo system. Maybe we can get some where now.

Here's what I know.

They are discreet drives, meaning that each drive is a single axis.
Each drive has a 200khz cap, which shouldn't really be a problem.
The voltage and amperage ranges available are plenty for what we need. (ES D808)
They are made in China, which does come with some limitations for support and problem solving.
They have 1000 line encoders, which is on the light side for my tastes.
The biggest motor that is still NEMA 23 is 283 ounce. Seems low to me, but I don't know how they run.
They do require some sort of a motherboard to hook them up. I would use the Ethernet SmoothStepper anyway.

Here's what I don't know

Just exactly how does it really work. Does it marry the motor position to the encoder feedback? I would think so, but there are some nuances to that. It's just not possible for any system to anticipate what speed and direction changes are coming, which means that it first sees the command to move, and then must move. This results in "Following Error", which is a normal part of all servo systems. They state that it operates like a stepper and stays in sync. But, if it does miss a step, then when and where does it make it up?

What is the effective speed to power profile? I haven't found any charts that could tell me how much the power drops off as it starts to move. Steppers are holding motors, so their power drops very quickly with movement. If this system does operate like a stepper system that would be true of it as well.



So what's next. Jake, you mentioned that you have some of these. Which ones? Have you tried them? I know how busy you are with the day job, so I'd understand if you haven't. If you haven't tried them, would you mind if I did? I really want to make all my machines bullet proof and if these can do that I'm not opposed to them.

Does anyone else have any experience with them? If so, please share. If so, how did you set them up? What motherboard did you use?


Maybe we can get some good information out of this thread after all.


Royce
 
scdiveteam said:
[...]
As for George, he is the dark horse in the race as far as I am concerned. I have developed a relationship with him and I see him as a person who is honest, very talented and great business man. [...]
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I think that's wonderful, and I'm sure you guys will get along great. To my eye you two seem to be "cut out of the same cloth", as they say.

TW

 
scdiveteam said:
Do your homework Dave. Are you serious.

Leadshine in a Global manufacturer and has over 100 employees in the R&D department alone with a world wide distribution network.

If they lose their ISO certification, their dead! The website was not updated. All of their customers have the current docs in their vendor certification files ( subject to audit ) or they would not maintain their ISO Cert.

So miss the point like PJ Joey and keep looking silly as usual over non issues. You are a master of missing the point and side tracking the real issues at hand.

Hey Dave jump on a bandwagon going over the cliff!

I thinks this is the first time you quoted me and did not call me a liar. WOW!

Ricky

BTW, Jimbo never banned me and I can go there and post at any time.
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Why the hell did you call them and tell them the certificate is expired then ?
Go read that post again.
You're magnanimous ahole self couldn't resist posting another stupid picture and dig.
If I have to shitcan the Leadshine for the Clearpath at some point it will be worth the effort.
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You're also being two faced. Don't consider the Clearpath set-up, RBC, TW and Jake are recommending .
 
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RBC said:
George,

You seem to keep asking for me to post the advantages of clearpath motors. While I don't think this thread is any kind of contest and I don't think posting anything like this will solve anything, I'd be happy to post what I think you want.

Here are the advantages, from my perspective, of the clearpath motors. Keep in mind that I manufacture pool cues, so my perspective is based solely on the needs of what I do.

Clearpath motors provide the following advantages over my current stepper based system.

1. No chance for losing steps. (provided that the signals made it to the control)
2. Resolution that is much better than with my steppers.
3. A quality built product with US based support and the 90 return policy
4. Many choices of motors to better fit my application.
5. Extremely easy to implement. The complete control system is simple and has far fewer components.

I don't currently have a system with clearpath motors on any machines in my shop. I do have 2 motors at the shop waiting for me when I get back. They will go on a new special purpose machine that I built before I left on this 5 week stay in Las Vegas. That machine is currently running very successfully on a Gecko G540. My goal is to make it bullet proof. Remember, I don't run the machines myself, my employees do. Since they don't all posses CNC building skills like I do, I need the machines to be very stable.

I would absolutely love to know more about the leadshine systems. They may be an even better choice for my machines than clearpath. The trouble is that I don't know. The only information I have found on them was suspect of them.

George, I've answered your requests of me to provide the advantages of clearpath motors. Please follow with some answers of my questions.

Royce
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Those are huge factors imo.
Good luck on your next project Royce.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Those are huge factors imo.
Good luck on your next project Royce.
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Joey

I understand, but keep in mind that I have 2 stepper based systems now that don't ever really get out of position. They are both Gecko G203v systems with Gecko's steppers, but they do work very well without miss-positioning. One of them, which is on George's machine, rapids at 800 ipm with stiff acceleration settings. I tune it back to 500 as 800 isn't really necessary. We do "home" these machines often, but it's really just a safety precaution.

However, I do want to "commercialize" them so to speak, which is why I'm looking into feedback based systems.

Royce
 
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Here's a comparison of what I see as necessary components for each system.


Clearpath
Ethernet SmoothStepper
ESS terminal board
TTL relay board if needed
Toroid power supply with 5v out also
Clearpath motor (1 for each axis) with 1 signal cable and 1 dc power cable each.
Home switch board and related optical switches.


Leadshine Easy Servo
Ethernet SmoothStepper
ESS terminal board
TTL relay board if needed
Toroid power supply
Home switch board and related optical switches
Leadshine Easy Servo drive (1 for each axis)
Leadshine Motor (1 for each axis)
Cables from the ESS to each Drive
Cables from each Drive to each motor for Controls
Cables from each Drive to the power supply



As you can see, the only extra parts for the Leadshine are related to it having discreet drives and encoders.

This is where I was trying to lead this thread.


Royce
 
A few observations/questions:

1. Every metal working machine built for industry (and not hobby) uses servo motors. Correct?

2. These industrial metalworking machines could have easily used stepper motors, with the addition of the encoding technology that is on servos. This is essentially from a birds eye view what the stepper system is we are discussing on this thread.

3. If there was any advantage of the stepper with an encoder, compared to a servo with an encoder, they would be used on some or many of the industrial machines.

4. Are the above all valid and true?

----- All the above is for industrial machines----

Now, lets talk about the hobby machines, which is what we are using. I don't mean this as a derogatory term. But a machine hand build with aluminum and selling for 10K or less and using shareware software to drive it is not the same as a 3000 lb cast iron machining center selling for 300k.

5. Since, as Mc2 mentioned, Mach 2/3 isn't really "closed loop", is there some advantage to using a stepper with encoder, versus a servo with encoder, on our hobby type systems?

6. Or, is the only real advantage of stepper plus encoder compared to servo plus encoder really only cost, on the hobby level.

7. I know the way a stepper motor torque curve looks is different than a servo motor. But could you easily design a machine with some minor mechanical differences that would be best for each (and for similar price), by simply changing the pitch of the ballscrews?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Why the hell did you call them and tell them the certificate is expired then ?
Go read that post again.
You're magnanimous ahole self couldn't resist posting another stupid picture and dig.

You're also being two faced. Don't consider the Clearpath set-up, RBC, TW and Jake are recommending .
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Joey,

I own the Leadshine Motors and Controller and one of George's platforms. I never commented on Clearpath. TW and Jake use them so they must work real good. "That does not translate into "therefore Leadshine sucks". Or do you see it different?

I already said if Leadshine does not perform with reliability I will go with the recommendation of World # 1, TW. So I am open to the Clearpath in my algorithm. You must be reading things too fast or have wishful or whimsical thinking or memory.

1. If Leadshine performs reliability test, then use same.

2. If Leadshine is not reliable, then buy Clearpath or whatever.

I have yet to hear someone say, "I used the Leadshine stuff and it is problematic". So until I know different I will trust what George is saying because I think he is a very good and knowledgable man. I don't know much and wish to learn.

Joey is the one who claimed the ISO expired. I told him that the website only needed to be upgraded with the new audit cert. So what?

The question to me is, does Leadshine work as well with 4 th axis? That's what I am going to find out.

I won't call you a name other than a troublemaker. What gets you so hot and bothered, I don't understand?

And after I lit a candle for you and prayed for your quick neck recovery at Mass 2 Sundays ago.

Rick
 
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iusedtoberich said:
A few observations/questions:

1. Every metal working machine built for industry (and not hobby) uses servo motors. Correct?

This is true, but the power needed to move the large heavy commercial milling machines requires servo's. Steppers just aren't practical.

2. These industrial metalworking machines could have easily used stepper motors, with the addition of the encoding technology that is on servos. This is essentially from a birds eye view what the stepper system is we are discussing on this thread.

3. If there was any advantage of the stepper with an encoder, compared to a servo with an encoder, they would be used on some or many of the industrial machines.

For the size and power requirements of our machines, there is a cost advantage over full servo based systems.

4. Are the above all valid and true?

----- All the above is for industrial machines----

Now, lets talk about the hobby machines, which is what we are using. I don't mean this as a derogatory term. But a machine hand build with aluminum and selling for 10K or less and using shareware software to drive it is not the same as a 3000 lb cast iron machining center selling for 300k.

5. Since, as Mc2 mentioned, Mach 2/3 isn't really "closed loop", is there some advantage to using a stepper with encoder, versus a servo with encoder, on our hobby type systems?

It may surprise you that you would find many commercial machines that don't close the loop back to the controller. With today's technology, only the most stringent requirements of accuracy and repeatability would require a "True"fully closed loop system with both encoders and scales.

6. Or, is the only real advantage of stepper plus encoder compared to servo plus encoder really only cost, on the hobby level.

One other possible advantage, for those of us who build our own control systems, is the ease of building it. The fewer components and the fewer the cables means quite a lot to me.

7. I know the way a stepper motor torque curve looks is different than a servo motor. But could you easily design a machine with some minor mechanical differences that would be best for each (and for similar price), by simply changing the pitch of the ballscrews?

This is absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I asked some of the questions I have in this thread is to determine if changes would be necessary to my machine in order to properly utilyze the easy servo setup.
Click to expand...

Very good observations!

See my comments in blue above


Royce
 
scdiveteam said:
I own the Leadshine Motors and Controller. I already said if they do not perform with reliability I will go with the recommendation of World # 1 TW. So I am open to the Clearpath in my algorithm.

Joey is the one who claimed the ISO expired. I told him that the website only needed to be upgraded with the new audit cert. So what?

I never commented on Clearpath. TW and Jake use them so they must work real good.

The question is does Leadshine work as well with 4 th axis. That's what I am going to find out.

I won't call you a name other than a troublemaker. What gets you so hot and bothered, I don't understand.

Ricky
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Hey Ricky, the one you posted is expired.
attachment.php

If you would like to contest that one, have at it .
And in case you forgot, I said FWIW, that it is an expired certificate.
Did you thank me btw? Then flipflopped and said it really didn't matter? Make up your mind .

George is at cult status to you. Don't go against him. Even though you claim you are an objectivist. You hate TW to the bone anyway. Why take any advise from him ?
Troublemaker ? Go through this whole thread and figure out which ahole just kept posting juvenile memes. Complete with stupid wannabe trial lawyer talk.
While others really want to get down on how to actually better the kit George sells.

PS
I'm not Dave.
 
Thomas Wayne said:


I think that's wonderful, and I'm sure you guys will get along great. To my eye you two seem to be "cut out of the same cloth", as they say.

TW
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Both successful business men for one thing?

George just delivered 77 machines within six weeks. I guess he must not be stupid?

20+ years experience tells me he has things figured out pretty good.

That does not diminish one thing you said as a Clearpath advocate. It is obviously working perfectly for you and Jake just fine and I know you are a stickler for detail to the nines.

Thanks TW, your technical posts are very well received as gospel by us plebeians.

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
Both successful business men for one thing?

George just delivered 77 machines within six weeks. I guess he must not be stupid?
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See there? You're already starting to write like George - punctuating a statement with a question mark. You guys were made for each other.

Although, English is your first language... right?

scdiveteam said:
[...]
20+ years experience tells me he has things figured out pretty good.

[...]
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I do have to wonder where you got the "20+ years" number? I mean, depending on which of your posts I read you either have been trying to make cues for 3 years, or 11 years. Neither comes very close to "20+ years"

And George has posted that he's been in the CNC machine business for 8 years. That also is not very close to "20+" years.

So where does the "20+ years experience" come enter into it? Who are you saying has the "20+ years experience"?

TW

(PS: For the record, I began experimenting with CNC in the mid-80's, and first used it for an actual cue inlay around 1988. So that's a fair bit of experience too, I would say.)

 
Thomas Wayne said:


See there? You're already starting to write like George - punctuating a statement with a question mark. You guys were made for each other.

Although, English is your first language... right?



I do have to wonder where you got the "20+ years" number? I mean, depending on which of your posts I read you either have been trying to make cues for 3 years, or 11 years. Neither comes very close to "20+ years"

And George has posted that he's been in the CNC machine business for 8 years. That also is not very close to "20+" years.

So where does the "20+ years experience" come enter into it? Who are you saying has the "20+ years experience"?

TW

(PS: For the record, I began experimenting with CNC in the mid-80's, and first used it for an actual cue inlay around 1988. So that's a fair bit of experience too, I would say.)
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The question is how much experience do you have with Leadshine steppers and controller. I will let you know how I like them in the future for sure not that means that much but you know. Cues tend to speak for them selves.

The most experienced man in the world is never is afraid to say, "I don't know".

We all know your accomplishments and the benchmarks you set in the industry. Everyone understands that very well.

What do you think George just opened his company without a ton of experience under his belt. So if someone starts a business and is making a living from it within five years they are successfull by any standard. The reason most start ups fail within 5 years is Capitol. George is doing just fine me thinks.

As for me I have being building cues for Almost 12 years and doing cue repairs for over 14 years. I did not start selling cues with my E on them until 2012. I don't build cues just for the money.

So spin it anyway you want. IMHO George is a great guy who was posting his opinions here and I believe you were instrumental in driving him away with your bantering of him on a personal level.

That is too bad.

Disappointed in TW,

Rick
 
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Dave38 said:
Rick can't keep his Daves and Joeys straight...:grin:
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Grow up! You and Joey are a Punch and Judy show and don't do multiple quotes as good or organized at TW for sure.

Stick with the thread please some here actually are learning info.

Are you ready?

 
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scdiveteam said:
Grow up! You and Joey are a Punch and Judy show and don't do mutipul quotes a good or orginized at TW for sure.

Are you ready?
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Hey Rick, how about you grow a brain?
Quote the right person then respond to him.
Before that , get their identities right.
How many fkkn times are you going to mistake one Dave for another ???
And stop flipflopping and being a two-face .
Grow up and stop posting STUPID memes. You're not a zit-faced teenager.

PS
It's multiple and organized. smh
Seems like you're not ready.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Hey Rick, how about you grow a brain?
Quote the right person then respond to him.
Before that , get their identities right.
How many fkkn times are you going to mistake one Dave for another ???
And stop flipflopping and being a two-face .
Grow up and stop posting STUPID memes. You're not a zit-faced teenager.

PS
It's multiple and organized. smh
Seems like you're not ready.
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Like TW says PJ, I am a big picture guy. You can be a helper!

Will Stockdale: [to the captain] I spend most of my time in the latrines, because Sgt. King said he never seen a man so interested in latrines as you are.



So let's keep the thread in tacked and on topic PJ and not in the toilet!

 
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scdiveteam said:
Like TW says PJ, I am a big picture guy. You can be a helper!



Let's keep the thread in tacked and on topic!
Link to Ricky's photogarbage bucket.
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Like a juvenile dummy.
You should have lit a candle for yourself.
Not that I believe that another bullkaka story from you.
 
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