Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

[JoeyInCali]

Buddy Hall, Jose Parica and Kim Davenport drop their elbows.
Allison Fisher said the difference between snooker and pool is that in pool, you drop your elbow. Read it on Billiards Digest years ago.

 

[Neil]

Buddy Hall, Jose Parica and Kim Davenport drop their elbows.
Allison Fisher said the difference between snooker and pool is that in pool, you drop your elbow. Read it on Billiards Digest years ago.

There is nothing wrong with dropping ones elbow. IF one can reliably hit the cb where they intend to while dropping. But, when dropping the elbow, there are more things going on that can go wrong during the stroke. Which is why most pros usually don't drop the elbow before contact.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The tip variance is dependent on the bridge length.

It depends on bridge length, "wing span", forearm length and chord length (arc width).

...the tip's variance, though small, IS significant in a game where 1 millimeter can be very significant on the CB or OB.

The tip's variance in my example is a maximum of 0.8 mm (+/- less than 1/2 mm).

I'm not 'disrupting' threads just because I am NOT always in total agreement with you & what you imply.

You disrupt threads by being so defensive and argumentative that you create arguments with yourself, like you did in this case. I didn't say the tip traveled in a straight line (what you argued against) - I said its height variance is miniscule and you exaggerate it.

For those interested in the geometry, the drawing below illustrates it.

Also, rather than confuse things even more with the formula for calculating the height of an arc (from its radius and width), here's an online calculator that does that for you: Calculating the Sagitta of an Arc

pj
chgo

View attachment 58085

 

[JoeyInCali]

There is nothing wrong with dropping ones elbow. IF one can reliably hit the cb where they intend to while dropping. But, when dropping the elbow, there are more things going on that can go wrong during the stroke. Which is why most pros usually don't drop the elbow before contact.

Is there a video somewhere where it shows they drop their elbow AFTER contact ?
I know Bustamante drops it BEFORE contact for sure .

 

[dr_dave]

Is there a video somewhere where it shows they drop their elbow AFTER contact?

Here's one of Mike Massey executing a power draw shot:

Mike Massey Power Draw

Before seeing the video, Mike was convinced a significant amount of drop was occurring before CB contact (to help generate more cue speed). After seeing the video, he didn't think that anymore.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Neil]

Is there a video somewhere where it shows they drop their elbow AFTER contact ?
I know Bustamante drops it BEFORE contact for sure .

There are videos all over youtube. All you have to do is hit pause/play at 1/4 speed and you can see it clearly. Some do drop significantly before contact. As I stated earlier.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thanks Doc.

 

[ENGLISH!]

My statements are very qualified. And you are well aware of it, which is why you don't want to get into an argument about it again. All one has to do to see the evidence is go to this thread (which you just posted in) http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=331440

As I stated previously, there are always two sides to a coin. However, if you are going to present another side, then you owe it to the readers to at least try and be factual in your statements, and not just choose the opposite side of what most instructors teach just because you have a beef with most instructors.

I have no beef with 'most' instructors & the thread to which you keep referring actually proves the opposite of what you keep saying.

I just don't see the full pendulum stroke as better in any manner other than that it is easy to teach the concept.

I also see it easy to explain that straight is better when using the end of a straight stick to attempt to hit the ball in a precise place. If the side of the cue was being used, then an arcing swing like a baseball bat might be more appropriate.

I've made my points & anyone can make their own determinations as to what direction they wish to go... IF they are in the process of making such a decision.

As I sated earlier I am not calling anyone's particular stroke 'inferior'. It's ALL about how well one executes what they are using.

Best Wishes.

PS All one has to do is to do their own experiments & see for themselves how much the tip arcs in the opposite direction of the hand raising & lowering.

PPS If 'most' of the teachers in the nation were teaching common core math, that does not make it a better method. It just makes it the 'commonly' taught method.

 

[Pidge]

Some people need to learn to stop with the arguing because it isn't how they do it. You would think they played at the top level. If how they did it was the best way they would be hitting that cue ball as good as the guys at the top. It makes me laugh.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...straight is better when using the end of a straight stick to attempt to hit the ball in a precise place.

That's not the question. The question is which is more reliable?

- less than 1 mm tip height variance with a fixed elbow

or

- trying to hit the CB to that same precision with a moving elbow

pj
chgo

 

[Ron Swanson]

You've said you don't play snooker.

What do you play? Just curious.

Pool. Do keep up.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Some people need to learn to stop with the arguing because it isn't how they do it. You would think they played at the top level. If how they did it was the best way they would be hitting that cue ball as good as the guys at the top. It makes me laugh.

It's similar to the CTE issue.

I merely made a few statements & expressed my opinions & why I have them.

Then 'attacks' take place.

It is a discussion forum. If everyone agrees on everything then it might as well be shut down.

Some just can not take any disagreement or criticism with what they advocate without going into 'attack' mode.

Dropping the elbow before contact is not necessarily a bad thing. It certainly might be... IF... one is utilizing a full pendulum stroke & has set up where that would be detrimental.

Going 'straight' before contact relieves the requirement of a 'perfect' set up which is rather often difficult to achieve especially on the larger tables.

Taking that 'need' out of the equation frees one up to concentrate & focus on other aspects of playing the game.

As rather many have said, it really does not matter as long as one is hitting where they intend. The method that works for them is ALL that matters.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It depends on bridge length, "wing span", forearm length and chord length (arc width).


The tip's variance in my example is a maximum of 0.8 mm (+/- less than 1/2 mm).


You disrupt threads by being so defensive and argumentative that you create arguments with yourself, like you did in this case. I didn't say the tip traveled in a straight line (what you argued against) - I said its height variance is miniscule and you exaggerate it.

For those interested in the geometry, here's a drawing to illustrate:

Rather than confuse things even more with the formula for calculating the height of an arc (from its radius and width), here's an online calculator that does that for you: Calculating the Sagitta of an Arc

pj
chgo

The illustration can not be viewed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The illustration can not be viewed.

I can see it in my post and in your quote of my post...

How about others? Any problems seeing the illustration (other than not wanting to see it )?

pj
chgo

 

[HawaiianEye]

I can see it in my post and in your quote of my post...

How about others? Any problems seeing the illustration (other than not wanting to see it )?

pj
chgo

The link works for me.

 

[martind2112]

I can see it in my post and in your quote of my post...

How about others? Any problems seeing the illustration (other than not wanting to see it )?

pj
chgo

I can't see it either. I'm using Chrome.

 

[Neil]

It's similar to the CTE issue.

I merely made a few statements & expressed my opinions & why I have them.

Then 'attacks' take place.

It is a discussion forum. If everyone agrees on everything then it might as well be shut down.

Some just can not take any disagreement or criticism with what they advocate without going into 'attack' mode.

Dropping the elbow before contact is not necessarily a bad thing. It certainly might be... IF... one is utilizing a full pendulum stroke & has set up where that would be detrimental.

Going 'straight' before contact relieves the requirement of a 'perfect' set up which is rather often difficult to achieve especially on the larger tables.

Taking that 'need' out of the equation frees one up to concentrate & focus on other aspects of playing the game.

As rather many have said, it really does not matter as long as one is hitting where they intend. The method that works for them is ALL that matters.

Best Wishes to ALL.

What attacks are you referring to? Or do you just like to label any disagreement with you as an attack? Who said dropping the elbow was a bad thing all the time? All I have seen is some, myself included, stating that it is harder to be repeatable and accurate with a dropped elbow before contact.

How do you come to the conclusion that dropping the elbow before contact in an attempt to keep the cue level alleviates any need to a perfect set-up? You keep making that claim, but offer nothing as proof of your statement.

Why does table size matter for how one desires to stroke the ball?

 

[Neil]

I can see it in my post and in your quote of my post...

How about others? Any problems seeing the illustration (other than not wanting to see it )?

pj
chgo

Earlier today, I saw it. Since your edit, the diagram is no longer visible, but the link still is. Also using Chrome.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Earlier today, I saw it. Since your edit, the diagram is no longer visible, but the link still is. Also using Chrome.

OK, thanks Neil. I'm trying a new way to post images - I'll go back to the old way. Please let me know in a few minutes if it's fixed.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

OK, thanks Neil. I'm trying a new way to post images - I'll go back to the old way. Please let me know in a few minutes if it's fixed.

pj
chgo

It is visible again.