Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

ENGLISH!

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You mean the "other than not wanting to see it" comment? That's a joke about it being too technical for many.

Yet another example of your obsession with yourself. Who besides you do you think is interested in the drama between the voices in your head? Chill the f*ck out.

pj
chgo

Well, it, the illustration, was in your post responding to me & you quoted me when you made the 'joke' in your other post.

but... I guess you can spin it how ever you like.

But.. IF you did not mean it the way I took it, then I apologize.

Best Wishes.
 
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JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
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Another circular arguing and wasting a good thread.
Keep at it guys .
Keep arguing over and over and over again.
 

ENGLISH!

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Patrick,

I do not think the illustration depicts the reality of how most set up for 'their' pendulum stroke.

The illustration has the arm perpendicular to the cue. Most, I THINK, set up with the arm perpendicular to the floor & the cue is almost always angled, as we know. So it is not perpendicular to the equator of the ball even if that is the intended contact point.

Also the illustration does not depict a hand to cue type of connection as it has a single pivot point as the 'hand' & that is not the case at all.

Regardless, as I've said, anyone can do their own experiment & see for themselves the amount of tip movement relative to the hand going up & down with or without the applicable connection that would be best for the stroke.

Also, as I said, with a perfect set up & proper connection to the cue it can work well.

I've put out food for thought for anyone interested.

Joey is right. There is no need to circle the wagons.

Best Wishes to ALL.
 
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One Pocket John

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It depends on bridge length, "wing span", forearm length and chord length (arc width).


The tip's variance in my example is a maximum of 0.8 mm (+/- less than 1/2 mm).


You disrupt threads by being so defensive and argumentative that you create arguments with yourself, like you did in this case. I didn't say the tip traveled in a straight line (what you argued against) - I said its height variance is miniscule and you exaggerate it.

For those interested in the geometry, the drawing below illustrates it.

Also, rather than confuse things even more with the formula for calculating the height of an arc (from its radius and width), here's an online calculator that does that for you: Calculating the Sagitta of an Arc

pj
chgo

View attachment 58085

Nice diagram Patrick.

I may or may not be correct in saying this. But, I don't know how many folks see the importance of the fulcrum. What I call the leverage point for the cue. Like a "see saw".

In my experience the bridge length is very important as it should be placed where a a bottoming out of the pendulum is reach. Too close, then the bottom of the pendulum is not reached. I think that this could be an individual length.

Thanks :)

John
 

Neil

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Nice diagram Patrick.

I may or may not be correct in saying this. But, I don't know how many folks see the importance of the fulcrum. What I call the leverage point for the cue. Like a "see saw".

In my experience the bridge length is very important as it should be placed where a a bottoming out of the pendulum is reach. Too close, then the bottom of the pendulum is not reached. I think that this could be an individual length.

Thanks :)

John

John, you are partially right in that statement. But, it is not really the bridge length that does it, it is where you have your tip at ball address. Where you tip is when your forearm is at 90 degrees. You want your tip right at the cb when your arm comes back down to that 90 point.
 

336Robin

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Thank you to John, Neil and Patrick

Thank you to John, Neil and Patrick,
I am going to go practice tonight to make sure my tip is at the 90 degree point and in fact my elbow drop is after the address. I was unaware I had elbow drop and I would lie if I said it didn't bother me a bit I just want to make sure its not something I need to correct.



John, you are partially right in that statement. But, it is not really the bridge length that does it, it is where you have your tip at ball address. Where you tip is when your forearm is at 90 degrees. You want your tip right at the cb when your arm comes back down to that 90 point.
 

336Robin

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Practice and Realization

I took the comments on this thread into context and took it to the table in practice last night and came away from it more satisfied with my results. I cannot see myself playing although next time I go practice I am going to record it but I feel as if I am working on my elbow drop issue. I do have short arms and tend to choke up on the cue some which I adjust for well. I am playing the best Ive played in a long time and feel that I can minimize the elbow drop and that is where my efforts are aimed but I don't think complete elimination is so much important right now as a comfortable transition into less elbow drop over time. Thank you all for your comments.

Thank you to John, Neil and Patrick,
I am going to go practice tonight to make sure my tip is at the 90 degree point and in fact my elbow drop is after the address. I was unaware I had elbow drop and I would lie if I said it didn't bother me a bit I just want to make sure its not something I need to correct.

 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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For those interested, I just did a careful and detailed analysis of how the tip moves during a pure pendulum stroke. Here it is:

TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory

Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!

The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.

Check it out,
Dave
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
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For those interested, I just did a careful and detailed analysis of how the tip moves during a pure pendulum stroke. Here it is:

TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory

Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!

The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.

Check it out,
Dave

Very cool! That should settle the argument with Rick once and for all.

But, of course, it won't. Confirmation bias is strong with this one.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
The model, like the one PJ posted, has the cue level & not angled as would most often be the case & it too has a single pivot point for the hand & with no wrist & that too is not usually the case in reality. And, I think most have the arm perpendicular to the floor & not the cue, but that is subjective & part of the issue.

We do NOT play pool in a science book.

Anyone can do their own bio-mechanical experiment & make their own determinations.

Set up with the tip at the CB & have someone place a mechanical bridge very close to but not touching the cue half way between the bridge hand & the Cue Ball & then take the cue back slowly with the hand swinging up like a pendulum & one should feel the cue lower significantly at that point which is less than at the tip. If the shoulder moves or the elbow lowers to facilitate the cue moving straight then one is NOT utilizing a pendulum stroke.

If that lowering cue & tip is reversed then the tip is approaching the ball as it arcs up & is on an up swing as the hand is going down.

As Renfro/Chris mentioned & I too have said before, the connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is significant in getting the cue to perhaps move in a near straight line & is vital as is the set up that needs to be perfect. The connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is almost always neglected in these types of stroke 'discussions'.

There are a lot of IFs involved & we as human beings are not very adept at emulating that model. We do not even resemble it as we have a hand & a wrist.

When one tries to utilize a method that is dependent on no movement of certain parts like the elbow & shoulder while other parts are moving below, any movement of those parts disrupts the planned movement below.

As Renfro Chris also sort of suggested one can choose to do what comes rather natural or one can chose to try to emulate a pendulum machine that IS perfect.

We as human beings rarely if ever approach perfect when perfect is required.

As I have also said, anyone can & should make their own determinations.

Best Wishes to All.

PS The above is food for thought for those interested. For those not so, please ignore it.

PPS How often is one NOT able to set up perfectly, especially on the larger tables.

PPPS Also, I am NOT looking to 'argue' with anyone. I've made my points as have others & everyone can make their own determinations as well they should.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
For those interested, I just did a careful and detailed analysis of how the tip moves during a pure pendulum stroke. Here it is:

TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory

Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!

The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.

Check it out,
Dave
Nice eye opening work, Dave.

pj
chgo
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Then you should make sure your "food for thought" is accurate and has some merit if you truly are considering others learning of the game. Misinformation helps no one.

I don't see any more evidence or logic in your refutations than in Engish's claims. How it seems is sometimes how it is. Sometimes not. Is there any evidence, *anywhere*, to indicate that elbow droppers are more or less accurate at hitting the location they intend on the vertical axis of the cue ball? Its funny, because at a key moment in a big tournament, I watched an elbow pinner line up on a shot that he had to hit with *slight* draw. He had to reach for the shot a fair amount. I was thinking to myself "wow, its gonna be very hard to be accurate on this cue ball without a big elbow drop, because his body just isn't in a position to allow accuracy with a pendulum stroke. Almost as if he read my mind, he comes thru too low, as I expected he would, and drew the cue ball into the corner pocket. The result exactly matched my prediction. Maybe it was a coincidence.
Point is, where the cueball is most certainly has a significant impact on the effectiveness of a pinned elbow. If the player must line up in such a way that they are stretching, and the "Set" position simply cannot be created without the hand forward of the elbow, then the tip just isn't going to be very controllable. So if you need to stretch a lot, an elbow drop can be a big help. Also, I'm sure many would agree that doing it the same way on every shot is also potentially beneficial (a concept that essentially forms the foundation of most pinned elbow advocates arguments). Do the math there, and I'm sure you can see where this is pointing.

Food for thought (mmm delicious)

KMRUNOUT
 

Neil

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I don't see any more evidence or logic in your refutations than in Engish's claims. How it seems is sometimes how it is. Sometimes not. Is there any evidence, *anywhere*, to indicate that elbow droppers are more or less accurate at hitting the location they intend on the vertical axis of the cue ball? Its funny, because at a key moment in a big tournament, I watched an elbow pinner line up on a shot that he had to hit with *slight* draw. He had to reach for the shot a fair amount. I was thinking to myself "wow, its gonna be very hard to be accurate on this cue ball without a big elbow drop, because his body just isn't in a position to allow accuracy with a pendulum stroke. Almost as if he read my mind, he comes thru too low, as I expected he would, and drew the cue ball into the corner pocket. The result exactly matched my prediction. Maybe it was a coincidence.
Point is, where the cueball is most certainly has a significant impact on the effectiveness of a pinned elbow. If the player must line up in such a way that they are stretching, and the "Set" position simply cannot be created without the hand forward of the elbow, then the tip just isn't going to be very controllable. So if you need to stretch a lot, an elbow drop can be a big help. Also, I'm sure many would agree that doing it the same way on every shot is also potentially beneficial (a concept that essentially forms the foundation of most pinned elbow advocates arguments). Do the math there, and I'm sure you can see where this is pointing.

Food for thought (mmm delicious)

KMRUNOUT

Yes, there is a LOT of evidence. Which is why the instructors teach what they do.

As to the player you watched, the only thing that example really shows is that the player didn't use a bridge when he should have, or that his speed simply was off. To say that he scratched because he used a pinned elbow is reaching as much as he was.

As to your statement that if one can't attain the set position without the hand being forward, then yes, by all means drop your elbow to shoot it if you feel that you would be more comfortable than using a bridge.
 
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Neil

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I don't see any more evidence or logic in your refutations than in Engish's claims. How it seems is sometimes how it is. Sometimes not. Is there any evidence, *anywhere*, to indicate that elbow droppers are more or less accurate at hitting the location they intend on the vertical axis of the cue ball? Its funny, because at a key moment in a big tournament, I watched an elbow pinner line up on a shot that he had to hit with *slight* draw. He had to reach for the shot a fair amount. I was thinking to myself "wow, its gonna be very hard to be accurate on this cue ball without a big elbow drop, because his body just isn't in a position to allow accuracy with a pendulum stroke. Almost as if he read my mind, he comes thru too low, as I expected he would, and drew the cue ball into the corner pocket. The result exactly matched my prediction. Maybe it was a coincidence.
Point is, where the cueball is most certainly has a significant impact on the effectiveness of a pinned elbow. If the player must line up in such a way that they are stretching, and the "Set" position simply cannot be created without the hand forward of the elbow, then the tip just isn't going to be very controllable. So if you need to stretch a lot, an elbow drop can be a big help. Also, I'm sure many would agree that doing it the same way on every shot is also potentially beneficial (a concept that essentially forms the foundation of most pinned elbow advocates arguments). Do the math there, and I'm sure you can see where this is pointing.

Food for thought (mmm delicious)

KMRUNOUT

I and many others believe that a human can be more accurate with only one moving body part. All tests show that the cue stays level for the required amount of time and at the correct time using a pendulum stroke.

Rick states that the tests prove nothing because machines and math were used instead of a human. He states that no human can be that accurate. But, yet, he claims that while no human can be that accurate while only having to control ONE moving body part, somehow, with no evidence at all, he claims that a human can be MORE accurate with at least THREE moving body parts!

If a person can't control one body part, surely they can't control three body parts at the same time. Yet, somehow, you think he is being logical about it all???? I also wonder just how much of the two threads going on the pendulum stroke you have actually read?
 

FranCrimi

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I don't profess to understand any of the calculations so I can't comment on them, but I would imagine that there has to be a list of assumptions to go along with them. I don't know how many of these are relevant to that particular equation but I find in my experience in helping players that the following variables can affect the arc of the player's swing:

-- The angle of attack of the cue at address.
-- The height of the player's hips relative to the table. This also includes knee bends or anything else that might affect the player's height at the table.
-- The position of the player's grip hand at address.
-- Grip hand or finger movement during the stroke and if so, at what point.
-- Wrist movement (or not) of the player during the stroke.
-- The height of the player's chin relative to the cue and if there is any head movement during the stroke.

I'm sure there are more. Then there are also the variety of combinations of the above variables to be considered.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't profess to understand any of the calculations so I can't comment on them, but I would imagine that there has to be a list of assumptions to go along with them. I don't know how many of these are relevant to that particular equation but I find in my experience in helping players that the following variables can affect the arc of the player's swing:

-- The angle of attack of the cue at address.
-- The height of the player's hips relative to the table. This also includes knee bends or anything else that might affect the player's height at the table.
-- The position of the player's grip hand at address.
-- Grip hand or finger movement during the stroke and if so, at what point.
-- Wrist movement (or not) of the player during the stroke.
-- The height of the player's chin relative to the cue and if there is any head movement during the stroke.

I'm sure there are more. Then there are also the variety of combinations of the above variables to be considered.

Fran, the same things apply to a piston stroke. They are not inclusive to a pendulum stroke.
 
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