Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
I was also referring to the year 1999. Keith wasn't at "top maker status" in 1999, either. He was one of the "up and comers" back then.
Good lord, you really don't read well.
I said I put him on par with Keith, in terms of making a good cue, and delivering on time. That's all. My evidence that I held/hold Keith in higher regard was that Keith made 3 cues for me, and Dan only made 1. I consider Keith to be one of the best custom makers on the planet, and have said so on numerous occasions. The fact that a jackass like you is affiliated with him is the only reason I would never buy a cue from him again. Your arrogance is outstanding. You should really dump Keith, because he's holding you back. You should make your own cues instead of letting these guys like Keith and Dan hold you back.
I've noticed you're going after me, but haven't said anything to Mr. Stroud , who seems to be agreeing with my first post. Did you want to get into a cuemaking debate with him? Maybe you could point out how he could have improved his cuemaking operation? Because, as you have said (and nobody else), you're just that good.
This response doesnt even dignify a response as fas as Keith goes since you obviously cant tell the differences between Dans and Keith's cues so I wont bother.. You ARE right that Keith IS one of the best cue makers on the planet. At least we agree on that. As for my "arrogance", you miss interoperate the intent of much that I share here on AZ. Thats YOUR hang up. As for "going after you", I'm not as much doing that as I'm letting others know that there are those here, many who's opinions, some of them at least, that are presented to argue points are formulated only from personal likes, some very questionable, and dont have factual basis. As for Bill, the man has more knowledge regarding cue making that most and at no time have I ever stated, eluded to, or proposed to the contrary.. Only that YOU dont... By the way Keith, Sherri, and I are very happy you like Josey Cues :smile:
Except they can still win DESPITE their cues .
Earl's contract with Cuetec was unheard of then. They matched his major tournament purse . He would have not turned that for the world .
I used to talk to a late cue maker from North Carolina . And what he told me about Earl's shafts is different from your account . And I also talked to a maker wannabe from there for a long time and he was a witness.
Kim Davenport played his best with his Gus . He promptly dumped his Meucci when the contract ran out . Same with Efren. Efren won his US Open with his $15 Jessie cue . I know the history of that cue b/c Efren himself told me and Edwin during lunch about that cue . He also won the 1999 WPA World 9 with that cue alternating with his Judd JT-1. It's on video.
I don't remember too many titles won on Meucci since 1990. Certainly nowhere near as many as Cuetec and Pred .
And on that infamous blind test, the cue that got the most vote as the best hitting cue was the TS sneaky. Tadaaah! Cut down house cue but with a custom shaft with the old Aegis ferrule that is no longer available .
I'm going to safely assume too that Stroud's best hitting cue will hit a lot better than any Lucasi you can pick up.
"Top maker status" is an opinion given by other cue makers and those "in the know"... As for Keith being that well known back then, maybe not as much as now BUT his cues were built the same as they are now which led to him being known as the cuemaker he is today. I may be an integral part to how the cues look but looks is subjective. The way the cues play, not so much. Thats ALL Keith... By the way i started working with Keith in 1999
prove it...
All you guys who think they can prove production cues are made as good as custom cues Prove it.............
Same goes for the custom cue fans, You think customs are better then production cues then Prove it.
I say its a personal opinion and for those who disagree I Got a band saw.
We can just slice those babies right down the center and really take a look.
Few years ago I saw a fairly well known custom cue in a pawn shop.
After taking a closer look the cue was falling a part and warped all to shit.
There isn't one person in here would allow me to make a statement like Yes I saw one of his cues and it was $hit.
Straight up this cue had gotten hot and I would guess it was left in a car.
But not everyone would know that..
I got a ton of pictures of failed meucci cues, Doesn't prove anything.
These cues are all screwed up but hell who knows maybe my basement flooded.
Maybe I left them in my car.
So I have a band saw with a fence, just send me your cues I will do a video of cutting your cue down the center and we can put a end to all this nonsense.
All you guys who think they can prove production cues are made as good as custom cues Prove it.............
Same goes for the custom cue fans, You think customs are better then production cues then Prove it.
I say its a personal opinion and for those who disagree I Got a band saw.
We can just slice those babies right down the center and really take a look.
Few years ago I saw a fairly well known custom cue in a pawn shop.
After taking a closer look the cue was falling a part and warped all to shit.
There isn't one person in here would allow me to make a statement like Yes I saw one of his cues and it was $hit.
Straight up this cue had gotten hot and I would guess it was left in a car.
But not everyone would know that..
I got a ton of pictures of failed meucci cues, Doesn't prove anything.
These cues are all screwed up but hell who knows maybe my basement flooded.
Maybe I left them in my car.
So I have a band saw with a fence, just send me your cues I will do a video of cutting your cue down the center and we can put a end to all this nonsense.
Or you can have X-rays of cues.
LOL
Ahahaha.
Oh wait, you're serious
Experience based knowledge does not equate to arrogance... Quote where I have exaggerated my importance OR abilities regarding cues...
YOU sir may be looking in the mirror...
Not knocking, I'm actually curious..
What would one look for through an X-Ray or cutting down a cue to determine if it's better?
Just to keep the thread on topic- I think anyone can play with anything as long as they like the feel and can get comfortable with it. My reason for wanting a custom eventually is so I don't have 3 other people walk into the room with the same thing I'm shooting with. For me it boils down to vanity.
Or you can keep drinking the kool-aid, and believe that a guy with 5 years experience makes a cue (he's made 30 cues...but he's an expert!) as well or better than guys who have done it for 40.....
As Dan Janes said to me, "would you rather have the guy doing the laser surgery on your eyes with 3 years experience and 100 surgeries, or the guy with 40 years experience, and 40,000 surgeries?"
Your pick. I guess once you make more than 1000 cues per year, you become stupid, and forget about quality wood. Who knew?
The question wasn't which was better, but if the quality gap was closing.
Yes, I would have to say the gap is closeing The average production cues have grown in quality. With all the new custom cue makers, I would have to say the AVERAGE custom cue quality has decreased. The few top tier makers are still making great cues. It's just that the words "custom cue" have become deluted.
IMHO
Larry
Agreed Larry....
Or you can believe the one who quit and did not make a name for himself .
He couldn't even make one good enough for himself. Or not any better than a $300 import. And there was certainly not much demand for his cues .
He knows and talks to a lot of makers but did not make a name for himself.
That would be like a groupie. Worse, b/c he didn't succeed in that endeavor, he's knocking the people in that field .
Face it, if you actually made good cues and that it had international demand, you'd be singing a different tune .
X ray
X ray will not shut you guys up.
Its the nature of these topics that turn into heated arguments and it happens so much in here members are afraid to express their true feeling or knowledge because to them its not worth arguing about because nothing is going to change their personal opinion ....................................................................................
The true answer to this topic is, its all of a matter a of opinion to what cues you are comparing to one another.
And who is buying them and how much money they are willing to invest.
And how much real knowledge they have from being in allot of cue factories and custom cue shops.
There are few members who have posted in here that for one I highly respect their knowledge, and they have personally gone out of there way to educate me on how to make cues and do a finish.
I think most of everyone posting in this thread would most likely like each other if they met in person and on the pool table.
I to have a personal opinion, and personally I think my opinion is as good if not better then some that are posting in here just because I have been fixing and selling cues for a while.
I know which cues fall apart and I know the risks of stocking the wrong cues and they fall apart before they get sold.
Personally I don't think anyone is listening to what is being said in here and it seems people are looking for key words so they can disagree with anyone because that is what kind of mood they are in..
X ray will not shut you guys up.
Its the nature of these topics that turn into heated arguments and it happens so much in here members are afraid to express their true feeling or knowledge because to them its not worth arguing about because nothing is going to change their personal opinion ....................................................................................
The true answer to this topic is, its all of a matter a of opinion to what cues you are comparing to one another.
And who is buying them and how much money they are willing to invest.
And how much real knowledge they have from being in allot of cue factories and custom cue shops.
There are few members who have posted in here that for one I highly respect their knowledge, and they have personally gone out of there way to educate me on how to make cues and do a finish.
I think most of everyone posting in this thread would most likely like each other if they met in person and on the pool table.
I to have a personal opinion, and personally I think my opinion is as good if not better then some that are posting in here just because I have been fixing and selling cues for a while.
I know which cues fall apart and I know the risks of stocking the wrong cues and they fall apart before they get sold.
Personally I don't think anyone is listening to what is being said in here and it seems people are looking for key words so they can disagree with anyone because that is what kind of mood they are in..
Priceless. You think I actually made cues because I wanted to become a cuemaker. That's so cute
I made a few cues as a challenge to myself to see what it was like.
Unlike you, who seems to have built up an online identity, and bets his mortgage....on the fickle needs of the cue buying public. I work in an industry that guarantees my paycheck, and I can pay for a house, and put my kids through school. I'll gladly take the recognition I receive in the form of weekly cheques, benefits and commissions instead of being praised like Kevin Varney. Eddie Wheat is internationally known in the cuemaking world. Seems like the "good and honourable" cuemakers are the exception, not the norm.
So, I'm ok where I'm at, thanks. I'll leave the revolutionizing of the custom cue market to you. One question - between your 100 posts per day, when do you actually make a cue? Just wondering.
Joey and skins are acting like twats. The rest of us are having a good discussion. Maybe they should go talk with each other, leave the thread alone, and let's just watch the thread get back on track.
Priceless. You think I actually made cues because I wanted to become a cuemaker. That's so cute
I made a few cues as a challenge to myself to see what it was like.
Unlike you, who seems to have built up an online identity, and bets his mortgage....on the fickle needs of the cue buying public. I work in an industry that guarantees my paycheck, and I can pay for a house, and put my kids through school. I'll gladly take the recognition I receive in the form of weekly cheques, benefits and commissions instead of being praised like Kevin Varney. Eddie Wheat is internationally known in the cuemaking world. Seems like the "good and honourable" cuemakers are the exception, not the norm.
So, I'm ok where I'm at, thanks. I'll leave the revolutionizing of the custom cue market to you. One question - between your 100 posts per day, when do you actually make a cue? Just wondering.
And that made you a cue expert ?
Err, my mortgage isn't riding on my cues. Sorry.
You made a few cues and they weren't good.
Eddie Wheat is internationally known? Yeah sure.
Actually, you're the twat. You got some points from who wanted to participate. You then turn to the usual ahole that you are. Tree hugging and justifying their existence ?
Well you're entitled to your opinion. I know who worked on Earl's cues and he had cuetec shafts. Varney didn't work on Earl's cues. Varney also made statements about Allison's cues that were not correct.
As I said hit is subjective. Even players who were sponsored could not tell which cue was theirs.
But yes, I agree, any Stroud probably hits better than any Lucasi. But then again maybe not IF Taican did what Bill told them to do.
That's kind of the point here.
You have this idea that a cue holds a person back and they overcome the cue's deficiency to win. I don't agree. I think that while a cue can be made to a higher level per se it doesn't mean that it actually PERFORMS better. It might feel better to one person and not feel better to the next person.
The point is that import cues NOW are made well enough to hold up and provide the level of performance that pros can use to win championships. That's the bottom line.
I happen to have a little insight having dealt with Kelly Fisher for years when I lived in China. She would come to the Kao Kao factory and be asked to test out many variations. As Bill said they have to depend on others to tell them when a cue hit good. And they did ask many good players to do the same thing, always refining the cues to satisfy the professional's tastes. Varner, Sigel, Kelly, Mizerak, and many others came through their doors to have cues made.
And they also have been making some of Predator's cues for several years now.
They can make just about any shaft taper known. They have seasoned wood, they have treated wood, they have laminated wood. They can do any inlays, any rings, any wraps, any cores, any type of construction method known they can do it.
The point being that the make cues good enough to win championships with. Not cues that players have to fight with but instead cues that players feel comfortable with. I have seen this evolution first hand for 20 years and especially since 2001. I got to China in 2006 and by 2008 Kao Kao had spent 3 million dollars overhauling their factory to be just about what Bill described above.
I know that there is a general disdain for production cues and especially for cues made "overseas" (china). But facts are facts, the quality is all grown up when it comes to cues from China now, especially when those cues are from the top factories.