My point is that seeing aspects of trick shots like jumping and masse shots are cool pure and simple.
Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter hang-the-9
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My point is that seeing aspects of trick shots like jumping and masse shots are cool pure and simple.
Yes cool. Fun to watch. But not pool, so why have jump cues? Use the rails for kicking. That's one reason a table has rails. They're not just intended for getting shape. Should we take JohnnyT's sarcastic advice and use jump cues for 3 cushion?
You seem to have trouble catching on, but let me help you out. Back in the early 90s there were a bunch of jump cues that were developed that made it absurdly easy to execute jump shots. First we had people who jumped 'dart style' using just their shafts, which was cool and stuff, and the first time I saw that was maybe in about '92. Before long they came out with cues that were about a foot long and had no tips on them, they were just bare wood at about 15mm and you put just a little bit of chalk on the wood. Looked crazy, but you could jump about anything with them, even when the balls were just an inch or two apart. Then next was the worst of all, which was the 'gas powered' jump cues or whatever, and they were again about the length of a shaft and had a big 15mm tip made of what looked like white plastic or something but supposedly had a special gas inside. Who knows whether that was true or not or what the material was, but the point was now with one of those things you could jump a ball that was within about a half an inch (or maybe even less) from the blocker. So at that point things got a little absurd because there was virtually no snookers that you couldn't jump out of and it got to where some players were so good at it that even hooking them at all became a pointless exercise. They just pull out this thing that looks like a big stir stick and hop over the ball and you have to wonder why you bothered even playing the hook in the first place. (Howard Vickery was one player I can recall who was a master with that little cue, but there were lots of others.)
So at that point there was some outcry from fans and players alike, and as a result tours and tournament directors started waking up and implementing a rule that jump cues had to be a minimum of 40" long. I'm not sure who was first with that rule, whether it was the PBT or the Camel Tour or what, but before long it became the standard for all tournaments and it more or less remains the same today.
So that's the history, and so like I said in my original post that you had trouble understanding, knowing that history reduces the whole jump cue discussion to some simple logical questions. See if you can follow along...
Question #1: Is there a point at which jumping becomes too easy and jump cues need to be regulated? YES or NO
Now logically we'd have to think the answer to this is YES, because otherwise the 40" rule for jump cues wouldn't exist and we go back to the early 90s and the 12-inch cues with the 15mm wooden tips and the 'gas powered' jumpers and so forth. Now if that's what you want then that's a discussion we can have, but I think if you saw one of those cues in action you'd agree that they're pretty absurd.
But if it's agreed that the answer to #1 is YES then what follows is:
Question #2: Are we at that point now? YES or NO (with reasons)
And that's pretty much it.
So like I say, comparing jump cues to chalk, or to gloves, or to low-deflection shafts, or whatever, is pure and simple missing the point. It's clear that jump cues can be regulated, and the reason it's clear is because it's been done before. The question is whether we've reached that point again. I say yes.
Clear enough for you?
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I really wish they would outlaw jump cues in all pool tournaments. All jumps IMO should be made with a full length cue and a leather tip. I've seen too many balls damaged by plastic tips and I dislike the sound of the hit, as well as the ease with which jumps can be made with such tips. I know that certain plastics may be soft enough not to damage the cue ball, but having a rule allowing them would make a ban unenforcable.
Jump shots are a part of the game and a very skillfull shot with a full cue. Controlling the ball on a full ball jump shot with, a full (playing) cue and a normal tip is almost as difficult as pulling off a great masse or kick, perhaps more so for certain kinds of jumps. On the other hand I can teach any C player to jump in 5 minutes, and with decent control in a couple of hours with a specialized jump cue. Fine control takes more time, but you rarely see even pros exhibit the top level of cueball control during jumps. That's the domain of trickshot specialists. There are jump cues (like Dr. Popper) that makes it possible to jump balls only an inch or less apart, reliably (not just one in 3 or whatever). This in my opinion is not pool.
Unlike many jump shot critics I took the time to learn how to jump really well. As a C-player I taught the best player in my poolhall (top 3 in my country) how to jump after he nagged me for weeks. I spent hours on end practicing only jumps, since my poolhall was very lax with the equipment (which was run down like you wouldn't believe). I have spent lots of time on massès as well at the same hall.
As a player I believe jumping a ball should be a skilled shot. If I was a pool hall owner I'd look at it differently. Jumping full cue is so brutal on the equipment (especially when attempted by a novice), that it might be better for them to allow jumping with a jump cue only or not at all. I believe however, that the considerations to the game, not the owners should rule.
Jump shots are a part of the game and a very skillfull shot with a full cue. Controlling the ball on a full ball jump shot with, a full (playing) cue and a normal tip is almost as difficult as pulling off a great masse or kick, perhaps more so for certain kinds of jumps. On the other hand I can teach any C player to jump in 5 minutes, and with decent control in a couple of hours with a specialized jump cue. Fine control takes more time, but you rarely see even pros exhibit the top level of cueball control during jumps. That's the domain of trickshot specialists. There are jump cues (like Dr. Popper) that makes it possible to jump balls only an inch or less apart, reliably (not just one in 3 or whatever). This in my opinion is not pool.
Unlike many jump shot critics I took the time to learn how to jump really well. As a C-player I taught the best player in my poolhall (top 3 in my country) how to jump after he nagged me for weeks. I spent hours on end practicing only jumps, since my poolhall was very lax with the equipment (which was run down like you wouldn't believe). I have spent lots of time on massès as well at the same hall.
As a player I believe jumping a ball should be a skilled shot. If I was a pool hall owner I'd look at it differently. Jumping full cue is so brutal on the equipment (especially when attempted by a novice), that it might be better for them to allow jumping with a jump cue only or not at all. I believe however, that the considerations to the game, not the owners should rule.
So do you think all "full" cues are the same?
Why not ban different cues and tips? I mean if it's truly about only skill and not equipment then make everyone play with a Cuetec and the same tip, pressed to the same hardness?
Jump cues are not brutal on the equipment. The tips and materials used are not as hard as the balls. I gave jump demonstrations and lessons for several years.
As for kicking, I can teach any player to kick in five minutes as well using any number of kicking systems out there. Of course it will take time to master but the basics can be learned in five minutes.
I presume when you say you spent hours on end learning to jump you mean with a jump cue. You developed a skill to a high degree which you then passed on to a player whose overall skill was better than yours. Just like Tom Rossman teaches better players how to kick using systems every day.
Saying that jumping with a full cue takes more skill is like saying saying driving a model T takes more skill than driving a modern car. No, it simply takes more effort and depending on the cue being used may even be near impossible.
The skill lies in how well you can control the cue ball not in the limitation imposed by the equipment.
Dude, you can get action all day every day if you want to have a jump and kick shot competition with me.
I practice both and am decently proficient.
The rules of the game, where not contacting the object ball results in ball in hand, are what makes jump shots necessary to the game. Pocket billiards has been in a state of evolution for hundreds of years.
Jumping is not allowed in snooker at all, but there is no rule to contact a rail after contact and no ball-in-hand penalty either for not contacting a ball.
I can fully understand if someone wants to ban jumping. Fine. Then argue ONLY from that standpoint. But to make a general statement that jump cue use makes people not learn to kick is not only absurd it's also false. Any player that neglects any aspect of the game is a poor player.
Even if jump cues were barred there is no evidence that a poor player will be motivated to learn to kick better. Poor players are bad BECAUSE they don't have the motivation to get better.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that since the penalty for fouling is so high, the jump cue at least makes it so the other guy has to still play. I think you get more "pool" by reducing easy ball in hand runouts. I'm just playing devils advocate here. Also, this idea may vary in reasonableness based on the level of play. I actually think the jump cue may be more appropriate among pros, where the ball in hand penalty is the most severe, and simply just hitting your ball usually isn't good enough. Also the expectation for the quality of safes is the highest.
I could take jump cues or leave them. But I really think the coolness factor shouldn't be underestimated. Pool badly needs excitement, and if even the average player has access to spectacular shots...well it's something to think about.
KMRUNOUT
If we want USA Players to Win the Mosconi Cup every Year
This is all non-sense...................................
Too many rules to change to let the Americans Win.
We can probably make one rule change though.
Let's eliminate Europeans that are in the top 25 in the World.......
That way we Americans will always win.......:grin:
This is all non-sense...................................
Too many rules to change to let the Americans Win.
We can probably make one rule change though.
Let's eliminate Europeans that are in the top 25 in the World.......
That way we Americans will always win.......:grin:
A happy medium I've considered is allowing a jump cue on the first shot of an inning or on the shot after the break. As a response to a safety, I could live with the jump, but I don't think a player who hooks himself through poor position play should be permitted to play through the air.
... Let's eliminate Europeans that are in the top 25 in the World.......
That way we Americans will always win.......:grin:
Be not so sure. Using today's FargoRate ratings, that would leave all the following Europeans eligible: Souquet, Van den Berg, Boyes, Filler, Immonen, Ruiz, Melling, Kazakis, Hohmann, Ekonomopoulos, Ouschan, Chinakhov (if he is considered European), etc.
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