The Use Of Pivoting When Aiming.

[Pidge]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this. As a newcomer to the game it will bring all kinds of bad habit your way. Steering the cue, throwing your vision centre off line... And not to mention you will never be able to aim on auto pilot. It seems it is just another step in people's journey to find the golden nugget in aiming, when there really isn't one.

Aiming comes as you naturally develop into a better player. I believe a person's ability to find the correct line of aim progresses quicker than their fundamentals do. So by the time the have sound fundamentals they can aim on auto pilot. This is how I learned. Introducing pivoting and all that BS IMO means a player's ability to aim gets held back and they reach a stage where their fundamentals take over their ability to aim accurately by visualising the balls colliding... Or finding the line of aim. Then they reach a dilemma. Do they just keep at it or do they go out, waste money on an aiming system and then fall back into their old habit of not really knowing how to aim any angled shot that comes their way... Far too many go the second route in pool. Unfortunate.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Uh oh!
Floodgates!

 

[ENGLISH!]

But...

IF a truly OBJECTIVE aiming 'system' was available...

who would not want such?

Unfortunately...

 

[SpiderWeb]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this. As a newcomer to the game it will bring all kinds of bad habit your way. Steering the cue, throwing your vision centre off line... And not to mention you will never be able to aim on auto pilot. It seems it is just another step in people's journey to find the golden nugget in aiming, when there really isn't one.

Aiming comes as you naturally develop into a better player. I believe a person's ability to find the correct line of aim progresses quicker than their fundamentals do. So by the time the have sound fundamentals they can aim on auto pilot. This is how I learned. Introducing pivoting and all that BS IMO means a player's ability to aim gets held back and they reach a stage where their fundamentals take over their ability to aim accurately by visualising the balls colliding... Or finding the line of aim. Then they reach a dilemma. Do they just keep at it or do they go out, waste money on an aiming system and then fall back into their old habit of not really knowing how to aim any angled shot that comes their way... Far too many go the second route in pool. Unfortunate.

You are a stuck duck in your way of thinking because when you play one of those CTE, TOI CTC players they never miss a ball ever, so are you can do is rack!!!

 

[Pidge]

But...

IF a truly OBJECTIVE aiming 'system' was available...

who would not want such?

Unfortunately...

I don't give a crap about objective vs subjective. That has nothing to do with my post. So please, try to leave your shitstiring fingers off your keyboard as far as this thread is concerned.

 

[RichSchultz]

Pidge, was your thread a dig on me? If so, I have been playing 20+ years, so please don't patronize or condescend towards me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't give a crap about objective vs subjective. That has nothing to do with my post. So please, try to leave your shitstiring fingers off your keyboard as far as this thread is concerned.

Go talk 'BIG' to someone else.

You're like another that is a VERY BAD salesperson when you want something from someone.

You opened a thread about Pivoting when Aiming.

Where did you expect it to go?

Please see the Spider's post?

Best Wishes to You.

 

[Pidge]

Pidge, was your thread a dig on me? If so, I have been playing 20+ years, so please don't patronize or condescend towards me.

It isn't a dig towards you. Yes, I read your thread prior to my post but it brought up me thinking about the countless threads I've read on here about pivoting. I've seen it first hand completely ruin people's games. The possible side effects of pivoting do not justify doing it, unless it can improve your game at a faster rate.... Which can never be proved as you can't pivot and not pivot at the same time.

Maybe I'm from a different billiards universe. But things like pivoting to arrive at a desired aim point make things more complicated than they are...judging a line of aim is the easiest thing to do in pool. I can run thousands in 14.1 with my eyes.

Have you ever been playing with someone and been sat in the right position behind the shot to see where their tip is pointing and instantly you know they're going to miss the pot? We know they're going to miss because we can aim without pivoting. We see a line, in this case the cue and that is all we need to judge of its in or not.

 

[RichSchultz]

It works for me. That's all I need to know.

 

[Pidge]

Go talk 'BIG' to someone else.

You're like another that is a VERY BAD salesperson when you want something from someone.

You opened a thread about Pivoting when Aiming.

Where did you expect it to go?

Please see the Spider's post?

Best Wishes to You.

No.

Now you've got me wanting to know more. Please, name names Rick.

Yes, I did. The title kind of gave it away, didn't it?

Not down the pan. At least not so quick. Cheese for that.

I saw his post.

Thank you. Same to you.

 

[Pidge]

It works for me. That's all I need to know.

Ok fair enough. Can you be certain why you miss 100% of the time? Is it because you aimed wrong, did you cue badly? If you miss because you aim wrong then it isn't working.

 

[RichSchultz]

Ok fair enough. Can you be certain why you miss 100% of the time? Is it because you aimed wrong, did you cue badly? If you miss because you aim wrong then it isn't working.

I know why I miss, yes. I'm human.

 

[Straightpool_99]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this. As a newcomer to the game it will bring all kinds of bad habit your way. Steering the cue, throwing your vision centre off line... And not to mention you will never be able to aim on auto pilot. It seems it is just another step in people's journey to find the golden nugget in aiming, when there really isn't one.

Aiming comes as you naturally develop into a better player. I believe a person's ability to find the correct line of aim progresses quicker than their fundamentals do. So by the time the have sound fundamentals they can aim on auto pilot. This is how I learned. Introducing pivoting and all that BS IMO means a player's ability to aim gets held back and they reach a stage where their fundamentals take over their ability to aim accurately by visualising the balls colliding... Or finding the line of aim. Then they reach a dilemma. Do they just keep at it or do they go out, waste money on an aiming system and then fall back into their old habit of not really knowing how to aim any angled shot that comes their way... Far too many go the second route in pool. Unfortunate.

There are some different ways to get on the shot line. I mean, obviously from a snooker perspective, you step onto the shot from a distance, onto the line with your back foot, usually. But from there, there are different ways of doing things. I could trust my backfoot/cuehand alignment and sort of rotate the cue into the shot while slightly sliding forward with the bridgehand, like this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8UE0j0A21c
There is also a possibility to put the cue in the ready position up in the air, going more or less directly down and sliding forward with the cue hand.
Many subtle variations over these themes exists but there are some common elements in most of them:
I believe the slight forward slide of the bridgehand is important, as is the stepping in from a distance. This gives you a better view of the line and is an easier way to get on it, rather than just plopping down.

I do believe that the most difficult way to set up on a shot is to firmly plant the bridgehand and manually rotate the cue around this pivot point. How people can cue straight doing this, is beyond my understanding. You can probably get on the shotline fine (but I suspect a lot of practice would be needed), but I don't trust my body to do the work from a position I have reached this way.

 

[Neil]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this.
Pivot systems can make aiming a lot easier. Especially on the tough shots. They also allow one to do the same thing over and over. As a newcomer to the game it will bring all kinds of bad habit your way.
It could. But so could a lot of things if they are done wrong. But that doesn't mean that it has to. Steering the cue, throwing your vision centre off line... And not to mention you will never be able to aim on auto pilot.
If pivoting is doing any of that, you are doing it way wrong. It seems it is just another step in people's journey to find the golden nugget in aiming, when there really isn't one.
For some it is. Some are always looking for the easy way out. For most of us, it provides a consistent known way to aim.
Aiming comes as you naturally develop into a better player. I believe a person's ability to find the correct line of aim progresses quicker than their fundamentals do. So by the time the have sound fundamentals they can aim on auto pilot. This is how I learned.
Certainly true for many players. Many do not ever learn proper fundamentals. However, many still have trouble with certain shots.Introducing pivoting and all that BS IMO means a player's ability to aim gets held back and they reach a stage where their fundamentals take over their ability to aim accurately by visualising the balls colliding... Or finding the line of aim.
I don't see how you come up with that correlation.Pivot aimers don't close their eyes when they shoot. They see the collision of the balls just like anyone else does. Then they reach a dilemma. Do they just keep at it or do they go out, waste money on an aiming system and then fall back into their old habit of not really knowing how to aim any angled shot that comes their way... Far too many go the second route in pool. Unfortunate.

I don't see how you think that using a pivot aiming system prevents any of the plusses you mentioned, or causes any of the minuses you mentioned.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this. As a newcomer to the game it will bring all kinds of bad habit your way. Steering the cue, throwing your vision centre off line... And not to mention you will never be able to aim on auto pilot. It seems it is just another step in people's journey to find the golden nugget in aiming, when there really isn't one.

Aiming comes as you naturally develop into a better player. I believe a person's ability to find the correct line of aim progresses quicker than their fundamentals do. So by the time the have sound fundamentals they can aim on auto pilot. This is how I learned. Introducing pivoting and all that BS IMO means a player's ability to aim gets held back and they reach a stage where their fundamentals take over their ability to aim accurately by visualising the balls colliding... Or finding the line of aim. Then they reach a dilemma. Do they just keep at it or do they go out, waste money on an aiming system and then fall back into their old habit of not really knowing how to aim any angled shot that comes their way... Far too many go the second route in pool. Unfortunate.

Are you thinking of an air pivot, a visual pivot, pivoting after getting into the full stance on the cue ball...?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this.

Starting out as you did with a Snooker background, I can understand where you're coming from. It's the way it's taught, how you learned it, and the way your brain and eyes are trained to work.

Everything is simple steps, in and out, very controlled, and in unison.

It reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUplaATIBjQ

Nobody really deviates much from anything since the beginning of when Snooker was created and players started getting good at it. Everybody looks like a clone of each other at the table.

Pool is not snooker. It's an evolution and continues to evolve in the way it's played through open minds and creativity.

You'll never see a Snooker player doing things on the table like Bustamante or Efren. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGw8EVrWQ_E

They're pivoting all over the place, most of the time in mid stroke.

Pivoting is more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9XuJJXylw

Whether there's a non-pivot or a pivot...THEY BOTH WORK IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Are you thinking of an air pivot, a visual pivot, pivoting after getting into the full stance on the cue ball...?

Excellent question. Also is it a body pivot to alter the cue or a cue pivot itself.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

WTF is the fascination with pivoting to reach the line of aim? I've never understood this.

Weird, huh? Logic says that if you can find the line that's exactly a pivot from the aim line, then you've already found the aim line and don't need the pivot - but logic obviously doesn't apply to these systems.

I think it's a way (among several) to help disguise the fact that you're relying on your subconscious, a truth that gives pivot aimers conniptions - hence all the nonsense about "objectivity".

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Weird, huh? Logic says that if you can find the line that's exactly a pivot from the aim line, then you've already found the aim line and don't need the pivot - but logic obviously doesn't apply to these systems.

I think it's a way (among several) to help disguise the fact that you're relying on your subconscious, a truth that gives pivot aimers conniptions - hence all the nonsense about "objectivity".

pj
chgo

Is the pivot with 90/90 a subconscious action or conscious move back to a specific spot after the offset? Do you even know where the offset is at the start and where the cue is pointed or aimed prior to pivot?

Please, do tell where.

 

[Pidge]

Are you thinking of an air pivot, a visual pivot, pivoting after getting into the full stance on the cue ball...?

Good question. I was initially talking about the manual pivots such as pivoting around the bridge either with the back hand controlling the cue or a full twist of the hips to change the cues direction. But you mentioned some other kind of pivots that I find equally ridiculous. I find major faults with all of them then can potentially ruin a person's game.

Back hand fixed pivot - how do you place your vision centre? Pre pivot or post pivot? To pivot the back hand you should pivot the vision centre to keep it locked in on an accurate cue ball position. For example, I have my cue aimed at the left edge of the cue ball with my vision centre over the shaft and I pivot to centre cue ball but my vision centre remains over the left edge of the cue ball. How can I be sure I'm at centre cue ball when my vision centre is not aligned over the shot?if you get down with the vision centre over ccb and the tip at the left edge for example... I don't need to pivot... As my vision centre is spread on the correct line of aim so all I have to do is point my tip through centre cue ball. Not only this, but your back arm is not aligned straight along the shot. You end up with a chicken wing or slightly side arm. Bad for technique.

The body pivot - slightly better as the vision centre stays over the cue and so does the arm and elbow but it throws balance out of the window and each shot feels different because you are not consistent with your bodies balance. It also makes shots you are stretching for, especially on 12ft tables difficult to pivot the entire body. It screws with alignment.

The mid stroke pivot - lol... Just lol. How the hell can anyone judge how much they are pivoting mid stroke especially on hard shots.

The visual pivot - a pointless pivot....it isn't really a pivot in my eyes. Its basically your eyes selecting a line of aim that isn't right and moving that line of aim until you stumble upon a correct line of aim based on memory. Basically trial and error pivot is what it should be called. It is not repeatable.

The air pivot - very similar to the above. Systems with this in their description or requirement are basically systems that get your vision centre into a position that makes it easier to find the line of aim and let the subconscious go to work. The cue for a right hander always comes from left to right. Unless you stand with the shoulders very side on. So how does someone pivot the cue anti clockwise as a right hander? Do you start with the butt on the correct line of aim and pivot around the butt? That would be very noticeable indeed and I've never seen a right handed start with the tip past the right shoulder and pivot the cue in. Imo it is something to distract you from aiming consciously and a gimmick to let the subconscious take over.