Higher end Production Cues have No Value

[Bavafongoul]

Cortland linen was the only manually twisted linen fishing line. It was linen interwoven with strands of flax for strength whereas all the other Cuttyhunk lines, even Penn, were machine twisted. The uniformity in the diameter of the individual strands of linen and flax in Cortland is just unmatched by other linen wraps. It's because the machine operator at the Cortland plant running the equipment actually ran the individual strands of linen and flax through their fingers to make sure there wasn't any flaws, and the diameter felt consistent and uniform to their tactile feel.

Whenever the operator sensed a change in the feel of the strands which was entirely determined by feel, the operator would immediately stop the equipment and examine the strands. If any strands felt or appeared unacceptable, that section was replaced and changed. It was a tedious operation and so The Cortland Line Company was very particular and very careful in the selection of Irish flax they purchased. Cortland insisted on buying only the highest quality flax of specific varieties because the pitfalls associated with production interruptions were very costly.

Cortland acquires a sheen and shine as it ages and feels so smooth, especially when you glass burnish the wrap. Do yourself a favor and try playing with a cue with a Cortland wrap in good condition. It is just superior to any other linen wrap and it holds up really well........it's just unfortunately a lot more money.......the Cortland #9 ((white w/ green speck) in the below photo will probably cost you anywhere from $100 to $120.

Matt B.

 

[john coloccia]

I have two cues here that were re-wrapped some decades ago by an old school repair guy. They are unpressed. The linen is a bit coarser than I've seen. I don't play these cues, and haven't for decades, but I can appreciate them now. There's no way they will EVER be slick...or slippery, or anything else. I was a young lad when I got them back, and quite disappointed because I wanted to do Mosconi's slip stroke from his book.

That said, if I ever do another linen wrap, that is how I'd like it done. Very absorbent, not slippery in the slightest, and it feels like an actual grip. I honestly have to wonder how the whole double pressed, slick as snot, linen wrap came to be in the first place. The ones I described are far more functional as a grip.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Shooter08]

You may have Cortland Dacron if it is coarse.

http://cuezilla.com/week-11-george-balabushka-cue-for-ray-martin/

 

[john coloccia]

You may have Cortland Dacron if it is coarse.

http://cuezilla.com/week-11-george-balabushka-cue-for-ray-martin/

No, it's definitely linen. When you first pick it up, it feels slightly slick, but as soon as your hand get the slightest bit of moisture on it (as always happens are you're playing) it feels just right. It becomes about as tacky as leather, but absorbent.

He may have even asked me at the time if I wanted it pressed, and I probably just said no because I was young and stupid!

If I remember, I'll try to post a picture. It's really very unique compared to what you see these days, but it's also incredibly functional.

 

[Bavafongoul]

John,

Take your cue butt, lay it flat on a towel, and use a round smooth glass object, like a beer stein/mug or any smooth round glass object.

Start with short strokes and press hard rubbing the wrap vigorously and rotate the wrap as you work the different portions of the wrap. Gradually increase the size of the wrap area/portion you are burnishing with the round glass object. Again, press hard and rub the wrap very fast........you should gradually press the wrap flat once again and I cannot offer any reason why your Cortland is in such poor shape.

I can tell you this.......Cortland hasn't been made for decades and sometimes the quality you get might be poor. It happened to me. Earlier I wrote that I was able to get some #12 thanks to jazznpool. Well, the Cortland I purchased looked good for the initial 5-7 yards but when my cue-maker wrapped it on my cue, the quality was really poor. And I searched for 2 years trying to locate some Cortland #12 and when I dd find some, the quality was terrible and I was out the time and money with nothing to show for it......so my cue-maker installed Cortland #9 on my cue since I couldn't furnish any acceptable condition #12.

I am not saying your cues have a Cortland wrap like the type I bought. I am saying that after decades of being in storage, the Cortland you get had better have been properly stored, If it isn't, the quality suffers and in fact can become unusable like the Cortland I had sent to Jerry Rauenzahn for my last cue. He's making me another cue right now which will use Cortland Linen #9..........I just love the stuff as my cue wrap.........I regret having to use leather for my Owen cue underway but #9 just isn't the right match for the cue design's colors.

Matt B.

 

[Chopdoc]

Cortland linen was the only manually twisted linen fishing line. It was linen interwoven with strands of flax for strength whereas all the other Cuttyhunk lines, even Penn, were machine twisted. The uniformity in the diameter of the individual strands of linen and flax in Cortland is just unmatched by other linen wraps. It's because the machine operator at the Cortland plant running the equipment actually ran the individual strands of linen and flax through their fingers to make sure there wasn't any flaws, and the diameter felt consistent and uniform to their tactile feel.

Whenever the operator sensed a change in the feel of the strands which was entirely determined by feel, the operator would immediately stop the equipment and examine the strands. If any strands felt or appeared unacceptable, that section was replaced and changed. It was a tedious operation and so The Cortland Line Company was very particular and very careful in the selection of Irish flax they purchased. Cortland insisted on buying only the highest quality flax of specific varieties because the pitfalls associated with production interruptions were very costly.

Cortland acquires a sheen and shine as it ages and feels so smooth, especially when you glass burnish the wrap. Do yourself a favor and try playing with a cue with a Cortland wrap in good condition. It is just superior to any other linen wrap and it holds up really well........it's just unfortunately a lot more money.......the Cortland #9 ((white w/ green speck) in the below photo will probably cost you anywhere from $100 to $120.

Matt B.

I'm not sure that makes sense to me. Linen is flax.

It seems what you said is like saying you put iron into iron to make iron.

A serious effort at reproducing it was made. The lack of machinery to do the specific cable wind was the limitation. I believe you participated in that discussion here several years ago.

Indeed Cortland did use the highest grade of flax to make the linen cord, which is what was used to make the fishing line. The higher grades are still used today to make linen cord today. Lower grades are used to make twine.

Incidentally, two of my cues are wrapped in Cortland. One about forty years old, and the other about thirty-five, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. And new Cortland wouldn't feel anything like it. It took a lot of use for those wraps to get the way they are.

I was doing leather saddle stitching and experimented with hemp cord instead of cotton. I found some very high grade hemp cord that has almost the exact thickness of the linens we use. It is nothing like the linen twine people are used to seeing and feeling, which is rough. It is very nice stuff. I am planning to wrap a cue or two with it and press it as an experiment. It is solid black. Should be interesting.


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[cfrandy]

I think I could safely say that less than 1% of cue buyers actually order a custom cue made to their specs. With that said, ALL cues are "production" cues. ALL cue builders have dedicated equipment used in the "production" of cues. You don't think John Davis uses "production" methods in the making of his blanks? The difference is, some companies make more than one cue with the same specs. What's so bad about that? It does NOT lessen the quality of the cue! If Joel Hercek made two cues exactly alike with the same specs, would they now be "production" cues of perceived lessen quality? Oh, that's right Joel is a superb cue builder therefore his cues could never be anything but custom. Is Runde a superb cue builder? So the question is...if you take a Schon or Adam cue and change it's original specs (say adding a leather wrap) is it now a custom cue? I say yes, because now it may be one-of-a-kind with the specs YOU desire! REMEMBER a "production" cue can be just as high quality as any "custom" cue. In some cases, even higher!
Here's a neat video on Adam cue making... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MO4eAoKzZM As you will see, there is a lot of "hand" tooling in making of a "production" cue!

 

[KRJ]

I think I could safely say that less than 1% of cue buyers actually order a custom cue made to their specs. With that said, ALL cues are "production" cues. ALL cue builders have dedicated equipment used in the "production" of cues. You don't think John Davis uses "production" methods in the making of his blanks? The difference is, some companies make more than one cue with the same specs. What's so bad about that? It does NOT lessen the quality of the cue! If Joel Hercek made two cues exactly alike with the same specs, would they now be "production" cues of perceived lessen quality? Oh, that's right Joel is a superb cue builder therefore his cues could never be anything but custom. Is Runde a superb cue builder? So the question is...if you take a Schon or Adam cue and change it's original specs (say adding a leather wrap) is it now a custom cue? I say yes, because now it may be one-of-a-kind with the specs YOU desire! REMEMBER a "production" cue can be just as high quality as any "custom" cue. In some cases, even higher!
Here's a neat video on Adam cue making... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MO4eAoKzZM As you will see, there is a lot of "hand" tooling in making of a "production" cue!

ahhh, you're on the internet. Facts have no business being here

 

[Bertram9B]

Exactly, Shane uses a "beat up old Cuetec" in his own words, and you should see his case. It is a soft zipper case that he slings over his shoulder. This is an example of a guy who doesn't need bells and whistles, he's just pure talent. No cue is going to make you a better billiards player. Just like no golf club will make you a good golfer. These "custom" companies are no longer custom. A company that is looking at all the parts you need, sitting directly on the shelf not five feet away from the phone, telling you that they can't put them together the way you want... simply because they are getting greedy, lazy and don't care about the customer any more. Also, operation of the company is turned over to people who seldom know much about billiards and can't answer your questions over the phone like the guy making the cues can. If a cue company does not want to make a cue to your specs, they are simply no longer a custom company. They are shifting to production because they refuse to expand the personnel enough to cover the custom orders and the production orders and they don't have to deal with the problems associated with individual expectations of the final custom product. For the company costs, many shift to CNC (Computer Numeric Control) machines which are very expensive to buy so they raise their prices and put themselves out of business. The old machines that Gus and Barry used are seldom used any more with the production manufacturers and the custom guys don't want to build any more because these machines make "custom" cues very well and can turn out cues quicker. They have to keep operating them because time is money when you have a CNC machine in the shop. This means making a design over and over rather than one custom at a time, which takes longer to swap between designs. We all know quality here and not many want to hold a CNC production cue that might have been made by someone who doesn't even play. I'm new here but I'm not new to this business model where the company stops tailored orders and makes the same models all day long to sit on the shelf and then tells the customer, nope we only sell whats in the catalog because now they can't sell all the production cues in stock. I'd much rather they make no production cues and only custom orders. They would stay just as busy and more people would be happy.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

The future is Chinese production cues.
They will make everything better eventually.
And you will be able to buy it for cheap. LOL

 

[cj609]

I have a Schon , 2 actually. I also have a rear screw in extention for them that was made for me by an AZ member( blokid). All is good.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk

 

[Icon of Sin]

I am an owner of no production cues. I have all custom cues ranging from sneakies up to high ends. With that being said, I can completely understand the desire to want a high end production cue. Some people really like a particular company, other people like getting limited edition cues made from certain companies (ie Mcdermott and the cues of the month/year).

What most people in pool and specifically the cue collecting world dont understand is that a person should buy want he wants first, not want he thinks others would want to have or say he should buy.

If Joey Buyacue has a $1200 and likes Mika's model Mezz cue more then any cue out there or that he could conceive, who are you to tell him he shouldnt buy it?

 

[MitchAlsup]

I respect custom cue builders who build what they want and have the confidence it will sell.

it is NOT a custom cue if the cue gets built before you order it.
It may be::
well made,
carefully crafted,
expertly assembled,
with loving care;
but it is NOT custom.

 

[deanoc]

Baloney
where do you guys get these off the wall ideas

Laurie just built me 2 cues and then called me
are they not custom because she didn't tell me beforehand

or Gus,because i asked him to make me a cue and he said
I make you a nice cue with no input from me

so much worthless baloney

 

[ceebee]

I thought if a Cue Maker makes a one off Cue, that it was a Custom Cue. Actually if a production cue maker makes 100 cues, but puts a bird's eye points in the forearm, in lieu of the normal walnut, that becomes a custom cue... We all have a nose & an opinion...

 

[Bavafongoul]

I had two customs completed this past May and one cue weighs 18.5 ounces and the other weighs 18.5 ounces. I requested 18.5 ounce weight from both cue-makers using the same size shafts and requested weight of 4.0 ozs or heavier. Both cues have flat faced ivory joints with 3/8x10 pins.....one leather wrap & one Cortland and one has a ivory butt cap.

One cue-maker completed the build using an A-bolt and two 1/4 ounce weigh bolts placed 2 inches apart in the sleeve. The other cue-maker did not use any metal whatsoever other than the cue thread itself and hit the target weight exactly.

Both cues use fancy designs, especially one in particular with many more inlays than the other cue, yet both cues were perfect. In order to complete these cues. both cue-makers had to pay very close attention to the material selection, especially wood. The final crafting of the cue had to fulfill all my requirements......14.5 oz. butt, 4.0 oz. shafts or heavier, flat faced joint, etc.There are so many variables that had to be considered very precisely in order to meet my cue specs.

There isn't any production cue company that would undertake this type of build or work closely with you during the cue build. I readily concede I am fastidious in my approach to cues but I know exactly what I want but I convey all of this beforehand. The cue-maker can accept the assignment, turn it down or persuade me that something else is worth considering. But make no mistakes, this is my cue so I always have the final say on how the design should look but I'm open to advice.

That's what made working with Bob Owen and Jerry Rauenzahn so rewarding in so many respects. Terrific gentlemen to deal with, appealing prices and workmanship that competes with any cue-maker. Both are accommodating and my designs are not easy to tackle........here's the initial drawing I sent to Bob Owen for the first cue he made for me in 2014........I also added a link to my thread in the Cue Gallery for the two cues recently completed this past Memorial Day. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=436475

Folks, there minimal comparison with production cues aside from both come in two sections that require assembly. More seriously, a production cue gets a piece of metal stuck up its ass to make target weight or else the cue-maker matches a lighter weight shaft to the cue butt to hit the target. You wind up with shafts that play different or else a perceived different balance to the cue butt, etc.

Let's face it......it's not the bow or the arrow......it's the archer that makes the shot.....same is true for pool players......you can play as well with production cues as any custom but the feel and sensation can and often is distinctly different..........life teaches us you get what you pay for in the long run.


Matt B.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Just wanted to take a few minutes and express some strong opinions, sling a few insults and speak my mind about any production cue, and yes this means you too Schon, that sells for over $500 beans.

Why would anyone pay over $500 for any production cue?

I think there are two reasons: I have to get a cue right now and not one minute later, and: I am a confused member of the advertising generation and I have been convinced to over pay for a cue, a common cue, even if only a few are made - because they are all the same.

Are we all the same?

I called Schon one day and asked them if they would build me a cue. One of the features I like on my cue is a screw in extension. I was told, "But we don't make our cues with screw in extensions.'

Does that sound like a custom cue maker to you?

Now don't get me wrong .. if you want to spend 2 or 3 hundred you need to find a production cue that will best suite your desires. But for 7 or 8 hundred you can have a cue made to your specifications from many terrific cue smiths right here in the Great USA.

And .... you can get the weight, balance. shaft, joint and exact dimensions that YOU desire !! Yeah - that's what I'm talking about Willis!

Upper end production cues have priced themselves out of the cue market as far as I am concerned - they only sell today because of the way these manufactures baffle and bullshit the unsuspecting, lesser experienced player with powerful words like - Monster - HIt's like a freight train - Lights out, and you all have heard the rest.

Talk to a cue maker and you can speak in real terms about the attributes of a cue to be made to your specifications and become YOUR CUE. One that plays the way YOU think a cue should.

That's all I have for now.

Always remember that when in doubt raise the stakes and play another set.

Good rolls.

Many reasons to buy an expensive production cue:

1. Consistent hit. A predator cue or a Mezz cue (to name two examples) will have very consistent hits from one cue to the next. That means that if you try a P3 predator, there's a good chance the P3 you buy will hit pretty much the same. Maybe you bought a cheap version, liked the hit, but want something flashier. Custom cues can be hit or miss.

2. Some of the production cues have advanced weight control systems, that allow you to fine tune the balance. They may not hit quite as sweet as a full splice, but balance is very important. To some people it might be worth the tradeoff. Be realistic here..You may request a certain balance point to a cuemaker, but for under 1 k, it's very unlikely to be fine tuned to your taste, unless you allready know EXACTLY what you want, even then it may feel different in your hand than you imagined. With these production cues, you can use trial and error. Also if your preferences change (happened to me), you can tune the cue as you wish.

3. You want something that looks good. Who wants an expensive sneaky pete that looks like it came straight off the wall? Only a hustler would want that or maybe someone living in a high crime area. These days, these cues fool no real players, though. I think, besides looks, the biggest drawback of cues like that, is that people pick them up, thinking they're housecues. That may not sound so bad, but it's actually a major nuisance. You have to literally watch your cue every second, some places, and the people taking them are not thieves, but regular people who don't know any better. A cue with a white joint /metal and nice looks, usually gets left alone by all but the most clueless.

4. They come with performance shafts. Many people play with ld shafts on their custom cues (what a waste). If you're doing that, might as well buy a production with the shafts included. I don't get why people buy customs when they are going to discard the actual "business end" of it? As far as I'm concerned it's no longer a custom. It's like having a Ferrari modified to use the engine and suspension of an 80's Ford Fiesta. Not exactly a Ferrari anymore, is it? If you want a Ford Fiesta, might as well buy one, instead of having to buy a Ford and a Ferrari and wreck them both.

5. Not all people care about custom cuemakers. 99% of the poolplayers I know couldn't name 3 custom cuemakers to save their lives. They'd probably all know about Balabushka, but that's about it. For these people, a production cue, is the highest level of cue they know about, so that is what they desire.


Hannibal Lecter: First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?

Clarice Starling: He kills women...

Hannibal Lecter: No. That is incidental. What is the first and principal thing he does? What needs does he serve by killing?

Clarice Starling: Anger, um, social acceptance, and, huh, sexual frustrations, sir...

Hannibal Lecter: No! He covets. That is his nature. And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.

Clarice Starling: No. We just...

Hannibal Lecter: No. We begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?

Most people have hardly even seen a custom cue. They see production cues, because that's what their friends at league have. They want to outdo their friends by having the fanciest one. Sad but true.

 

[onepocketron]

Most cues, even high end customs lose value, they do appreciate, but depreciate. Granted there are some that do not, but that is the exception, not the rule. If you look at most of the Pros, they do not use high end custom cues, enough said.

 

[TheCutShot]

["I called Schon one day and asked them if they would build me a cue. One of the features I like on my cue is a screw in extension. I was told, "But we don't make our cues with screw in extensions."]

["Does that sound like a custom cue maker to you?"]

I found Schon Cues and Evan Clark to be very accommodating when I had them to make a custom model STL-15 for me back in 2000. I spoke at length on the phone with Evan about what I wanted in the cue, and at every stage of the process he would send me several photos of the work in progress. I was even given the choice of which blank I wanted him to use to make the forearm! I was also able to get a Leather wrap of my choice on it, and this was back before Schon offered Leather wraps on a regular basis. And the real kicker is, that I wasn't asked to pay a Dime for it up front! I offered to put down half of the cost up front but Evan said not to worry about it. I wound up paying the full price for the Cue on Delivery!

The photos below are the actual photos that Evan sent me of my custom STL-!5, it was either finished and ready to ship or almost finished at the time of these photos.

 

[TheCutShot]

Predator Cues

This is going to sound like I have a real axe to grind with Predator, when actually I don't, I have 2 of their Cues right now An LE-III and an SP8RJ.

Talking about "high end production cues having no value", you have to mention 'Predator', they seem to have reached a point where they are going to price themselves right out of business, every time a new Special, Limited, Blak, or Ikon models come out the price is significantly higher than previous models and the designs are IMO inferior to the older models. If you wanted to resale one of their Cues you certainly would not be able to get the price you paid for it (unless you can find a real sucker, or someone that just has to have it right now)! Their Shafts are great, but everything else about Predator seems like a Marketing Gimmick to me! I can see the point of their Shaft & C4 technology but I still worry about taking one piece of wood & cutting it into pieces then gluing it back together, more care has to be taken with it than a regular shaft made of a solid piece of wood. I don't even know what to say about their weight system (Marketing) I guess some people would really like to be able to adjust the weight by 1/8 of an ounce at a time. (pick a weight you like and stick to it)(every time you change the weight you change the balance too)

Now my Predator SP8RJ I absolutely Love, the combination of the True Splice Butt & the 314 II Shaft make it a fantastic hitting & playing Cue, & the sharp hand cut 8 points make for a simple but elegant design. My LE-III is #250 of 300 I have no Idea what it's worth today but I doubt I could get back the $450 - $500 that I paid for it if I ever wanted to sell it.