What Type of Cueist Are You & Why Do You Think Your Way is Best?

[greyghost]

For me: It depends on the shot.

On shots where I don't drop my elbow, I feel like I'm pulling the cue.

On shots where I do drop my elbow, I feel like I'm pushing the cue.

On certain shots where I release the cue and let it slide through my grip hand through impact, I feel like I'm throwing the cue.

Tap tap tap


Fran.....what are your thoughts on when you said when elbow droppiing (piston related) when you feel like your pushing the cue......is that the feeling durring the ENTIRE stroke, or does that feeling of push occurr closer to the actual tip contact and "follow through" of the CB?

or is your feeling description for that more smootly building up to that "push" as your refering to just like ones stroke speed starts at 0 and builds up to "X" at say the bottom of the bell curve on the pendulum stroke?

regards,
Keebie

 

[FranCrimi]

Tap tap tap


Fran.....what are your thoughts on when you said when elbow droppiing (piston related) when you feel like your pushing the cue......is that the feeling durring the ENTIRE stroke, or does that feeling of push occurr closer to the actual tip contact and "follow through" of the CB?

or is your feeling description for that more smootly building up to that "push" as your refering to just like ones stroke speed starts at 0 and builds up to "X" at say the bottom of the bell curve on the pendulum stroke?

regards,
Keebie

Great question, Keebie!

For me, it feels like a push once my elbow starts to drop, which in my case, is prior to contact. The pushing feeling continues until my arm stops.

 

[Drop The Rock]

ED......what your calling out, could be true via some instructors. I will say this, that the coaches that I associate with can all show you and teach you diff types of stroke, and have seen them perform diff ones as well. There are the SPF guys in the PBIA group as well that say, OBVOUSLY.....teach a PAUSE that occurs b/t the backswring and the actual final forward delivery to shoot the ball....that pause is taught to be "accentuated" during practice just to help break particular habits, but it doesn't mean that at first if your "holding" the pause fo 1+ seconds, thats not going or supposed to be your natural forever "hold" length on that pause......it is to teach to not be so "jerky" so there is a smooth transition.

During a fundamentals class you will learn a fundamental basic stroke and b uild things around it......justbecause some only choose to read the first chapter of a book doesn't mean they are qualifiied to criticize or quantify the contents of the entire book.....

i have personally seen plenty of coaches/instructors/players that all say adhere to a standard operating stroke for the standard typiical shot.....

FOR EXAMPLE......

most know I get in alignement a la "snooker" style.....more square with shot.....

if i have to jack up to jump or play some masse orr circus shots....or if i'm breaking a la' hillbilly and spearing through with a leg kick and such.....BOTH of those REQUIRE a more typcal SIDEWAYS stance with the body in relation to the cuestick....meaning the chest is more parallel to the cuestick/shotline as opposed to perpendicular with it.

WHY? becuase the body aint made like that, its encroaching and its not mechanically sound, plus it feels completely retarted.

Try it some time.....standcompletely square with a shot.....jack up high.....let me know how amazingly......BAD that feels lol

point is ricknado......you dont teach beginners and such the whole got dam world and confuse the living shit out of them for starters. I wont sit there and show a beginner for any amount of money some crazy top class trick shot circus stroking english, or how to shoot some 6 railer.........orhow to hold and bend the CB so you can go 2 rails back in your hole with the ball on the spot going LR/SR..........its too much rick....one step at a time. Some students get "held back" just like parents do with kids in school, so they can better learn material b/f continuing to the next part of process or step.


Some students can handle a 12hrs worth of info in a day and roll with it.....some cant barely handle 10 minutes......

and your sitting there making black and white comments, when the GREY is just as broad an possibly in greater quantity in particular niches of this game.

and dont you try and come from outside my perpherial.....with that that comment by trying to spin that to mean that I'm trying to say Randy, Scott and others are somehow wrong or not telling the truth, or the whole truth....if some piece of infor is held back from one of their students, or even one of mine......ITS FOR EXTREMELY GOOD REASONS AND IN THEIR BEST INTEREST..

this does not mean that tthe info will be forever more unavailable, just that not just yet.....you wouldn't teach a kid to break down mathmatical matrixes before they learn to add/sub/div/mul.....

then again.....the way you come off at times, maybe ya would??????

Information can not be mass dumped on someone and expecting them to just retain all that.

Most students I have i prefer to work with on a sort of set schedule....like weekly checkups and such....we go over a couple things.....they go on their own and workout with new info.....come back later and chase the dragon some more with me.....seen 4speeds put in the work and 1.5 years later be overall points champ and league MVP rated at a 9 in the 9 ball......thats pretty dog gone strong, thats how that particular student of mine went through his paces.....and worked his butt off, was very very hungry.

There is another here.....that was a friend of that samefella.....he's been drinking the punch.....other day someone said "man that kids priimed, he may be jumping to ligt speed soon, he just suddenly increased like crazy past 6 months"

I said "you say that like your surprised, I'm not.....the boy came to me, wanting to do what his friend accomplished, I expected this and I'm wondering when he's going to actually be serious"

wait wait Keeb......"so you dont think he's being serious rirght now"

i laughed and went home......i think that person who asked those couple questions is still head scratching......hopefully they will be intrigued of ongoings around them to come expand their minds.

This games all about YOU......nothing else.



-GreyGhost

If you are ever in Houston I'd love to book a lesson or two!

Whats been said in the above is the EXACT mentality an instructor should take with their students. Too much knowledge is dangerous, especially in a game that is so mental. I suffer from a problem of thinking my elbow is crooked or that there is something wrong with my stroke when there isn't. This is because an instructor tried to change my elbow position and a couple other things. In the scheme of things my elbow used to be outwards, then inwards, and now its pretty straight.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ce

ED......what your calling out, could be true via some instructors. I will say this, that the coaches that I associate with can all show you and teach you diff types of stroke, and have seen them perform diff ones as well. There are the SPF guys in the PBIA group as well that say, OBVOUSLY.....teach a PAUSE that occurs b/t the backswring and the actual final forward delivery to shoot the ball....that pause is taught to be "accentuated" during practice just to help break particular habits, but it doesn't mean that at first if your "holding" the pause fo 1+ seconds, thats not going or supposed to be your natural forever "hold" length on that pause......it is to teach to not be so "jerky" so there is a smooth transition.

During a fundamentals class you will learn a fundamental basic stroke and b uild things around it......justbecause some only choose to read the first chapter of a book doesn't mean they are qualifiied to criticize or quantify the contents of the entire book.....

i have personally seen plenty of coaches/instructors/players that all say adhere to a standard operating stroke for the standard typiical shot.....

FOR EXAMPLE......

most know I get in alignement a la "snooker" style.....more square with shot.....

if i have to jack up to jump or play some masse orr circus shots....or if i'm breaking a la' hillbilly and spearing through with a leg kick and such.....BOTH of those REQUIRE a more typcal SIDEWAYS stance with the body in relation to the cuestick....meaning the chest is more parallel to the cuestick/shotline as opposed to perpendicular with it.

WHY? becuase the body aint made like that, its encroaching and its not mechanically sound, plus it feels completely retarted.

Try it some time.....standcompletely square with a shot.....jack up high.....let me know how amazingly......BAD that feels lol

point is ricknado......you dont teach beginners and such the whole got dam world and confuse the living shit out of them for starters. I wont sit there and show a beginner for any amount of money some crazy top class trick shot circus stroking english, or how to shoot some 6 railer.........orhow to hold and bend the CB so you can go 2 rails back in your hole with the ball on the spot going LR/SR..........its too much rick....one step at a time. Some students get "held back" just like parents do with kids in school, so they can better learn material b/f continuing to the next part of process or step.


Some students can handle a 12hrs worth of info in a day and roll with it.....some cant barely handle 10 minutes......

and your sitting there making black and white comments, when the GREY is just as broad an possibly in greater quantity in particular niches of this game.

and dont you try and come from outside my perpherial.....with that that comment by trying to spin that to mean that I'm trying to say Randy, Scott and others are somehow wrong or not telling the truth, or the whole truth....if some piece of infor is held back from one of their students, or even one of mine......ITS FOR EXTREMELY GOOD REASONS AND IN THEIR BEST INTEREST..

this does not mean that tthe info will be forever more unavailable, just that not just yet.....you wouldn't teach a kid to break down mathmatical matrixes before they learn to add/sub/div/mul.....

then again.....the way you come off at times, maybe ya would??????

Information can not be mass dumped on someone and expecting them to just retain all that.

Most students I have i prefer to work with on a sort of set schedule....like weekly checkups and such....we go over a couple things.....they go on their own and workout with new info.....come back later and chase the dragon some more with me.....seen 4speeds put in the work and 1.5 years later be overall points champ and league MVP rated at a 9 in the 9 ball......thats pretty dog gone strong, thats how that particular student of mine went through his paces.....and worked his butt off, was very very hungry.

There is another here.....that was a friend of that samefella.....he's been drinking the punch.....other day someone said "man that kids priimed, he may be jumping to ligt speed soon, he just suddenly increased like crazy past 6 months"

I said "you say that like your surprised, I'm not.....the boy came to me, wanting to do what his friend accomplished, I expected this and I'm wondering when he's going to actually be serious"

wait wait Keeb......"so you dont think he's being serious rirght now"

i laughed and went home......i think that person who asked those couple questions is still head scratching......hopefully they will be intrigued of ongoings around them to come expand their minds.

This games all about YOU......nothing else.



-GreyGhost

What does any of your post here have to do with the different types of cueing actions? It seems to me that your tone as changed & perhaps it is because you've had some communication with someone.

One of CJ Wiley's students on Facebook posted that he learned more in just TWO(2) lessons with CJ than he has in more than 20 years of taking lessons & when he paid attention & checked the pro players... everyone of them was doing the exact same things that CJ had taught him.

He also relayed how some instructors always want you coming back for that next piece or the refresher but never give the likes of what CJ did in just two lessons. They are like driving range golf instructors. If one teaches someone to actually play golf they will not be back for another paid lesson in 3 or 4 weeks.

You or any other instructor should not decide what type of cueing action anyone should be using.

Each individual should do their homework & make THAT DECISION for themselves.

Just food for thought for some.

One's Game certainly should be about them & what THEY want to learn to do & not what someone else decides might be best for them. Each individual should be responsible for their own game.

 

[Straightpool_99]

What does any of your post here have to do with the different types of curing actions? It seems to me that your tone as changed & perhaps it is because you've had some communication with someone.

One of CJ Wiley's students on Facebook posted that he learned more in just TWO(2) lessons with CJ than he has in more than 20 years of taking lessons & when he paid attention & checked the pro players... everyone of them was doing the exact same things that CJ had taught him.
Great. CJ did have some unique insights.
He also relayed how some instructors always want you coming back for that next piece or the refresher but never give the likes of what CJ did in just two lessons. They are like driving range golf instructors. If one teaches someone to actually play golf they will not be back for another paid lesson in 3 weeks.
I doubt anyone could make a living teaching people the wrong things. Instructors live by words of mouth, and it's not a big money living even if you're decent.
You or any instructor should not decide what type of cueing action anyone should be using.
Why would you see an instructor, then? The whole idea of getting instruction is to get people to help change what you are doing, in order to improve your game. If you don't trust an instructors way of teaching, you should not seek his or her advice in the first place.
Each individual should do their homework & make THAT DECISION for themselves.
If the instructor knows what he is doing, there is a minimum of trust on the students part that is needed. Changing cue actions and fundamentals takes time, so you will not always know instantly if it's right for you or not (but sometimes you will).
Just food for thought for some.

One's Game certainly should be about them & what THEY want to learn to do & not what someone else decides might be best for them.

I figured this whole post was an attempt at trolling the SPF people, calling them out. I'll give this thread one more page until it turns into an ugly argument. That is what you want, and that is what you'll probably get get. By now, everyone should know what you are doing..It sure took me long enough to find out, but I see now. Oh, and regarding your question: What type of cueist am I? I use a snooker style delivery with some elbow drop on some shots. Am I sure it's the best thing? I've tried pretty much every other technique out there. I tried to copy Ronnie's stroke, since he's the best at what he does, and because it makes sense to me.

 

[Neil]

I figured this whole post was an attempt at trolling the SPF people, calling them out. I'll give this thread one more page until it turns into an ugly argument. That is what you want, and that is what you'll probably get get. By now, everyone should know what you are doing..It sure took me long enough to find out, but I see now. Oh, and regarding your question: What type of cueist am I? I use a snooker style delivery with some elbow drop on some shots. Am I sure it's the best thing? I've tried pretty much every other technique out there. I tried to copy Ronnie's stroke, since he's the best at what he does, and because it makes sense to me.

I'm surprised you didn't see it right away! As to the instructors Rick mentioned in regards to CJ's students, what Rick conveniently keeps leaving out, is that the guy said "pro instructors", most likely meaning professional players that also were doing some teaching. It easily could have been nothing more than one of the exibitions that some pros do some times and do a little teaching in them. We don't know, as it was never clarified. But, Rick has to reapeatedly use that poor, twisted, example in his attempt to run down actual instructors that he doesn't like.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I figured this whole post was an attempt at trolling the SPF people, calling them out. I'll give this thread one more page until it turns into an ugly argument. That is what you want, and that is what you'll probably get get. By now, everyone should know what you are doing..It sure took me long enough to find out, but I see now. Oh, and regarding your question: What type of cueist am I? I use a snooker style delivery with some elbow drop on some shots. Am I sure it's the best thing? I've tried pretty much every other technique out there. I tried to copy Ronnie's stroke, since he's the best at what he does, and because it makes sense to me.

Well Sir,

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I am sorry you seem to see things the way that you do.

If I go to a golf instructor & tell them that I want to learn to swing like Ben Hogan, I do not want a golf instructor telling me, 'No, that is not what you want to do. I doubt that you could do it anyway. What you want to do is this more simple no wrist golf swing that I can easily teach you.".

That is not what I or anyone should want, IMO.

I would want that instructor to say "Okay, I can teach you to swing LIKE Ben Hogan did" or I want them to say, "Well Sir, I don't teach that type of swing.". I do not want THEM to decide what TYPE of cue stroke I am to use.

I hope that gives you a better perspective of from where I'm coming.

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[Tony_in_MD]

True teaching is a two way street, options given, and a course of action taken based on mutual agreement. At least that is how I do it.

It is not black or white as some suggest. There are many shades of grey, much like my hair.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The man said professional instruction for 20 plus years. A professional instructor is one being paid to give instruction. He did not say pro players but there is a good chance that in 20 plus years he may have taken some lessons from Professional Players but he did NOT say 20 plus years of taking lessons from Pro PLAYERS.

I am NOT the ONE trying to twist or distort anything.

As usual it is another individual that is always trying to twist & distort 'everything'.

This thread started on one topic & it is OTHERS, not me, that have taken it to another topic.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

But you sure can fan the flames.

I'm outta here as I see another train wreck coming.

The man said professional instruction for 20 plus years. A professional instructor is one being paid to give instruction. He did not say pro players but there is a good chance that in 20 plus years he may have taken some lessons from Professional Players but he did NOT say 20 plus years of taking lessons from Pro PLAYERS.

I am NOT the ONE trying to twist or distort anything.

As usual is another individual that is always trying to twist & distort 'everything'.

This thread stared on one topic & is OTHERS, not me, that have taken to another topic.

 

[ENGLISH!]

But you sure can fan the flames.

I'm outta here as I see another train wreck coming.

The truth is the truth no matter how much you may not like it.

I did not turn this thread in another direction & I am NOT the ONE trying to twist & distort matters.

AZB was nearly completely void of that they type of activity for about 3 months.

 

[Neil]

The truth is the truth no matter how much you may not like it.

I did not turn this thread in another direction & I am NOT the ONE trying to twist & distort matters.

AZB was nearly completely void of that they type of activity for about 3 months.

Do you really think anyone believes that? After so many told you to stop posting for the last three months?

 

[HawaiianEye]

FWIW, I've NEVER "thrown" my cue, either while playing or afterward.

I "stroke" with my cue and have what I would consider a "firmer" grip than what most people on here seem to have or prefer.

There is no "best" way of doing it. You do what WORKS for YOU.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Allen, will you stop horsing around?

we havin' a serious pool discussion here......

Horsing around can be serious pool, especially if everyone is wearing guns!


\

From Robert Byrne's SBoP&B.

 

[ENGLISH!]

FWIW, I've NEVER "thrown" my cue, either while playing or afterward.

I "stroke" with my cue and have what I would consider a "firmer" grip than what most people on here seem to have or prefer.

There is no "best" way of doing it. You do what WORKS for YOU.

Yes, that's the bottom line...

But if one takes a lesson from one instructor & they push a certain method & one then believes that that method must be the best method because a paid instructor sort of suggested such then that individual may never look any further or into other methods & may 'never' find what works 'best'...

for THEM.

The title asked "Why do you THINK your way is best?"

This was a food for thought thread & to make the point that there is more than one way, some better than others & some perhaps not.

But as you say the one that works best for any individual is the one that is best for THEM.

It may not be what is best for You or me.

Best Wishes.

 

[Neil]

Yes, that's the bottom line...

But if one takes a lesson from one instructor & they push a certain method & one then believes that that method must be the best method because a paid instructor sort of suggested such then that individual may never look any further or into other methods & may 'never' find what works 'best'...

for THEM.

The title asked "Why do you THINK your way is best?"

This was a food for thought thread & to make the point that there is more than one way, some better than others & some perhaps not.

But as you say the one that works best for any individual is the one that is best for THEM.

It may not be what is best for You or me.

Best Wishes.

So, what exactly are you saying here? That people should not go to CJ because he pushes using just one method, that being TOI? What instructors are you referring to that only teach one method of playing? I know for a fact that the SPF instructors teach several different methods, depending on the students needs and desires. So, you can't be referring to them.

So, when you refer to "cookie cutter" instructors, are you talking about those that only teach TOI, or those that won't teach a pendulum stroke even if the student wants to learn it, that only teach one to figure it out for themselves? What's the point of going to an instructor if you have to figure it out for yourself anyways? If one is capable of figuring it out for themselves, why are so few able to accomplish that task?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Public Service Announcement.

I will be ignoring the distortions being put out by a certain individual.

Based on that Facebook post made by a two lesson student that said he learned more useful info in just those two lessons than he had in all of 20 plus years of taking lessons from others...

I would suggest that perhaps taking two lessons from CJ Wiley might be better than taking lessons for 20 plus years from others.

Best Wishes for ALL.

 

[KRJ]

I'm surprised you didn't see it right away! As to the instructors Rick mentioned in regards to CJ's students, what Rick conveniently keeps leaving out, is that the guy said "pro instructors", most likely meaning professional players that also were doing some teaching. It easily could have been nothing more than one of the exibitions that some pros do some times and do a little teaching in them. We don't know, as it was never clarified. But, Rick has to reapeatedly use that poor, twisted, example in his attempt to run down actual instructors that he doesn't like.

LOL. Yep, "they" are allowed to teach one way, but others are "shamed" for teaching their way. Welcome to "English Logic 101"

 

[book collector]

Flailing was the first word I thought of.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Well Sir,

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I am sorry you seem to see things the way that you do.

If I go to a golf instructor & tell them that I want to learn to swing like Ben Hogan, I do not want a golf instructor telling me, 'No, that is not what you want to do. I doubt that you could do it anyway. What you want to do is this more simple no wrist golf swing that I can easily teach you.".

That is not what I or anyone should want, IMO.

I would want that instructor to say "Okay, I can teach you to swing LIKE Ben Hogan did" or I want them to say, "Well Sir, I don't teach that type of swing.". I do not want THEM to decide what TYPE of cue stroke I am to use.

I hope that gives you a better perspective of from where I'm coming.

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

If you can't play, you shouldn't teach, IMO. The instructor should be able to DEMONSTRATE why he feels his way is the best. Changing your stroke is A LOT of work, trust me on that. So if some random guy claims to be able to teach Earls stroke, then he should be able to show that stroke to you. Why would you want some guy to teach you a stroke he himself doesn't use or believe in, anyway?

I wanted to learn the snooker stroke, so I sought out a snooker instructor. I didn't ask some random, good pool player to show me. That would be silly.

I don't agree with the "fewest moving parts" paradigm. I especially do not agree with completely freezing the elbow on all shots, or killing wrist movement. That is why I would never seek out an instructor teaching that method. That does not mean I think those guys are out trying to scam the people they teach. They teach their students the best way they know how.

If you feel your way of playing is superior to theirs, you should be prepared to be challenged to demonstrate why you think that is. Make a video, or some sort of instructional material and release it into the pool world and see how it stacks up. If you can't teach it, then how is it any better than being taught by the other guys? At least they can document some results. Take the BU test, play against the ghost, anything is better than nothing. As it is, all you do is shoot things down. That doesn't take any work at all...