Stroke question

[Scott Lee]

What I gave you was a list of highly regarded and highly skilled instructors...not some list of pros (although all three are pro-ability players). If you line up 100 top pros they will all differentiate some in what they do.

I never even implied that you're an "ignorant yokel". The reason I say I don't think you understand how a pendulum stroke works is your constant comments on the tip "digging into the cloth"! That's not what happens at all. If fact, if you place your chin on the cue (with a level cue), in a snooker-like stance, and cuetip at maximum high (3 tips), the tip will finish off the cloth, with a pendulum stroke, never having touched it. The higher you stand over the cue, the more likely the tip is to finish on the cloth...not digging into it, just touching it. It doesn't really make any difference in that as far a physics is concerned, the shot was over at contact with the CB. How we finish our stroke is as different as how many poolplayers there are. There is nothing wrong with you doing what you do, and being successful and comfortable with it. Likewise, that doesn't make it "correct" for everybody. With literally tens of thousands of poolplayers that have adopted some kind of pendulum stroke, that also speaks to the success of the methods we teach. You and I certainly are civilized enough to be able to say what works best for each of us, without having to tear down the other's methods.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So I don't know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke, eh? LOL, I guess I'm the ignorant yokel, huh? I was introduced to the pendulum stroke very early as part of learning snooker. I found it very unnatural and counter productive for me. I'm aware of the fact that you can manipulate the hands and wrists to get a more level cue action, using a fixed elbow. I just don't see how that is any better or less complex than a normal cue action. And if you don't do this, you WILL dig your tip into the cloth with a pendulum stroke, it's just the nature of the beast.

Anyway, those people teaching no elbow drop, are they misinformed? Depends on what you mean by that. Are they out of touch with what nearly every pro is doing? IMO, yes they are. One day I'd like to see a statistic of some sort, not just a few randomly selected individuals but a really large list of pros, short stops, and A+ players the world over. I think it would be pretty conclusive in favor of the elbow drop. Why is that, do you think? Please don't say because of ignorance. I think the actual ignorant people are the ones casually dismissing the aquired knowledge of people devoting their life to the game.

People who teach a pendulum swing have a system in their teaching, built on a philosophy of "fewest possible moving parts", with which I am in near total disagreement. Humans are not robots, and our muscles are not built for this kind of movement. We are built for flowing motions, not rigid back and forth, using only a pair of muscles. This creates a very unnatural feeling stroke and movement of this sort is likely to cause discomfort and even injuries. Luckily the pool cue is so light that injuries are unlikely in our sport, but it is not out of the question if you do this kind of thing every day for decades. No other athlete uses this principle apart from maybe marksmen, but they don't have to propel their projectile with their muscles.

 

[Scott Lee]

100% agree with greyghost here. :thumbup: People DO get injured all the time trying to break hard. The ultimate truth is that if you're doing something that can result in injury...YOU'RE DOING IT THE WRONG WAY!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

pitchers do.....top pitchers barely even hold the ball.....the arm cant move that fast with tension....and is why many younger players get hurt...trying to THROW the ball....if we were really trying to move heavier objects you would see more people being "injured" trying for force shots like you see constantly anyways.....hitting the chit out the ball to get no action as is perennially rampant....it does feel unnaturl untill you learn the motions....but hows that diff from anything else you learn new.....first time anyone did the horizontal mambo i bet it didnt feel "natural" lmfao....except you were more drawn to that than turned off by the strange new feeling.

 

[Straightpool_99]

there are explained reasons why every top player does this or that move.....alot of its evolved from repitition and funky movements that over time for them became highly repeatable and accurate.

But go ahead and think you have to stroke it like earl to make it like earl....

there are shots Massey says you need to elbow drop and such....then i've seen snooker players snap the same shot on the 12ft knapp and just pure pendulum stroke it in....

but jeff bagwell musta been on to something right guys and gals?

Its also funny how you see all the players come out of asian and euro state programs and they all look very similar in addressing and stances....there is of course some vareity esp when you consider heights, but in general theres a template there.......these CONTRIVED TEMPLATES lol.

Let me know when you see "keith McCready" come out of an asian or european pool and billiard factory.

Dont worry I'll wait......Wu didn't win a world championship accidentally finding something in case you maybe wondered about things like that before.

smh,
-Greyghost

Do yourself, and everyone else a favor and watch the first 10 seconds of this video. You will see quite a few Europeans there, along with Americans and Pinoys. Watch their elbows and tell me what you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYgBw2aRgY

 

[Neil]

Do yourself, and everyone else a favor and watch the first 10 seconds of this video. You will see quite a few Europeans there, along with Americans and Pinoys. Watch their elbows and tell me what you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYgBw2aRgY

I see guys dropping their elbow after contact with the cb. Try slowing down the video, then pause and play real fast.

 

[ps611846]

Nothing like taking a page out of Rick's playbook. Make declarative statements with nothing to substantiate them to bolster your stance. Meanwhile, most are reading it scratching their heads and thinking- did he really just say that? Does he really think anyone is buying that?

Straightpool_99 !!!!

Do you give credit to this guy's comments ?

Do you think he is open minded and has knowledge of the game ?

He is a master in attacking other members and trying to make them look stupid in other member's eyes. Really bad behavior.

I agree 100% with what you say about the pool stroke.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Straightpool_99 !!!!

Do you give credit to this guy's comments ?

Do you think he is open minded and has knowledge of the game ?

He is a master in attacking other members and trying to make them look stupid in other member's eyes. Really bad behavior.

I agree 100% with what you say about the pool stroke.

I don't feel the need to try to attack or discredit him. I'll let his words and actions speak for themselves. If he feels that way about me and my posts, then so be it.

 

[greyghost]

Do yourself, and everyone else a favor and watch the first 10 seconds of this video. You will see quite a few Europeans there, along with Americans and Pinoys. Watch their elbows and tell me what you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYgBw2aRgY

same thing neil just said.....also can note that those were all power shots, not s.o.p. style shots.

thats where you get alot of "cross over" guys that are pendulum prior to contact, then drop after.....on power shots, the only guys i ever see that really dont do that on power shots, are the PERFECT still and pure momentum snooker guys, because its so trained.....or say.....a top player who breaks like chit because they wont undermine their perfect process....Allison Fisher

oh Karen too.....

 

[greyghost]

Do yourself, and everyone else a favor and watch the first 10 seconds of this video. You will see quite a few Europeans there, along with Americans and Pinoys. Watch their elbows and tell me what you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYgBw2aRgY

but again, as stated by others, dont lump me in as some fundamentalist thats saying only one or the other....everyone knows well the greyghost supports the grey areas...if one doesn't belive that they have not followed me well enough to believe such....any old time poster whos been around from mechanic section, cuemaker section, main, npr, instructor can vouch for that.....

but facts are still facts. reasons for everything are known....not unknown wehter your a purist, a cross over or mike davis....doesn't matter

 

[BeiberLvr]

I don't learn by watching a few videos. I have spent thousands of hours practicing. I don't own a pool table. I have spent so much money, I could have opened my own pool room.

Don't be so sure you know me that well.

The videos you have posted show the level of your knowledge. You try to explain cte, 90/90, etc... My experience at the table tells me that you do all these things by feel. No knowledge there.

Do you know the purpose of the pivots Francisco performs ? Why don't you tell me, if you think I only have some parts of the puzzle and you have the whole package ???????? Tell me what is the purpose of the pivot. I bet you don't know what this kind of pivoting is used for.

P.S. I know you don't know what Efren and Django do with their elbow and wrist. Actually, I am 100% sure.

Please learn better English.

 

[ps611846]

Please learn better English.[/QUOTE

I speak Greek really well. And I know my English is not good !!!!!

P.S. How are you doing with your "Vision Center" experiment ???? Did you get it ????? What is next ????? I ' ll be waiting !!!!!! ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Straightpool_99]

same thing neil just said.....also can note that those were all power shots, not s.o.p. style shots.

thats where you get alot of "cross over" guys that are pendulum prior to contact, then drop after.....on power shots, the only guys i ever see that really dont do that on power shots, are the PERFECT still and pure momentum snooker guys, because its so trained.....or say.....a top player who breaks like chit because they wont undermine their perfect process....Allison Fisher

oh Karen too.....

Yes there are some women who play complete textbook snooker fundamentals, but very, very few men.The power stroke, IMO is the test of any stroke. Who cares what you do on a 2 diamond straight in stop shot on a pool table. I can do one of those one handed, standing on one leg and I bet you can too. The actual stroke starts to become A LOT more important when you have to put a little force/spin on the ball.

The elbow drop is not an anomaly or some sort of afterthought. It's a natural part of a power stroke. You will notice that on all of the shots in the video, the elbow dropped in a natural, unforced way as part of the stroke.

 

[Neil]

Straightpool_99 !!!!

Do you give credit to this guy's comments ?

Do you think he is open minded and has knowledge of the game ?

He is a master in attacking other members and trying to make them look stupid in other member's eyes. Really bad behavior.

I agree 100% with what you say about the pool stroke.

So typical, when you have nothing to add to a discussion, then just accuse the other of attacking and having no knowledge. Talk about bad behavior!

Neither one of you are even bothering to actually read and think about what the instructors are even saying here. All you want to do is try and discredit others. Funny part is, we actually supply knowledge on here, all you do is tear knowledge down and insult others, then claim those with the knowledge are "attacking". You must really take the readership on here for a bunch of sheep that can't think for themselves.

Really sad that whenever knowledge is presented on here to help others improve, there are always a few right there to try and tear it down without offering any knowledge themselves.

I imagine your buddy will be along shortly to quote you and post a bunch of arrows to the quote. He loves that negative stuff.

 

[BasementDweller]

Someone mentioned pitchers as being analogous to pool players that use a pendulum stroke. If it were true that pitchers were concerned with having the fewest moving parts as possible they would all toss the ball underhanded.

 

[greyghost]

Yes there are some women who play complete textbook snooker fundamentals, but very, very few men.The power stroke, IMO is the test of any stroke. Who cares what you do on a 2 diamond straight in stop shot on a pool table. I can do one of those one handed, standing on one leg and I bet you can too. The actual stroke starts to become A LOT more important when you have to put a little force/spin on the ball.

The elbow drop is not an anomaly or some sort of afterthought. It's a natural part of a power stroke. You will notice that on all of the shots in the video, the elbow dropped in a natural, unforced way as part of the stroke.

we know that already....what is your point? it happens from either a firm or firming up (regrip) of the cue

also the power stroke is no more of a test of stroke than very soft touchy strokes needed for long soft accurate shots......which is why everyone including pros harder and softer shots are the hardest, then the standard speeds and shots are well....standard....which is why the pbia calls those speeds and shots S.O.P. standard operational protocol.

some instructors have background in education....there are right and wrong ways to teach people...especially when you cant sit there and hold a babies hand every day.....its very rare that we get to work with anyone through and through, i've only had one student in hundreds.

 

[ps611846]

Yes there are some women who play complete textbook snooker fundamentals, but very, very few men.The power stroke, IMO is the test of any stroke. Who cares what you do on a 2 diamond straight in stop shot on a pool table. I can do one of those one handed, standing on one leg and I bet you can too. The actual stroke starts to become A LOT more important when you have to put a little force/spin on the ball.

The elbow drop is not an anomaly or some sort of afterthought. It's a natural part of a power stroke. You will notice that on all of the shots in the video, the elbow dropped in a natural, unforced way as part of the stroke.

First of all you have to find you "Vision Center".

The master "BeiberLvr" can help you with this. You will need some special equipment, but that's ok......

Smart people like "BeiberLvr" are the reason why pool in the U.S is getting better and better.......

"Vision Center" my friend....

 

[Neil]

Yes there are some women who play complete textbook snooker fundamentals, but very, very few men.The power stroke, IMO is the test of any stroke. Who cares what you do on a 2 diamond straight in stop shot on a pool table. I can do one of those one handed, standing on one leg and I bet you can too. The actual stroke starts to become A LOT more important when you have to put a little force/spin on the ball.

The elbow drop is not an anomaly or some sort of afterthought. It's a natural part of a power stroke. You will notice that on all of the shots in the video, the elbow dropped in a natural, unforced way as part of the stroke.

Actually, it is in a forced way. You just have been doing it for so long that it seems natural to you. Strange how you think NOT moving requires force to do so. So much force, that it will produce muscle injury. ?????

 

[greyghost]

and a big problem many encounter using the piston style stroke that aren't pros.....a huge affliction.....

is it can lift you out your stance during delievery if the hands too tight on the grip......its a fact.

which can destroy any high or low placement the tip will be on the cb....the same exact thing that the piston fundamentalist states they do better than a pendulum stroker (excluding grey area)

even tho English tries to say that the piston keeps him straight left and right on the ball on delivery....which has never been debated here because thats preposterous, as neither stroke gets you better on the ball left or right.........techinally you could say theres a larger margin for error in a pendulum becuse of less moving parts and muscular influence, but even disregarding that....at best they are equal left and right.....

 

[greyghost]

First of all you have to find you "Vision Center".

The master "BeiberLvr" can help you with this. You will need some special equipment, but that's ok......

Smart people like "BeiberLvr" are the reason why pool in the U.S is getting better and better.......

"Vision Center" my friend....

what you must think about your lord english and his quiet eye stuff from geno (geno doesn not teach quiet eye.....PERFECT AIM IS WHAT I MEANT) then

hehaw

just like your so called ld shooting method....which is a system....not a method

 

[ps611846]

what you must think about your lord english and his quiet eye stuff from geno then

hehaw

just like your so called ld shooting method....which is a system....not a method

Yes. And your shooting system and fundamentals. All based in "feel". I don't shoot by feel.

My so called method ????

What about your "so called" perfect cue alignment and stance ???? What do you see from there ???? Contact points ???? Ghost balls ??????? Parallel lines ????

How does your method "treat" back cuts ???? Your so called "vision center" works like in standard cuts ??? Do you undercut them ??? Do you play them in a different way ? Do you just put some outside spin or adjusting without even notice ?

Pls, feel free to attack..... You are just like your "friends" here in this forum.

Or should I call them your "backers" ????? You know the guys who would love to watch you beating Rick in a pool match......

Relax my friend. Everyone is different. The game is not played only in one way.

Thanks for your kind words........

 

[Straightpool_99]

Someone mentioned pitchers as being analogous to pool players that use a pendulum stroke. If it were true that pitchers were concerned with having the fewest moving parts as possible they would all toss the ball underhanded.

This is no place for logic or empirical observations, sir.