Chalk.... Inconvenient Truths....

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I have no reason to read anything you post because you are anon likely an apa 5ish?... You could be PJ or English, pooplaya9 or any number of irrelevant posters.... Your opinion is based in opinion and not fact... You are welcome to ask Corey what he found out if you know him... Likely not but you could....

Sorry but not sorry that I will not entertain you... You did not try the test
and just started running that holster.... It's all good but I won't play... Go try the test and video the results or step off.... Dave likely has plenty of other sheep to defend him.

Just like I said you would do, and like you have done every time, you just try to change the subject and misdirect things away from having to provide any evidence for all your silly claims. Where is any evidence to support any of your silly claims? Years later everyone is still waiting. Heck, where is the video of this Corey test that you are now citing as the holy grail?

How far was the notebook from the cue ball in that test? Was the notebook the same distance from the cue ball on every shot or did it vary depending? Assuming you did it the right way, which is doubtful, where is the video so we can see that for ourselves? Since you have been fighting the legitimate science on this topic for quite some time, and have been desperately trying to come up with any evidence at all that you can use to try to refute the evidence which disagrees with your claims, surely you of course videoed all this testing that you knew you would be referencing as your proof, right? So where is it?

Was the cue stick at as close to the same angle as possible for every shot throughout the test? It needed to be. You probably think it was but with the notebook near the cue ball it would be very easy to subconsciously change the cue angle on some shots as the height of the notebook changed. Where is the video so we can see for ourselves that the cue angle stayed pretty consistent?

How often did the tip hit the notebook? And when it did, where did it hit the notebook, and how often at each spot? All very important for several reasons but I see no mention of any of this showing that you were even aware that it was important much less that you properly took it into consideration and accounted for it correctly. No video to show how it was done or that it was done properly either.

To an extent the notebook keeps you from being able to hit lower than intended (although it doesn’t necessarily do a great job at this for several reasons), but what kept Corey from hitting a little higher than he intended to on some shots? Yes I know he is skilled but there should be some kind of check in place to confirm where the cue ball was actually contacted. How did you handle this? Where is the video showing how it was done?

How did he establish what he considered to be the miscue limit? First miscue at a certain notebook thickness is the miscue limit? Miscuing half the time at a certain thickness is the miscue limit? Two miscues in a row is the miscue limit? Three times in a row is the miscue limit? Two out of three at a certain thickness is the miscue limit? Until he just kind of “felt” like it was the miscue limit without really relying on a certain amount of miscues? Only one way is accurate. Hopefully you know what that is and can share that with us if you did it properly. And if you do know, was that same miscue limit criteria used every time in every test and for every chalk? Why or why not? Where is the video showing that it was done properly?

Those are just some of the things that were very important to properly take into consideration and there are more. Do any of it wrong and the results of the experiment are not reliable no matter which side of the argument they support, and regardless of whether it is Corey or anybody else doing it. I highly doubt you knew some of these things were important, much less exactly how they should be handled. Where is the video so we can see for ourselves that a couple of guys that know nothing about how to do a proper experiment actually did a proper experiment whose results can be relied on? Share with us all the exact procedures you used for the experiment so we know just how (un)reliable it was.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Just like I said you would do, and like you have done every time, you just try to change the subject and misdirect things away from having to provide any evidence for all your silly claims. Where is any evidence to support any of your silly claims? Years later everyone is still waiting. Heck, where is the video of this Corey test that you are now citing as the holy grail?

How far was the notebook from the cue ball in that test? Was the notebook the same distance from the cue ball on every shot or did it vary depending? Assuming you did it the right way, which is doubtful, where is the video so we can see that for ourselves? Since you have been fighting the legitimate science on this topic for quite some time, and have been desperately trying to come up with any evidence at all that you can use to try to refute the evidence which disagrees with your claims, surely you of course videoed all this testing that you knew you would be referencing as your proof, right? So where is it?

Was the cue stick at as close to the same angle as possible for every shot throughout the test? It needed to be. You probably think it was but with the notebook near the cue ball it would be very easy to subconsciously change the cue angle on some shots as the height of the notebook changed. Where is the video so we can see for ourselves that the cue angle stayed pretty consistent?

How often did the tip hit the notebook? And when it did, where did it hit the notebook, and how often at each spot? All very important for several reasons but I see no mention of any of this showing that you were even aware that it was important much less that you properly took it into consideration and accounted for it correctly. No video to show how it was done or that it was done properly either.

To an extent the notebook keeps you from being able to hit lower than intended (although it doesn’t necessarily do a great job at this for several reasons), but what kept Corey from hitting a little higher than he intended to on some shots? Yes I know he is skilled but there should be some kind of check in place to confirm where the cue ball was actually contacted. How did you handle this? Where is the video showing how it was done?

How did he establish what he considered to be the miscue limit? First miscue at a certain notebook thickness is the miscue limit? Miscuing half the time at a certain thickness is the miscue limit? Two miscues in a row is the miscue limit? Three times in a row is the miscue limit? Two out of three at a certain thickness is the miscue limit? Until he just kind of “felt” like it was the miscue limit without really relying on a certain amount of miscues? Only one way is accurate. Hopefully you know what that is and can share that with us if you did it properly. And if you do know, was that same miscue limit criteria used every time in every test and for every chalk? Why or why not? Where is the video showing that it was done properly?

Those are just some of the things that were very important to properly take into consideration and there are more. Do any of it wrong and the results of the experiment are not reliable no matter which side of the argument they support, and regardless of whether it is Corey or anybody else doing it. I highly doubt you knew some of these things were important, much less exactly how they should be handled. Where is the video so we can see for ourselves that a couple of guys that know nothing about how to do a proper experiment actually did a proper experiment whose results can be relied on? Share with us all the exact procedures you used for the experiment so we know just how (un)reliable it was.

Overall, I think the notebook is an interesting way for everyone to experiment for themselves. All you need is a notebook and regular playing equipment and a cheap high speed camera (or maybe a smartphone with hs capability). If you want, you can even make it a blind experiment, where a friend is chalking your cue for you and you don't know what's on the tip. Tough to do double blind, since the friend will be able to feel differences while applying, even if the brand is masked beforehand.

Who is going to set up an expensive robot and spend hundreds of man hours to find this out, I don't even think Dr. Dave would be interested in that?

You can nitpick this experiment to death, but in the end, if this experiment does not show clear differences, then I don't think the difference is significant enough to matter in everyday play for a regular player.

If I was a manufacturer or scientist, that would be quite different, because obviously the demands of precision for a scientific publication are different than those a player might need, and as a manufacturer I'd be worried about being sued or be extremely interested in small differences due to the manufacturing process etc.. Here is a video showing the notebook miscue test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFEw-BXgKrQ
If you watch that, I think you'll agree that for a skilled player this method can be remarkably accurate. It would be very expensive and time consuming to improve on this.
 
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M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd like to offer a different insight:
Can't we simply agree that different people have different flaws and as such different equipment works better/worse for them - countering/balancing out their flaws?

Only pros can work with the little edge some equipment may provide as it's really razor-thin.

I think we can agree that Master's chalk is just lazy. All others have tried for a more coherent and uniform ("graded abrasives") texture.
In the end it's again your equipment and your preference as to how chalk comes into play.

These "inconvenient truths" threads become boring quickly (at least for hard Europeans like me :wink: ) whereas you Americans seem to like the idea of "hidden truths" or "hidden special tricks nobody tells you that will solve all your problems".

As to why Mister Renfro has a weak argument:
A bald tire has exactly the same area of contact to the ground as a slick has; the only different is in the rubber mixture where the slick will be softer and as such can leverage more friction by actually sticking to the ground and and such extending the area and time of contact. I can't see how this will happen with chalk - but I'm really looking forward to chalk having the texture of bubble gum :grin-square:

Cheers,
M (the matter-of-factly one, enjoying the game and not terrible arguments)
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have no reason to read anything you post because you are anon likely an apa 5ish?... You could be PJ or English, pooplaya9 or any number of irrelevant posters

Actually, if he were English, he'd likely agree with the nonsense you are posting.

Your opinion is based in opinion and not fact... You are welcome to ask Corey what he found out if you know him... Likely not but you could....

Someone should teach you the difference between opinion and fact, and about how real science works.

Don't think Dr. DAve's experiment is right? Do something similar and product different results, then I'll listen. Until then, it's all just a cheap marketing ploy.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Overall, I think the notebook is an interesting way for everyone to experiment for themselves. All you need is a notebook and regular playing equipment and a cheap high speed camera (or maybe a smartphone with hs capability). If you want, you can even make it a blind experiment, where a friend is chalking your cue for you and you don't know what's on the tip. Tough to do double blind, since the friend will be able to feel differences while applying, even if the brand is masked beforehand.

Who is going to set up an expensive robot and spend hundreds of man hours to find this out, I don't even think Dr. Dave would be interested in that?

You can nitpick this experiment to death, but in the end, if this experiment does not show clear differences, then I don't think the difference is significant enough to matter in everyday play for a regular player.

If I was a manufacturer or scientist, that would be quite different, because obviously the demands of precision for a scientific publication are different than those a player might need, and as a manufacturer I'd be worried about being sued or be extremely interested in small differences due to the manufacturing process etc.. Here is a video showing the notebook miscue test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFEw-BXgKrQ
If you watch that, I think you'll agree that for a skilled player this method can be remarkably accurate. It would be very expensive and time consuming to improve on this.

I think you are missing a number of key points.

This test as Renfro spelled it out (which was very vague with no detail) can be done in a way such that the results are very inaccurate and completely unreliable. I think you are grossly underestimating just how inaccurately it could be done, probably partly because you watched that video and assume he did it in a similar way. But that is an assumption we just don’t know because he didn’t say. And even the video isn’t the most accurate way to do it although it is certainly better than some of the other ways it could have been set up with the same props.

I never said that a notebook and a cue ball and a cue stick and various pieces of chalk could not ever produce half accurate results. I said in large part the quality of the results depended on the quality of the procedures used. If done reasonably well, you can get reasonably good results. If done improperly, you can get wildly erroneous results. We have no idea what they did and no reason to suspect it was done well (every reason to suspect it wasn't done well actually).

That was one of the main points, he simply didn’t tell us what procedures he used so you have no way of knowing if the results are half reliable or not. That is why I asked for the procedures they used, or a video. Based on his history for being able to evaluate data, and evaluate the quality of experiments, it certainly can’t be assumed that he did it in a reasonably accurate way.

We also don’t have a video showing what was done. Just show the video if you have it. If not, it makes you wonder why. Based on the history of this saga you would have to think that if he felt there was any way possible that experiment with Corey might help to substantiate his claims that he would have filmed it. There is a video camera right on his phone. Or is it that he filmed it but just doesn't want to show it because he knows it was done in a way that won’t give reliable results? You have to wonder. In any case if you either don’t have the video or don’t want to show it then at least tell people how to accurately do the experiment so they can try it themselves (which he didn't do), that is if he knows how to accurately set it up himself, which is doubtful.

I think you also are failing to see the significance of the various factors I pointed out before. They aren’t things that could only make a small difference and I’m just nit picking about it. They are things that can actually make a huge difference to the results and make them wildly unreliable, not just a little bit off. Also important are speed as well as speed consistency among other things. Having the experiment be blind as you mentioned is always a good thing but I don’t think it would be necessary if everything else were done properly. Was it done properly, or horribly, or somewhere in between? We don’t know as he hasn’t told us what procedures they used, nor do we have a video to see for ourselves.
 

john coloccia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You spend more time putting down competitors and making personal attacks than you do actually selling your product, and it's pretty consistent from thread to thread.

I also have to wonder if you even realize what you're saying. Basically, your point is "Well of course YOU can't take advantage of high end chalk. You don't have a professional stroke, like Corey." Sounds like a compelling argument to stick with Master...
 
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Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Never used Great White. Where does it rank with Magic Chalk, Master, Predator, Kamui and the lot?
 

john coloccia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll also add that all of these miscue tests, scientific or not, are completely irrelevant to my pool game. I'd like someone to show me a shot I can make with brand X chalk that I can't make with my $.15 cube of chalk. That's the bottom line, IMHO.
 

Maxx

AzB Platinum Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You spend more time putting down competitors and making personal attacks than you do actually selling your product, and it's pretty consistent from thread to thread.

I also have to wonder if you even realize what you're saying. Basically, your point is "Well of course YOU can't take advantage of high end chalk. You don't have a professional stroke, like Corey." Sounds like a compelling argument to stick with Master...

Excellent post!
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First post was actually about what Corey did to test the chalk and what to actually expect regarding premium chalk... After that is was a sheep/troll and sheep/troll spray.... I really don't care if you buy ours or not but to continue to use master thinking it's the same when you have kamui and Magic as well as ours.... well have at it....

Actually the first post was about you insulting Dr Dave with childish name calling.
 

cueenvy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Enough chalk BS.

I'll spot people kamui chalk instead of a game on the wire....it makes no difference...

These presentations belong in the for sale section.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Overall, I think the notebook is an interesting way for everyone to experiment for themselves. All you need is a notebook and regular playing equipment and a cheap high speed camera (or maybe a smartphone with hs capability). If you want, you can even make it a blind experiment, where a friend is chalking your cue for you and you don't know what's on the tip. Tough to do double blind, since the friend will be able to feel differences while applying, even if the brand is masked beforehand.

Who is going to set up an expensive robot and spend hundreds of man hours to find this out, I don't even think Dr. Dave would be interested in that?

You can nitpick this experiment to death, but in the end, if this experiment does not show clear differences, then I don't think the difference is significant enough to matter in everyday play for a regular player.

If I was a manufacturer or scientist, that would be quite different, because obviously the demands of precision for a scientific publication are different than those a player might need, and as a manufacturer I'd be worried about being sued or be extremely interested in small differences due to the manufacturing process etc.. Here is a video showing the notebook miscue test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFEw-BXgKrQ
If you watch that, I think you'll agree that for a skilled player this method can be remarkably accurate. It would be very expensive and time consuming to improve on this.

The video you showed is a good way for someone to learn what the approximate miscue limit is, but that is all. One has to realize that the tip has a 3mm contact area. Most amateurs have trouble staying within 3mm of where they want to hit the cb, and most pros strive for staying within about 1mm.

Each page of that book was 1/10 of a mm. No one is going to be that accurate on their hits. Not to mention that for an actual test of a miscue limit being fine-tuned, this method fails for the simple reason that the paper will be compressed various amounts depending on just where contact was made on the paper. So, it can not give an accurate result. It can only teach one an approximate area of where the miscue limit is.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
My only deep apology is to Royce... He was a better man than me and I miss his guidance... I will apologize to the rest of AZ for the drama as I should have waited until I could post something of substance instead of calling names but Dave did post his link on my site and has been doing so on my sales threads for awhile on FB... He is spreading myth... That's 1 thing I won't do... If I say something will break... That it's a knockoff or that they are breaking Federal Trade Laws, when I say those things..... I have no problem standing behind them... Royce taught me no BS... As long as it's not BS... I have no problem standing behind what I say..... and we do still make our products out of my home.. about 1000 ft is now Outsville... We live in the other 1400 for now... But Back to the inconvenient truths....

Some Inconvenient truths..... Dispelled by a different kind of PHD and Genius......

Many of you have likely seen this on you tube... http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/chalk.html..... After 6 years studying, making and pretty much breathing and eating chalk... There are some truths that won't match up with a bad set of tests and an amateur stroke.....

1) Chalk doesn't either miss cue or create good contact..... Use your ears the next time you don't get the results you expected... Good contact has a warm wave form when you look at the sound wave.. A miss cue will have a higher sound and it has a narrower wave form... A slip depending on when it occurs will be in between as will be the amount of english you get....

2) Premium Chalk does not have a different misscue limit than standard chalk... That would be akin to saying bald tires get the same traction as drag slicks maybe in a pinto but not on anything else... Premium chalks have graded abrasives and they are higher in quality and are in abundance... Abrasives are what makes chalk work...

3) As long as you chalk each shot it doesn't matter what chalk you use... Yeah no.... Better chalk will change your game it you give it a month for your subconscious to relearn the new limits and you can trust those limits on each shot using several premiums as they are more consistent and homogeneous thruout the cube/piece

So on to the PHD and Genius... I wanted to build a robot before I got into this and then I went to the Expo.... Not sure who all saw this but Mark Rosner and a few others saw it so this is not fiction....
I apologize for not allowing Corey to make this post but he is likely somewhere trying to win a tournament.. using his PHD or Pool Hall Degree.....

Corey Deuel was at the Expo and decided to see for himself if there really was a difference between Master and Kamui... His idea on how to test this and eliminate bias and stroke flaws was once again pure genius.... And all it took was the chalk, his cue and a simple notebook...
What Corey did was to use the notebook to establish the height of his stroke... He then took turns with the different chalks and started turning pages to lower his cue as he went on shooting draw shots....
Once he established a misscue limit for the master he continued to turn pages and go lower and lower with the Kamui.... Now I have to point out that the master had a fluctuating limit since it does not use a graded abrasive... What you thought was the limit for one shot was not the limit the next time....

I have not done the test with the different chalks because of time but this is something ANY of you can try... I can't say Great White will beat Kamui or that we will lose to them either but I can say that anyone who says there is no difference in the different chalks is completely wrong and you can prove it to yourself.... Best part is that this is what matters... Noone shoots 20 shots between chalking unless they are playing for fun.....


How do you know exactly what ingredients are in ( or left out of) Masters and Kamui?
Is there a lab report that can show proof of your claims?
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
These "inconvenient truths" threads become boring quickly (at least for hard Europeans like me :wink: ) whereas you Americans seem to like the idea of "hidden truths" or "hidden special tricks nobody tells you that will solve all your problems".

)

I'm not joining this fight,I just don't understand how bigotry is ok when it is geared towards Americans. Why do so many Europeans feel the need to qualify their opinions as perceived improvements over their perceived "American" way of thinking. I think for myself thank you!


So this is in some way relevant. I love science and I love magic chalk. Draw your own conclusions.
 

Dave-Kat

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have used some 'real' vintage Pre-Flag Masters for 3 years exclusively. The only time I miscue it's my fault. Bad stroke, pushing the envelope on tip my placement or in a hurry and not chalking up on far edge hits.

This chalk back and forth crap is BS as far as I am concerned. I have seen and inspected some well known 'designer' cubes and IMO they are generally thick or pasty. If you want chalk paste just get a jar.

I chalk up every shot generally unless I have more than a 3 ball run....then I am in the 'zone' and just drop and shoot not to disrupt my rhythm :groucho: LoL

Have a good day,

-Kat,
 
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