Break question - where to hit the cue ball?

[MuchoBurrito]

I often hear players and commentators talk about hitting the cue ball with a little bit of draw to hold position in the center of the table.

When I see them shoot, after the CB bounces back off the headball, it grabs the cloth and rolls forward.

I don't understand how this is possible if there is "draw" spin on the CB. In order for the direction of the CB to reverse (ie. it's moving backwards towards the headrail after contact with the rack, but then grabs the cloth and spins forward towards the footrail) the CB MUST have follow on it.

If there were draw spin, or even no spin, on the CB, it would roll backwards to the headrail. Why do I keep hearing people saying that you want to hit the CB slightly below center on the break, when you obviously need to hit ABOVE center, in order to hold position in the center of the table?

For example this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg96hsF2Cy8 he says there is "draw" on the CB when there is clearly follow on the CB.
Or here: https://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/tips-for-smashing-the-rack, tip # 15 is to hit the CB "a hair to a full tip below center". If you contact the CB a full tip below center you are going to draw back to the headrail every single time.

When I break 8b I hit above center but 9b I'm trying to hit center ball dead on.

 

[realkingcobra]

I often hear players and commentators talk about hitting the cue ball with a little bit of draw to hold position in the center of the table.

When I see them shoot, after the CB bounces back off the headball, it grabs the cloth and rolls forward.

I don't understand how this is possible if there is "draw" spin on the CB. In order for the direction of the CB to reverse (ie. it's moving backwards towards the headrail after contact with the rack, but then grabs the cloth and spins forward towards the footrail) the CB MUST have follow on it.

If there were draw spin, or even no spin, on the CB, it would roll backwards to the headrail. Why do I keep hearing people saying that you want to hit the CB slightly below center on the break, when you obviously need to hit ABOVE center, in order to hold position in the center of the table?

For example this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg96hsF2Cy8 he says there is "draw" on the CB when there is clearly follow on the CB.
Or here: https://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/tips-for-smashing-the-rack, tip # 15 is to hit the CB "a hair to a full tip below center". If you contact the CB a full tip below center you are going to draw back to the headrail every single time.

When I break 8b I hit above center but 9b I'm trying to hit center ball dead on.

This is why some Pro players....break the rack, studies the break, racks the balls....then breaks the rack, studies the balls....then repeats....repeats and repeats....hours on end.....just ONE shot......not to give it away for free.

 

[brentinps]

Good point. I agree with you. Draw never ends up any good your kicking back to the headstring or side pocket after striking the rack from center.

The only other possibility is that draw may be used if you are breaking from the side or not hitting the 1st ball.

I'll check the vids you posted later.....

Vid 1 shows a 9 ball brak from the side... so if it is a smooth controlled break and coming in from the angle I can see how a bit of draw could possibly offset the forward motion of the ball.... but only if it is a slower break.

Reading the second link, I found it interesting reading.. and will try some of the angled breaks where some draw and side english correctly might reduce the potential for scratch.

I think you, set up like myself.... placing the cue ball in the direct center of the headstring to break and have maximum full frontal collision... and we HAVE to put some follow in the ball in order to optimally park the cue ball right in the center of the table.

An" 8 ball break" is powerful coming in from the side, between the 1st and second cueball with side english... but you have no control where the cue ball will end up.

I have always hit center to smash and follow to stop in my style... but I will try a couple of similar breaks from the side as shown... with a little draw.... makes sense as follow could lead you ricochet and drainthe cue ball in either side of the front pockets.

Good question.. that is my take.

 

[MuchoBurrito]

This is why some Pro players....break the rack, studies the break, racks the balls....then breaks the rack, studies the balls....then repeats....repeats and repeats....hours on end.....just ONE shot......not to give it away for free.

I actually break, and rack, and break, and rack, and break, etc... like that for hours as well. I practice my 8b & 9b breaks more than any other aspect of the game. I spend a lot of time on my break mechanics, and studying 9b racks.

I also like studying the break strokes of great breakers (my favorites are SVB and Ignacio) endlessly.

Which is why I am confused when I hear people saying that we are supposed to hit a break stroke with draw. It makes no sense to me based on everything that I have learned and seen, for 8b & 10b this is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Even for 9b I think any significant amount of draw will roll you back to the headstring.

If a ball checks up with it grabs the cloth, that's follow, not draw. So, to repeat my question, are these people (including many serious players) simply confused about what's actually happening?

 

[HawaiianEye]

I try to "kill" the cue ball on the break. By that, I mean I try to "neutralize" the cue ball when it hits the head ball, so that it sort of dies right in the middle of the table. I am usually angling my cue so that I have a bit of a "downward" angle on the cue ball and I hit barely below center. I think the "angle" of the cue has a lot to do with people not breaking the same way from break to break. They will think they are hitting the same spot on the cue ball, but they will be hitting it from a different angle. That makes a lot of difference on the cue ball's reaction. I make sure I use a closed bridge and the way I position my cue across my thumb, I can ensure the cue angle is the same from break to break.

Another thing I do is make sure my hands are positioned in exactly the same spots on my cue for my bridge length and where my grip hand is on my wrap. That ensures I have the same stroke length from rack to rack.

If I am breaking from the left side, I hit a bit left of the vertical center axis and just the opposite from the right side. I adjust, as needed. If you put the "right" amount of spin on the cue ball and hit the "right" spot on the head ball, the cue ball "neutralizes". With the cue ball sitting in the middle of the table, the thing that may screw you up is there is a lot of flying balls that may knock the cue ball somewhere.

I usually use the Accu-Rack when I'm playing and I make balls on the break more times than not. This last Sunday I was making as many as four balls on the break. A couple of times, I made several balls on the break and the cue ball was sitting almost in the center of the table and then a ball would come out of nowhere and hook me on the object ball.

There were numerous times that I made the one ball in the side and at least one wing ball on the break in the same rack. I can hit them hard and put the one ball within an inch or two of the side pocket at least 75% of the time.

 

[brentinps]

So HawaiianEye: For clarity... Am I right I to assume you are talking about 9 ball breaks only??

And is it right to call your break a "controlled slow break" or is it a 85% or more strength "balls out" slam?

Thx

 

[Kim Bye]

A 9 ball break is different than a 10 ball break.
If the 1 ball is on the spot in 9 ball, i put the CB at the outer diamond on the head rail and up against the headstring. I usually break from the right side. I aim about 5 o clock on the CB, with the tip about 3/4 below center and I aim to hit the 1 ball at the same place as the CB, at about the 1o clock/5 o clock line.
My speed is just over medium hard, about 26 KPH.
I'll make a ball or two and get position 9 times out of 10.

 

[JoseV]

Do what i did, take a Numbered ball use it as the CB pick your aim point, break, grab that ball you used to break with, look for the chalk mark, that will tell you if you are hitting where you are aiming.

A lot of people say they are aiming here but are really not hitting where they are aiming. Even the slightest flinch will throw off where you aim while breaking. I found out that i was aiming extreme low but was actually hitting about a tip below center.

One thing i will say is that when my break is working right i always find that i hit the CB with a 100% of the tip, i can tell this by looking at the CB and see a full blue tip print on the CB.

When my break is not great using the same routine i start to miscue and notice my tip print way off the intended aim point and the print is not as big.

 

[JoseV]

I actually break, and rack, and break, and rack, and break, etc... like that for hours as well. I practice my 8b & 9b breaks more than any other aspect of the game. I spend a lot of time on my break mechanics, and studying 9b racks.

I also like studying the break strokes of great breakers (my favorites are SVB and Ignacio) endlessly.

Which is why I am confused when I hear people saying that we are supposed to hit a break stroke with draw. It makes no sense to me based on everything that I have learned and seen, for 8b & 10b this is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Even for 9b I think any significant amount of draw will roll you back to the headstring.

If a ball checks up with it grabs the cloth, that's follow, not draw. So, to repeat my question, are these people (including many serious players) simply confused about what's actually happening?

In short if you aim low like draw, hit the rack and the CB ends up going forward in stead of back to you, they are simply not hitting where they say they are. They aim low but end up hitting high.

 

[RickLafayette]

A lot of break shots have to do with body mechanics. You will see a lot of players go through a pre-shot routine, positioning their cue tip a half tip to a full tip below center and keep it there while they take their practice strokes. When they finally take their shot, they will drop their shoulder upon striking the cue ball (for more power), hitting the cue ball above center, thus causing the desired follow/roll of the cue ball. The shooter will continue with the follow-through, with the tip of the cue resting on the table cloth. To the less informed, this will look like the cue was struck below center.
If the cue ball rolls forward upon hitting the rack, it was, in fact, struck somewhat above center.

Two variables that will account for inconsistencies are the tightness of the rack, and the speed of the cloth from table to table.

 

[Scratch85]

....break the rack, studies the break, racks the balls....then breaks the rack, studies the balls....then repeats....repeats and repeats....hours on end.....just ONE shot......

Way too many variables to say there is one correct spot to hit a break shot. There is a BIG difference between the mass of a full rack and that of a 9-ball rack. The cueball reacts very differently between the two. Most notably the exaggerated effect of backspin on the full rack.

There is also a difference between a cueball that is airborne and one that is not. Not everyone is looking for the same result from a break shot so you just have to hit it many times to pick the one you like.

Personally, for 9-ball, I use about 1/2 tip high, break from near the rail. aim to hit full and hit about 80%. The adjust as necessary. For 8-ball, I use low inside and hit the second ball at about 80%.

 

[West Point 1987]

Everyone forgets/misunderstands the impact of speed/force on a CB, even when it's sliding or spinning backwards...when you slam the CB, you're loading potential energy in the forward direction that isn't completely overcome by the resultant force of impacting against an OB or the rack in the case of breaking. That's why the CB often jumps/slides back off the impact, then squats or even rolls forward after bouncing backwards first (or hooks into the side pocket). It's the same reason that trying to draw a shot with a lot of force doesn't work as well as a smooth, medium stroke with follow through. The more force you hit the CB with, the more energy is loaded on the CB, the more forward momentum is remaining even after contact--which kills the draw.

Sooooo.....drawing a break shot is a real thing, it doesn't result in the ball shooting back to the head rail, unless you haven't hit it hard enough or hit the rack square enough. It's a balancing act and one that takes lots of practice to perfect...and varies between the number of balls in the rack-the difference in mass of the rack impacts how much energy is taken in the collision with the CB.

 

[Cornerman]

I often hear players and commentators talk about hitting the cue ball with a little bit of draw to hold position in the center of the table.

When I see them shoot, after the CB bounces back off the headball, it grabs the cloth and rolls forward.

I don't understand how this is possible if there is "draw" spin on the CB. In order for the direction of the CB to reverse (ie. it's moving backwards towards the headrail after contact with the rack, but then grabs the cloth and spins forward towards the footrail) the CB MUST have follow on it.

If there were draw spin, or even no spin, on the CB, it would roll backwards to the headrail. Why do I keep hearing people saying that you want to hit the CB slightly below center on the break, when you obviously need to hit ABOVE center, in order to hold position in the center of the table?

For example this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg96hsF2Cy8 he says there is "draw" on the CB when there is clearly follow on the CB.
Or here: https://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/tips-for-smashing-the-rack, tip # 15 is to hit the CB "a hair to a full tip below center". If you contact the CB a full tip below center you are going to draw back to the headrail every single time.

When I break 8b I hit above center but 9b I'm trying to hit center ball dead on.

Good question. Used to be asked quite a bit, but not so much lately.

High speed videos will show that any number of pop and squat breaks are actually hit a hair high, regardless of the starting aim. Most players drop their elbow and get their hips involved in the power break. I think only Johnny Archer is one of the premier breakers that actually aims about where he's shooting on the break ( a hair high). Other great breakers like Shane and Dechaine start low with their aim (at the cloth) and very clearly hit higher.

And beware of physics terms when they're not actually describing physics.

Dr Dave did a good job at analyzing Shane's break. Search for it.

Freddie <~~~ lather, rinse, repeat

 

[BRussell]

In short if you aim low like draw, hit the rack and the CB ends up going forward in stead of back to you, they are simply not hitting where they say they are. They aim low but end up hitting high.

This is exactly right. They're dropping their elbow and hitting higher than they're aiming.

It makes no sense to hit low and hard on the cue ball, hit the top ball square, and then stop or go forward.

I think that if the cue ball is sliding when it hits the rack it will still come back as if it was spinning backwards, because the mass of the rack is greater than the mass of a single ball (like using a small or light cue ball). So that would mean you'd need to hit higher on the cue ball than normal to get stop or slight follow.

 

[Skippy27]

Everyone forgets/misunderstands the impact of speed/force on a CB, even when it's sliding or spinning backwards...when you slam the CB, you're loading potential energy in the forward direction that isn't completely overcome by the resultant force of impacting against an OB or the rack in the case of breaking. That's why the CB often jumps/slides back off the impact, then squats or even rolls forward after bouncing backwards first (or hooks into the side pocket). It's the same reason that trying to draw a shot with a lot of force doesn't work as well as a smooth, medium stroke with follow through. The more force you hit the CB with, the more energy is loaded on the CB, the more forward momentum is remaining even after contact--which kills the draw.

Sooooo.....drawing a break shot is a real thing, it doesn't result in the ball shooting back to the head rail, unless you haven't hit it hard enough or hit the rack square enough. It's a balancing act and one that takes lots of practice to perfect...and varies between the number of balls in the rack-the difference in mass of the rack impacts how much energy is taken in the collision with the CB.

What you say goes against the simple laws of physics

The cueball will NEVER EVER go forward after hitting the rack unless it has forward spin on it, hit off center (which will send it to the rail so not really forward), or if it is heavier than the mass of the rack (which it will never be). The exact same is true if it is a single ball you are hitting and not a rack.

Even if it bounces off, it will continue to go away from the rack unless it has forward spin to either stop it or make it go forward.

During non competition games hitting center head ball with draw is exactly what I do. Cue ball comes flying back to head rail and then if it has a clear path would go all the way down the table again.

I mainly do this to work on my power shoot accuracy as I don't care about reading a rack and trying to get repeatable patterns (I think that is for panzies).

 

[BRussell]

What you say goes against the simple laws of physics

The cueball will NEVER EVER go forward after hitting the rack unless it has forward spin on it, hit off center (which will send it to the rail so not really forward), or if it is heavier than the mass of the rack (which it will never be). The exact same is true if it is a single ball you are hitting and not a rack.

Even if it bounces off, it will continue to go away from the rack unless it has forward spin to either stop it or make it go forward.

The only other thing I can think of is that if it's in the air when it hits the lead ball it's going to go up and forward. In fact I remember a long thread several months ago where people were trying to understand why many pros seem to like to set the cue ball in flight all the time, and I think that was one of the theories.

 

[Skippy27]

True, if the cue ball is above the center axis of the ball it hits it will follow the tangent line. That is true regardless, but the cue ball will never bounce back and then move forward without forward spin.

 

[JoseV]

If i change my break a little bit I can get the CB to come back past the head string and to the rail, i like this sometimes because the one ball comes up the same way unless other object balls alter the course of the one ball.

Now I never seen a CB push right thru a rack like a bowling ball would go thru bowling pins, but have seen where the CB hits the head ball with forward spin boucle back just a tiny bit delay, then go straight thru the rack after the CB stops pushing backwards while still having forward spin on it.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bottom line: if the cue ball comes back too far, hit it higher. If it spins forward down to the bottom rail, hit it lower. You can tell from what the cue ball does how you need to change your hit. And if you have side spin on the cue ball or don't hit the front ball squarely, you know what to change.

Also, reread Freddie's post above.

 

[ceebee]

Here is where you hit the Cue Ball for a middle table stopping place. There are many Break Shots, lots of research has been done on the Break Shot. It is the first shot in every game, it deserves to be studied.