Mosconi Cup: This is what I saw....

[JAM]

I understand you not wanting to go tit-for-tat, but I enjoy a respectful back and forward or ideas. I don't know you, and I hope that you feel that I'm attacking you. But let's explore the idea that fans are playing professionals in the U.S. Open. This happens in other individual sports as well. I think that some people hear professional and equate a certain skill level to the word. When the literal meaning is simply that someone makes more than half of their income performing activities related to that profession. I would argue that there aren't very many professional pool players in the U.S. because most aren't able to make a living solely off of money that comes from playing pool. At best, I would say that a lot of the players that people consider "professionals" are actually "semi-professionals". However that idea has nothing to do with anyone's skill level. Furthermore, I would argue that because of the lack of professional pool players (or full time pool players) in the U.S. is a big reason why we're getting our butts handed to us in the Mosconi Cup year after year.

Here's is what I wrote in 2004 on this forum: The professional pool player is a rare breed, indeed, and much like the buffalo from the Wild West, they are diminishing in numbers. I have seen numerous GREAT pool players leave the pool racket to pursue a job or another means of income because they desire stability and a roof over their heads.

How the sport will evolve is anybody's guess. I'm not very optimistic, looking at the history-repeats-itself phenomenon. Here in the United States, there are currently world-class players who are dead broke, not because they are poor money managers, but the cost of being a professional pool player exceeds what the sport has to offer currently. It's truly a Catch-22 (IMO)!


Source: --> HERE

Fast forward 12 years to 2016, today, and here is where we are. Not many buffaloes left in the Wild West.

 

[pocono]

Mosconi Cup

This is simple,the American team was outplayed by the European team,they lost,period

 

[sjm]

I don't understand the argument that the conditions that the OP stated are disadvantageous to Americans.

Yes, it appeared that the pockets were wider than pockets that I've seen in other tournaments, but both teams were playing on the same table so everyone benefited from those pockets when they were shooting.

Yes, the races were short, but this was a televised event which means that advertising spots or commercials need to be shown. You can choose to look at the Mosconi Cup as a race to at least 55 (the total minimum number of games needed win); and in that case we lost this year 58 to 41.

Alternate-breaks is not against conventional wisdom here in the states. It is widely debated as to which is the better format. I personally feel that each format has its pros and cons. However, I believe that alternate-break is the better format for a televised match where you have to make the game more digestible to pool laymen. In theory alternate breaks should lead to close matches (which is better for televised matches), but we failed to win 3 games in more than half of the sets that we lost this year.

I believe the cloth used was Simonis 860. Whether you consider that to be a slower cloth or not, both teams were playing on the same table so I don't see the speed of the cloth as a factor in favoring one side over the other.

I do not know if the rails were less lively, but once again both teams were playing on the same table so I don't see the liveliness of the rails as a factor in favoring one side over the other.

Traditionally you don't call shots in 9 ball. The Mosconi Cup has always been a 9 ball match. I only saw one shot this entire Cup that was lucked in, which I don't believe would have changed the outcome of the Cup had Europe been made to turn the table over after the lucky shot.

I agree 100% with every point you made.

 

[ortizmg]

Mosconi Massacre

Everyone just stop... The state of chaos is doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result. It is simple, time to change (period) -- when professional teams of any other sport do not produce, what happens?! (Why should it be different for our sport?) I love and respect the entire team from the coach down to every single player.. And I honestly believe that the Europeans "individually" are not better than us; as we beat them all year long (with the exception of Jayson Shaw who is having an amazing year). So, it's time to pull out the white board (respectfully), you can leave Sky and Justin, but give others a chance Oscar Dominguez, Jorge Rodriguez, and Jeremy Sossei are my picks (why not)..

 

[KRJ]

so i need to identify myself before im allowed to post on an open forum? i dont think so......and when "u" wonder why u get bashed here, just read ure own postings the last few days!

She gets bashed mostly by losers and know it all's that nobody knows. She knows more about pool than you'll ever know. She insulted nobody, she just offered an opinion without attacking.

She has more respect for the game than you'll ever understand. So, bash away, the idea is that "trolls" can control the internet. Posters like JAM and other very good ones come here, less and less, and that is NOT a good thing.

 

[BeiberLvr]

She gets bashed mostly by losers and know it all's that nobody knows. She knows more about pool than you'll ever know. She insulted nobody, she just offered an opinion without attacking.

She has more respect for the game than you'll ever understand. So, bash away, the idea is that "trolls" can control the internet. Posters like JAM and other very good ones come here, less and less, and that is NOT a good thing.

In all of these conversations the past few days, I don't think I've seen one person bash or troll JAM.

By all means though, show me ONE example.

And simply having a different opinion is NOT trolling.

 

[Jaden]

sorry that's not correct

Hearing people make these excuses why we lost this is like the dnc blaming the entirety of there loss to racism. They've kicked our ass for 7 years in a row. They're just better. If your not honest with yourself in defeat you'll never win.

This gets old, because if they were truly better they would consistently out perform the Americans in the tournaments they're both in and that's just not the case.

there are several reasons arguments that could be made about why that is. The most likely in my opinion is a combination of conditions they're not used to and excessive pressure you can't argue home-field versus foreign country because they've lost even when it was in Vegas.

People don't understand that you have to play differently on a wider pocketed table and that when you see that big of a pocket you think you can use it bUT in a lot of cases you can't because they have wider angle facing said pointing to the opposite facing which makes both rattles more likely and missed shots more likely to go in based on the speed of the hit.

A lot of the European players especially the players like Mark gray and Neils the ones that actually live in Europe are more used to playing on those conditions and they will by default play better under those conditions and no I'm not saying that Mark gray is more used to playing on looser tables because he's a primarily a snooker player but on the Euro tour they also play with book and white tables like that.

There is no tour in the US that plays on tables like that consistently.

So now the Europeans are not better than the Americans they played differently and under different conditions and since the mosconi cup is produced by a UK and primarily for the UK Market they're going to continue to set it up to be an advantage for the UK and Europeans.

jaden

 

[BeiberLvr]

This gets old, because if they were truly better they would consistently out perform the Americans in the tournaments they're both in and that's just not the case.

there are several reasons arguments that could be made about why that is. The most likely in my opinion is a combination of conditions they're not used to and excessive pressure you can't argue home-field versus foreign country because they've lost even when it was in Vegas.

People don't understand that you have to play differently on a wider pocketed table and that when you see that big of a pocket you think you can use it bUT in a lot of cases you can't because they have wider angle facing said pointing to the opposite facing which makes both rattles more likely and missed shots more likely to go in based on the speed of the hit.

A lot of the European players especially the players like Mark gray and Neils the ones that actually live in Europe are more used to playing on those conditions and they will by default play better under those conditions and no I'm not saying that Mark gray is more used to playing on looser tables because he's a primarily a snooker player but on the Euro tour they also play with book and white tables like that.

There is no tour in the US that plays on tables like that consistently.

So now the Europeans are not better than the Americans they played differently and under different conditions and since the mosconi cup is produced by a UK and primarily for the UK Market they're going to continue to set it up to be an advantage for the UK and Europeans.

jaden

And the last 5 years when they played on Diamonds?

 

[Paul Schofield]

I don't understand the argument that the conditions that the OP stated are disadvantageous to Americans.

Read the OP again. There is no such argument made.

 

[maestro de pool]

Europe

Besides the spectacular pageantry and the fact that I truly enjoyed the show, this is what I saw:


Big pockets (as compared to our shrinking pockets with deep shelves)

Short races (as compared to race to 11 or 50 or 100)

Alternate-breaks (as compared to winner-breaks)

Slower cloth for easier cue-ball control (like 20 years ago)

Less lively rails for easier banking and cue-ball control (like 20 years ago)

No Ten-Ball (call nothing!)


All of the above is against conventional wisdom here in the states.

and you say this cause you think if they play at the above contitions - rules etc. USA would have won the MC this year?
just curious dont get me wrong

 

[BasementDweller]

Good grief....all Paul is pointing out is that the conditions that were used in the most exciting event of the year are almost exactly opposite of what everyone is always saying pool needs.

It's a point worth considering.

 

[pmac666]

She gets bashed mostly by losers and know it all's that nobody knows. She knows more about pool than you'll ever know. She insulted nobody, she just offered an opinion without attacking.

She has more respect for the game than you'll ever understand. So, bash away, the idea is that "trolls" can control the internet. Posters like JAM and other very good ones come here, less and less, and that is NOT a good thing.

maybe she is the saint of US pool, idk but getting whooped year by year and still blaming the weather for it and dreaming of the good old times instead of accepting the fact that they simply get outplayed (toyed in some cases)!
i, with my little 30 yr experience saw in the 90s why team USA killed us year by year, they were the better players by far and that was to accept! and so i see what happened the last few years, pure dominance, just the other way around! if her knowledge would be that great, she would see that too and very likely accept the fact, but no, everything else is to blame! is anybody wondering that such ignorance backfires? oh, it already does, just look at the last few days!
so, in which way is that trolling or bashing?
(sry for my questionable english)

 

[KRJ]

In all of these conversations the past few days, I don't think I've seen one person bash or troll JAM.

By all means though, show me ONE example.

And simply having a different opinion is NOT trolling.

Of course, our defintions of "trolling" or whatever term you want to use may not be same as yours, and I'm OK with that, but I'll stick by my use of the term. I mean, she mentions one thing, and folks can't wait to pounce, usually the same ones.


u get this wrong, we dont bash the team USA, they have a hard time now anyways, we bash the whiners like u. from: pmc666

 

[abbassi]

The 5 Mosconi European players are probably favored to win against our top 10 players in 9 ball, save for Shane. But Shane's sub par performance makes it impossible (nearly) for us to win. So why the arrogance, accept defeat and get better, and prepare better mentally.

 

[pmac666]

Of course, our defintions of "trolling" or whatever term you want to use may not be same as yours, and I'm OK with that, but I'll stick by my use of the term. I mean, she mentions one thing, and folks can't wait to pounce, usually the same ones.


u get this wrong, we dont bash the team USA, they have a hard time now anyways, we bash the whiners like u. from: pmc666

so calling euros bad winners for no reason is not whining?
and just dont post the part with earl again, it could hurt your nostalgia feelings.......
(btw i didnt forget JA "celebrating" earlier this yr at this 8b event, very classy too )

 

[KRJ]

so calling euros bad winners for no reason is not whining?
and just dont post the part with earl again, it could hurt your nostalgia feelings.......
(btw i didnt forget JA "celebrating" earlier this yr at this 8b event, very classy too )

Then why not just make your point without attacking her. You just made it here, without attacking me. If you got some exemples to counter her argument, have at it. I don't care if your opinion differs. Just seems odd that you came back at me in a more civil tone ? Might have been the right way to start out with, don't you think?

 

[pmac666]

Then why not just make your point without attacking her. You just made it here, without attacking me. If you got some exemples to counter her argument, have at it. I don't care if your opinion differs. Just seems odd that you came back at me in a more civil tone ? Might have been the right way to start out with, don't you think?

lol sry, but Jam (and others) got already countered all over the forum and everyone who once had a cue in their hands saw what happened.....and now instead of accepting the fact and look forward they do excactly the opposite, whining about the races, rolls and weather and dreaming of keith mcgrady in the cup...... and beside that they belittle the euros with their ignorant views!
sry again, but someone who ignores the facts like that should be better prepared for a little backfire than crying trolls everywhere...... or become US president!

 

[jasonlaus]

Then why not just make your point without attacking her. You just made it here, without attacking me. If you got some exemples to counter her argument, have at it. I don't care if your opinion differs. Just seems odd that you came back at me in a more civil tone ? Might have been the right way to start out with, don't you think?

She brings it on herself every single time and then blames everybody else, just like shes blaming everything but the players for the massacre at MC. She bashes Canadians, Europeans, and Americans that face the facts by calling them traitors - unbelievable!

Then says other sports don't have fans talking crap to eachother:rotflmao::rotflmao1: who in their right mind would say or believe something like that.

I wish I didn't have to post this but you kinda get sick of seeing the same thing happen over and over to people who disagree with ANYTHING she says.

I do enjoy alot of her posts but not this crap.
Jason<--------doesn't care, blast away

 

[actionplayer]

Hearing people make these excuses why we lost this is like the dnc blaming the entirety of there loss to racism. They've kicked our ass for 7 years in a row. They're just better. If your not honest with yourself in defeat you'll never win.

spot on.,

It really is embarrassing the excuses people come up with it will never end.

Cue the :lets play svb race to 100 10 ball, pockets need to be smaller ( they were in 13 and USA got thumped) change break rules ( did that also and USA got whooped)

maybe when the " pro" players aren't making there living in the smoke filled cauldron of valley race to 7 tourneys they will actually be able to make a tough shot and play safe.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Besides the spectacular pageantry and the fact that I truly enjoyed the show, this is what I saw:


Big pockets (as compared to our shrinking pockets with deep shelves)

Short races (as compared to race to 11 or 50 or 100)

Alternate-breaks (as compared to winner-breaks)

Slower cloth for easier cue-ball control (like 20 years ago)

Less lively rails for easier banking and cue-ball control (like 20 years ago)

No Ten-Ball (call nothing!)


All of the above is against conventional wisdom here in the states.

I saw big pockets - that both teams were shooting at. It reminded me of a Valley table,

I did notice alternating breaks - which should have at least allowed the American players to
keep pace

Short races - I would guess it has to be that way for the limited time broadcast time.
I don't know in an alternating break format what difference that really makes but
everyone says it makes a huge difference so OK

Slower cloth - It looked OK to me but I don't know. I thought it was Simonis

Less lively Rails - everything looked like it bounced alright, but I could be mistaken

No Ten Ball - I guess because it was a nine ball event. So in Ten ball you have to make
a comment before every shot as to exactly what you're trying to do? If it was Ten ball
then Mike D would have lost 5-0 instead of 5-1.

So no excuses, what do we really think it is? The coach? The players? Are the Euros just
better?

On teams, not just pool, but any team I've ever been on, we were never the biggest
or the fastest but we won a lot of first place trophies. The main thing that most teams
have is that they care about each other.

I never wanted to let my team down, my main job was to make it easier for the guy next to me.
I don't see that with these guys. Pool doesn't really lend itself to being a team sport very easily,
like wrestling, or debate, singles tennis or golf, etc... but you've gotta care about your team, you
have to have enough pride to want to win for the other guys.

I got the feeling these guys didn't even really like each other much.

You can't just all wear the same shirt call yourselves a team, it just don't work like that.
I think the first thing they have to do is get five guys that want to play together.
Maybe you don't get the 5 best players, but you get the 5 that play best together