The cb that changes from sliding to rolling?
To spin or not to spin?
- Thread starter Kevin3824
- Start date
The cb that changes from sliding to rolling?
Yes, this is a good point. IOW, when spin is necessary for more precise play, applying the minimum amount while still getting the job done can eliminate errors that directly result from having used too much. Just a few millimeters off center axis will definitely spin the ball.
A crucial point to learn, IMO. I think my game when up about a ball soon after I realized I didn't need to hit the cueball as far off center in order to achieve the same amount of spin.
I don't know...
So far we have discussed if players use english too often and the general consensus (among the more experienced players) has been that they do not.
Now some are mentioning this idea that when using english players often use more than is necessary. I don't even really agree with this bit of conventional wisdom. If a player uses x amount of english on a shot and he gets the cue ball to land in the intended spot, then he didn't use too much english. It's pretty easy to tell when you use the wrong amount of english because it will be displayed right in front of your face. So this idea that a player mistakenly uses 2 tips of english when they really should be using 1 -- I don't think that is all that accurate. What I do think happens is that as players improve their ability to strike the cue ball more accurately and more smoothly, they are able to move the cue ball around more efficiently. But just because an advanced player can do one thing with the cue ball, it doesn't mean someone with less of a stroke can do the same.
So far we have discussed if players use english too often and the general consensus (among the more experienced players) has been that they do not.
Now some are mentioning this idea that when using english players often use more than is necessary. I don't even really agree with this bit of conventional wisdom. If a player uses x amount of english on a shot and he gets the cue ball to land in the intended spot, then he didn't use too much english. It's pretty easy to tell when you use the wrong amount of english because it will be displayed right in front of your face. So this idea that a player mistakenly uses 2 tips of english when they really should be using 1 -- I don't think that is all that accurate. What I do think happens is that as players improve their ability to strike the cue ball more accurately and more smoothly, they are able to move the cue ball around more efficiently. But just because an advanced player can do one thing with the cue ball, it doesn't mean someone with less of a stroke can do the same.
This whole thing has been discussed a million times before on the forum.
The whole argument is crap and many of the so called "truths" are outright lies!
1. You should use as much spin as you need to get good position on your next ball.
2. You should not use "as little spin as possible". You should use the amount necessary. I don't understand why you people keep wanting people to use less spin than they need! The cueball wil deflect and run/hold up with 1 tips as well as with 2 tips. The difference in difficulty is negligible between the two and can sometimes be in favor of more spin, rather than less. There are no hard and fast rules, and trying to teach beginners that such rules exist will only limit their development. Only experience will show you the right amount.
3. Center ball is not "easier". It really isn't, except in special circumstances where you are jacked up over the rail, over a ball, just hitting a straight in shot or a combination. Center ball will often force you to shoot harder in situations where a spin shot would allow you a soft, controlled stroke. It will cause you go go across the diagonal lines of the table. Playing into the diagonal lines (through the center) is what's going to help you run racks. Straight across/straight up and down is going to get you out of line, and fast! If you watch a shot in complete isolation, some of the time center ball will be easier, but it depends heavily on the cut angle etc..We're usually not playing pool like that, though, are we? We want to run racks, not one and stop.
4. Center ball will push the ball, where a small amount of spin would allow you to cut the ball naturally. What do the pros do to cinch 9balls with a lot of cut to them? That's right. Outside english, two rails out of the corner. Why is that? Well the OE helps with the cut, AND makes sure the cueball goes on a diagonal line through the center of the table, where it cannot scratch!
5. Spin is very usefull, even if no rail is contacted!!!! Why is this obvious thing lied about so much? "English is only used to change the direction off a rail" Every time I read this "gem" I get angry. Whomever spouts this drivel should be immidiately stripped of his teaching credentials! It's a bold face lie or ignorance on an epic scale! Either one of these should be enough to disqualify you from teaching. A person that actually believes this have never played one pocket, straight pool or straight rail, or he sucks at all three!
Example: A ball is blocking another ball from going in, but it could be made with spin. Spin can make shots that would either be too thick or too thin without it, btw
Example B: Two balls are lined up in a combination that barely miss the pocket. There is a gap between them, making it impossible to throw the ball in by just cutting it, and too small to reliably cut the first ball into the right position. By using spin you can transfer the opposite to the first ball in the combination, throwing the second ball in.
Example C: Massè
Example D: After contact massè
Example E: Playing off a ball. Caroming off a ball, like you would a rail. Sidespin is used to either hold the cueball or accelerate the cueball
Example F: Pushing a breakball into position in straightpool. See my thread on the 14.1 forum
Example E: Holding/running the ball. A slightly too large of an angle can be tightened on a draw shot with inside. You can also hold a cueball using outside if you are just stopping it. However there are limits to this. Experience is the teacher.
The whole argument is crap and many of the so called "truths" are outright lies!
1. You should use as much spin as you need to get good position on your next ball.
2. You should not use "as little spin as possible". You should use the amount necessary. I don't understand why you people keep wanting people to use less spin than they need! The cueball wil deflect and run/hold up with 1 tips as well as with 2 tips. The difference in difficulty is negligible between the two and can sometimes be in favor of more spin, rather than less. There are no hard and fast rules, and trying to teach beginners that such rules exist will only limit their development. Only experience will show you the right amount.
3. Center ball is not "easier". It really isn't, except in special circumstances where you are jacked up over the rail, over a ball, just hitting a straight in shot or a combination. Center ball will often force you to shoot harder in situations where a spin shot would allow you a soft, controlled stroke. It will cause you go go across the diagonal lines of the table. Playing into the diagonal lines (through the center) is what's going to help you run racks. Straight across/straight up and down is going to get you out of line, and fast! If you watch a shot in complete isolation, some of the time center ball will be easier, but it depends heavily on the cut angle etc..We're usually not playing pool like that, though, are we? We want to run racks, not one and stop.
4. Center ball will push the ball, where a small amount of spin would allow you to cut the ball naturally. What do the pros do to cinch 9balls with a lot of cut to them? That's right. Outside english, two rails out of the corner. Why is that? Well the OE helps with the cut, AND makes sure the cueball goes on a diagonal line through the center of the table, where it cannot scratch!
5. Spin is very usefull, even if no rail is contacted!!!! Why is this obvious thing lied about so much? "English is only used to change the direction off a rail" Every time I read this "gem" I get angry. Whomever spouts this drivel should be immidiately stripped of his teaching credentials! It's a bold face lie or ignorance on an epic scale! Either one of these should be enough to disqualify you from teaching. A person that actually believes this have never played one pocket, straight pool or straight rail, or he sucks at all three!
Example: A ball is blocking another ball from going in, but it could be made with spin. Spin can make shots that would either be too thick or too thin without it, btw
Example B: Two balls are lined up in a combination that barely miss the pocket. There is a gap between them, making it impossible to throw the ball in by just cutting it, and too small to reliably cut the first ball into the right position. By using spin you can transfer the opposite to the first ball in the combination, throwing the second ball in.
Example C: Massè
Example D: After contact massè
Example E: Playing off a ball. Caroming off a ball, like you would a rail. Sidespin is used to either hold the cueball or accelerate the cueball
Example F: Pushing a breakball into position in straightpool. See my thread on the 14.1 forum
Example E: Holding/running the ball. A slightly too large of an angle can be tightened on a draw shot with inside. You can also hold a cueball using outside if you are just stopping it. However there are limits to this. Experience is the teacher.
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Great post !!!!!!
Jeebus you guys are still arguing the same points. I am almost 100% positive the op was watching Tor Lowry's videos, and has misrepresented the point of Tor's comment and advice.
He states that many players move to (mis)using spin before they completely understand natural position and how to play it. He recommends doing a series of drills without it, and THEN using spin again after they have reset their idea of how to move a ball around the table.
He never recommends to stop using spin forever.
I posted it before, but here it is again.
At 4:00 he talks about how the drills will improve your spin game.
At 3:00 he says the comment which I am pretty sure the OP is talking about.
Listen to the whole section if you so desire though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjousgGLjU
He states that many players move to (mis)using spin before they completely understand natural position and how to play it. He recommends doing a series of drills without it, and THEN using spin again after they have reset their idea of how to move a ball around the table.
He never recommends to stop using spin forever.
I posted it before, but here it is again.
At 4:00 he talks about how the drills will improve your spin game.
At 3:00 he says the comment which I am pretty sure the OP is talking about.
Listen to the whole section if you so desire though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjousgGLjU
If he hit the cueball off center more than was necessary to get that amount of english or to get to that spot, then yes he used too much english. The sense in which it is "too much english" is not about cueball position, but about the amount of cueball deflection you have to compensate for when imparting spin on the cueball.
Well, all I can say is that I disagree with this. For me, at least, having shape where I only need to shoot center ball (with, say, follow) to get position on the next ball versus having to shoot the same follow shot with inside english, center ball is definitely easier.
Yes, Tor Lowry is right. Others, not so much.
Both of you need to reread what I wrote as "more variables" and "more likely (too fail)" was the correct usage there. Less variables, would not make it more likely to fail, nor would more variables make it less likely to fail. I clearly see why we are having such a communication break down.
I have said it multiple times, that spin can be useful and is a good tool but to keep it simple and use it only when you need it just as you would for a jump cue or a kick/bank shot. A player that does not have the basics of cue ball control (vertical axis with tangent line) should not be introducing something like spin into their game as it introduces many other variables into the shot making and cue ball control that are not consistent from one table to another. I have not said to never use spin and would disagree with anyone that does say that as it is simply necessary sometimes.
Ignoring the equipment variables, if a player can't even tell you where the cue ball is going to end up without spin (because they don't understand the physics behind it), then they don't have a chance in hell of telling you where it is going to end up with spin. They have to adjust for deflection and swerve. The tangent line is going to change to account for spin induced throw, which depends on the cleanliness of the balls. Their entry angle into the rail is then changing as well, thus the speed of the shot may change now. In addition, the "slickness" of the balls and cloth as well as the amount of spin are all going to determine how the spin changes the cue ball rebound of off the rail.
The tangent line, 30 degree rule of a rolling cue ball and the trisect rules do not change, regardless of table conditions. Every single time the cue ball comes in contact with a ball it will follow those rules, whether you have spin on it or not. When a non spinning cue ball comes into contact with a rail, its rebound path is extremely predictable and repeatable with entry angle and speed being the only 2 variables changing that. The same cannot be said for a spinning cue ball.
I would be willing to bet that a vast majority of the shots or leaves that you miss, especially the "easy" ones you can't believe you missed are a direct result of you not properly accounting for all the spin variables you are introducing. Yet you could have made that shot without spin, still got into the shot window of the next ball and successfully continue your run. Of course I don't expect you to agree with me on this, as that would be agreeing with my thoughts on spin and we can't have that.
We will simply agree to disagree.
- I feel using spin introduces too many variables thus making the game harder (enhanced for less experience players). You feel introducing all those variables makes the game easier.
- I feel spin should be avoided unless you need it because of those variables, you feel it is needed quite often so they should be ignored.
- I feel spin is inconsistent when you move from equipment to equipment. You feel it is consistent enough.
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Well, if you can get shape like that every time, you should be a pro.
Actually I take it back, the OP states it pretty correctly and it is others here that have run the ball into weird territory. So in that you are correct.
I think this is good advice if you are trying to work on your game. Going back to fundamentals is never a bad idea when trying to improve IMHO. However arguing that spin is unnecessary is extreme and wrong.
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And that is exactly what I am saying, yet being told I am wrong because I am only a lowly APA 6 and can't possibly be correct as it contradicts someone else.
I don't understand what you're talking about. You said shooting center ball was not easier than shooting with sidespin. What does how well I can play shape have to do with that issue?
I think that Straightpool_99's post was fine, and that the bullet on center ball addresses the notion that poster's say that playing shape to use vertical center is easier (for any rack of a game, not just one specific shot in the rack).
At some point in the rack (and 50-80% is a range bandied about), one is going to find that shooting position for a shot that would normally be shot with english not only is easier, but absolutely standard. Every shot can't be played for a center follow or draw. That's just impossibly difficulty to even try compared to playing for an angle and using (as an example) the clock system to get the whatever line.
Freddie
I am glad you corrected your post. It saves a lot of typing.
Also, note that the ONLY ones saying to never use spin are those that advocate using english all the time. THEY are the ones stating that those that are actually advocating only using english when necessary are stating that one should never use english. It happens every time and by the same people on here every time the subject is discussed.
Maybe it is like driving? More than one way to get there but some ways are better than others...and one wat
is the best.
is the best.
Well, I wasn't talking about what shots are easier to play shape for, so if that's what he was saying then I don't disagree. Obviously sometimes shooting with english is preferable to shooting with center ball, and there are also shots I think that are easier to pocket and play shape off of with english than with center ball.
When he said, "Center ball is not easier," I thought his claim was that, in general, shooting a shot with center ball is not easier than shooting a shot with english, and I think there are clear counterexamples to that claim.